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Sunday or the Sabbath?

A

aj830

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This is a split off of the "Catholic Apostacy" Thread where RND put forward that Protestants should hold the Sabbath as the holy day of worship instead of Sunday because was only changed due Catholic authority.

However, I would put forward that was not changed just because the bishops felt like changing it at their whim. Even though the Church is given the authority for this there is still much reason for Protestants to hold to Sunday worship. Besides the Scriptural evidence of Christians worshipping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath(Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10) there is also tons of evidence that the early Church celebrated on the Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath(The Didache, The Letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Magnesians) with people being directly taught by the Apostles saying very clearly that they worshiped on the Lord's Day and "no longer observed the Sabbath".

Please weigh in on this issue.
 
aj830 said:
This is a split off of the "Catholic Apostacy" Thread where RND put forward that Protestants should hold the Sabbath as the holy day of worship instead of Sunday because was only changed due Catholic authority.

The catholic hierarchy itself claims that it changed the sabbath.



However, I would put forward that was not changed just because the bishops felt like changing it at their whim. Even though the Church is given the authority for this there is still much reason for Protestants to hold to Sunday worship.

The church has no authority to change anything that God has written. Period.

Besides the Scriptural evidence of Christians worshipping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath(Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10) there is also tons of evidence that the early Church celebrated on the Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath(The Didache, The Letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Magnesians) with people being directly taught by the Apostles saying very clearly that they worshiped on the Lord's Day and "no longer observed the Sabbath".

Oy vey! Another whole Bible study.

Hey, if you "break the law" does it matter if you do it willfully? Does it matter if you tech people to break the law?

Acts 20:7 - If you read it in context, you should be celebrating on Saturday at midnight:

This was Paul's last meeting with a small group of believers in “Troas.†It was at night (20:7-8), on the “first day of the week.†Biblically, the day begins at sunset. Genesis 1.5,8; Luke 23:54, etc. Therefore this meeting took place on a Saturday night. The New English Bible says, “on Saturday night.†Paul preached his farewell sermon, “ready to depart on the morrow.†Sunday morning, at the “break of day,†while Luke “sailed,†Paul began his 25 mile trip “to Assos.†Thus Paul traveled many miles that Sunday. He had been in Troas for “seven days†(vs. 6). A simple count reveals that they arrived on the previous Sunday, stayed for a week, and had their last meeting on that Saturday night, which would have been right after the Sabbath. Not far from Troas, Paul kept the Sabbath. Acts 16:11-13. The book of Acts mentions Sunday only 1 time, yet the Sabbath is mentioned,11 times (1:12; 13:14,27,42,44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4). A careful study of this “Saturday Night in Troas - Sunday Travel to Assos†account is proof that Paul did not keep Sunday holy.

1 Corinthians 16:2 - The context and other Scriptures reveal that Paul was raising a “collection†for needy believers in “Jerusalem†(vs. 3) during a time of famine. See Acts 11:27-30; Romans 15:25-26. On “the first day of a the week†(Sunday), “let every one†(individually), “lay by him†(Lit. Greek “at homeâ€Â), “in store†(in storage), a certain amount. The Greek “by him in store†reveals that this was to be done in their homes. The first day of the week was ideal for the Corinthian believers to look back on the previous week, examine their finances, and set aside a weekly contribution. This would then be gathered and made ready for Paul, “that there be no gatherings when I come.†Paul was going to pass through Corinth. He wanted the money ready for him to pick up. This was an emergency situation and not their regular practice, for Paul had to give them “orders†to do what they were not normally doing (vs. 1). Paul said nothing here about a church service or the resurrection.

Colossians 2:16-17
- This is one of the most misused passages in the entire New Testament. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us ... nailing it to his cross.†(Verse 14). The law that was “blotted out†and nailed to the cross was not the Ten Commandments. Luke 16:17-18; Romans 7:7,12; James 2:10-12. It was the “handwriting†of the “law†of sacrifices written by “Moses†in “a book†which was a continual witness “against†Israel. Deuteronomy 31:24-26. This law of sacrifices was “against them†because its very existence was a witness that they had broken the Ten Commandments. That's why they needed to offer lambs.

“Therefore,†wrote Paul in Colossians 2:16. “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come.†Verses 16-17. Paul here refers to the Jewish “feasts ... meat offerings ... drink offerings†AND YEARLY “SABBATHS†OF THE CEREMONIAL LAW. Leviticus 23:37,24,32,38. These yearly sabbaths, like the Passover and the Day of Atonement, were “shadows†pointing forward to Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:1 also affirms that it was the ceremonial law with its yearly sabbaths and “sacrifices†that was a “shadow.†Hebrews 10:1.

The Ten Commandments and the Creation Sabbath are NOT A SHADOW pointing forward to Jesus. The seventh day Sabbath POINTS BACK to the creation of the world and remains in the New Testament. Exodus 20:11; Matthew 24:20; Luke 23:56. Paul continued to keep this Sabbath. Acts 16:13.

Revelation 1:10 - John was “in the Spirit on the Loday†when he received the book of Revelation. Revelation 1:10. Jesus said, “the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.†Matthew 12:8. Many believe Sunday is “the Lord's day,†yet the Bible says, “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord.†Exodus 20:10. In the book of Revelation, given to John on the Sabbath, Jesus Christ warned, “all the world wondered after the beast.†Revelation 13:3.



You got served baby!
 
aj830 said:
This is a split off of the "Catholic Apostacy" Thread where RND put forward that Protestants should hold the Sabbath as the holy day of worship instead of Sunday because was only changed due Catholic authority.

However, I would put forward that was not changed just because the bishops felt like changing it at their whim. Even though the Church is given the authority for this there is still much reason for Protestants to hold to Sunday worship. Besides the Scriptural evidence of Christians worshipping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath(Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10) there is also tons of evidence that the early Church celebrated on the Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath(The Didache, The Letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Magnesians) with people being directly taught by the Apostles saying very clearly that they worshiped on the Lord's Day and "no longer observed the Sabbath".

Please weigh in on this issue.

Well, I hope you realize you opened another can of worms because there were many heated debates regarding Saturday vs Sunday worship already on these forums.

But I will give you my understanding on the subject. Technically, the Sabbath is the Sabbath and that is Saturday. I find nowhere that changed it to Sunday. Yes, the sacred calendar had on it Sunday for the Firstfruits (Christ's resurrection) and Pentecost (the Spirit coming) but those days were only two days a year and in itself does not justify worshiping weekly on a Sunday. Sunday is not only the first day of the week, but likened unto the eighth day as well. Eight represents a New Heavens and New Earth, and will definitely play a role in the things to come. However, first Christ must return and the millennial Kingdom must come. This is associated with the number 7 or Sabbath in Scriptures. However, that being said, I will not make it a "salvation issue" or "salvation testing" since the calendar days were "shadows of things to come" but the "substance is Christ". Christ transcends time and space and Paul recognized the spirit of the Law and calendar as opposed to legalistically worshiping that way.

Let me comment on each of the verses you brought up:

Acts 20:7--- where does it say this the day of worship? It only mentions the day of the week that they broke bread.

I Corinthians 16:2: This is talking about offerings (in which tithes and firstfruits are a touchy subject these days unto otherwise holy rollers). Paul was stating the importance of taking an offering that the start of the week--- the firstfruits (and this is not the tithe) is to go to the Lord. We take out the first to the Lord at the start of all our endeavors, but we can still worship Him when the week closes.

Revelation 1:10. John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. When was that? Everyone in Christendom defines that as Sunday, and therefore that justifies Sunday worship. But in reality, it does not say. This is circular reasoning. Some believe that "the Lord's Day" was the same as "the Day of the Lord" or end-time vision. IN other words, John was saying that he was in the Spirit witnessing visions of the "Day of the Lord".

I will say this much. It does not matter if that is Saturday or Sunday. It has nothing to do with worship times. Rather, IMO and understanding, this has to do with the sacred calendar where the "feast of the trumpets" represents Christ's return. For sure, he had these visions probably "on a weekend". Personally, I believe Christ will return either on a Saturday or Monday based on this passage considering the sacred calendar does not have the "feast of trumpets" occurring on a Sunday. But in the next passage, John is told to "come up hither" representing a type of church that Christ takes up to be with Him.

Now after all this, the verse that you gave, Colossians 2:16-17 is the very reason why I won't make the legalistic keeping of either Saturday or Sunday a salvation issue. As with meats, I think Paul was quite precise that the days of the week regarding worship. To some people, one day is esteemed above another. To others, every day is esteemed alike. Paul understood these were shadows that were cast by the substance, Christ. If we are in Christ, we are in the borders of doing the right thing in Him without regards to legalistically keeping them.
 
cybershark5886 said:
:smt107 Oh no, not this topic again! Nooooooooo........ :D

Yeah, again....but this time between a catholic and an Adventist! Watch the fur fly. Watch the catholic obfuscate and the Adventist throw the Book at 'em!

Frankly, if I was the catholic, I'd get plenty of band-aids now!
 
The catholic hierarchy itself claims that it changed the sabbath. The church has no authority to change anything that God has written. Period.

I can see this is going to turn into a Authority debate. Actually the Church does have the power to bind and loose things. The authority was given by Christ himself and the Holy Spirit protects the Church in this matter. Even though Protestants don't accept this authority, I was stating that they had ample reason to still worship on Sunday.

Oy vey! Another whole Bible study.

So if all your interpretation's are correct of these scriptures, why did the the early Church go so completley wrong and worship and celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday instead of observing the Sabbath? Did the Church just immeaditley drop into heretical teaching, even though Christ said the gates of hell will not prevail?
 
If you want to Worship God on Saturday; by all means please do, I don't believe someone should judge anyone on the day they Worship the Lord. It should be a daily devotion in the Christians life. I will ALWAYS Worship on Sunday, am I going to Hell? NO!!! Those that don't accept Christ as Lord go to Hell... More then that on this topic is really just your opinions, just like this was..
 
aj830 said:
I can see this is going to turn into a Authority debate. Actually the Church does have the power to bind and loose things.

Not over me it doesn't. I will never bow a knee to Baal.

The authority was given by Christ himself and the Holy Spirit protects the Church in this matter. Even though Protestants don't accept this authority, I was stating that they had ample reason to still worship on Sunday.

That's the point. Most protestant do accept Rome's aledged eccleiseastical power and authority by accepting her day of worship, not the Bible's.

So if all your interpretation's are correct of these scriptures, why did the the early Church go so completley wrong and worship and celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday instead of observing the Sabbath?

It's a debateable point that ALL 'early' church Christians obersrved sunday. When Christians were being seved up to the lions, they looked like everyone else, but they worshipped on saturday making them an easy mark because of their Judaizing.

Gentile Christian judaizing in the first and second centuries CE

Did the Church just immeaditley drop into heretical teaching, even though Christ said the gates of hell will not prevail?

May I answer you question with a question? Didn't Paul clearly state that even in his day the 'mystery of iniquity' was already at work? Of course he did. So there's you answer. The gospel has prevailed, but not without some trials and persecutions (especially those done by the Romanist's).
 
Hi RND,

Before you settle any questions concerning Protestants or Catholics, you need to address the following issue:

What I am seeing are the echoes of Ellen G White in your responses. Before you settle on any point of doctrine you need to settle the issue of Ellen G White - was she an authentic prophetess? IF she was a false prophetess, and you are promolgating her teaching and prophesy then you need to consider where you, and the SDA movement are in relation to the 'whore that rides the beast.' Notice my use of the cautionary word 'IF'.
This issue is a central one that needs to be addressed and this will dictate the course of your debate(s). It is an issue of life and death for you - take it up with the Lord of the Sabbath and His word.
 
Hey stranger!

stranger said:
Before you settle any questions concerning Protestants or Catholics, you need to address the following issue:

Well, actually I don't "need" to....you want me to. There's a difference.

What I am seeing are the echoes of Ellen G White in your responses. Before you settle on any point of doctrine you need to settle the issue of Ellen G White - was she an authentic prophetess?

In my mind, no.

IF she was a false prophetess, and you are promolgating her teaching and prophesy then you need to consider where you, and the SDA movement are in relation to the 'whore that rides the beast.' Notice my use of the cautionary word 'IF'.

Well, IF I don't consider her a prophetess then it would be unlikely I would consider her a false prophetess.

This issue is a central one that needs to be addressed and this will dictate the course of your debate(s).

No, it doesn't dictate my debate, but maybe your understanding of it. It should be made abundantly clear I became a "sabbatarian" before I ever knew who EGW was.

It is an issue of life and death for you - take it up with the Lord of the Sabbath and His word.

Um, all issues are "life" and "death" in the Word. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Lord help us...please don't play the EGW card again especially on this topic. EGW rejected the Sabbath initially from two other Adventist pioneers who got it from the Seventh Day Baptists. It was only later that she embraced it.

There are only two options folks:

1) Either the Seventh Day Sabbath (Saturday) is still valid and binding on Christians

or

2) Christ fulfilled the Sabbath day thus eliminating the Old Covenant observance of it (Luther's view)

Sunday sacredness does not play a part at all. It is a fabrication of the Church, not Christological and definitely not apostolic. Sunday did not replace the Sabbath (Calvin and Rome's view) nor was it the day that the apostolic church met to worship and observe. Either you follow the Sabbath or you don't follow it at all. Replacing it with the first day of the week is not biblical. All the Sunday Sabbatarians have no leg to stand on and no right or reason to demand that the government start observing the 'Ten Commandments including Sunday observance'.

This is false teaching.
 
Good post guibox. Great clairty.

It is diffcult to point this out to folks because it seems only natural some will deny and obfuscate; twist simple logic, and clear reason and finally God's Holy Word as much as they can to get their square peg of Sunday into the round hole of the Sabbath.
 
Gentlemen,

The discussion I am having presupposes that there is nothing in scripture that changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. My interest is in how other 'interpretations' come into play as 'standard' with the SDA movement and how this affects how they see the Sabbath.

As for EGW - yes that is relevant in SDA history and the theological thought of the movement. Take her out of the picture would be like saying Luther is not relevant to Lutherans or on a less well known note, Laestadius to Laestadians.

Other SDA 'interpretations' also come into play around the issue of the Sabbath - so there are many cross currents.
 
guibox wrote:
Lord help us...please don't play the EGW card again especially on this topic. EGW rejected the Sabbath initially from two other Adventist pioneers who got it from the Seventh Day Baptists. It was only later that she embraced it.

See other post about the relevance of Luther to Lutherans (cf EGW to SDA's). Good point though - there were three key founders of the SDA.


There are only two options folks:

1) Either the Seventh Day Sabbath (Saturday) is still valid and binding on Christians
or
2) Christ fulfilled the Sabbath day thus eliminating the Old Covenant observance of it (Luther's view)

There is a third option which does not include the word 'eliminating' - God invites us (Christians) to enter the Sabbath rest and not only enter but to 'strive to enter'. This is found in Hebrews 3/4. The Sabbath rest is where its at!

Sunday did not replace the Sabbath, fair enough in the current discussion. But I would add the Sabbath rest replaces everything including the old creation.

Either you follow the Sabbath or you don't follow it at all.

Again, either you have entered the Sabbath rest or you have not

Replacing it with the first day of the week is not biblical.

Agreed - it being the Sabbath.

Was it Crosby who wrote: 'heaven came down and glory filled my soul?' - I believe this refers to the blessed 'Sabbath rest.'
 
Stranger:
What I am seeing are the echoes of Ellen G White in your responses. Before you settle on any point of doctrine you need to settle the issue of Ellen G White - was she an authentic prophetess?

RND:
In my mind, no.

In your opinion was she a false prophetess?
 
stranger said:
Stranger:
What I am seeing are the echoes of Ellen G White in your responses. Before you settle on any point of doctrine you need to settle the issue of Ellen G White - was she an authentic prophetess?

I think I answered that question already. Stranger, let's not sidetrack the discussion with discussions of whether I think EGW was a prophetess. I answered no. That should suffice. Besides, what is an "authentic prophetess" anyway? Do they come with a certificate of origin or aunthenticity like those little cars with the movable tire and wheels that you can buy on QVC?

In your opinion was she a false prophetess?

Another question I answered stranger. I said that if I didn't think she was a prophetess, it would stand to reason that I would not consider false either. I've read her books and from what I've read I certainly don't believe she did anything because she lacked any amount of love for Jesus Christ.
 
RND wrote:
I think I answered that question already. Stranger, let's not sidetrack the discussion with discussions of whether I think EGW was a prophetess. I answered no. That should suffice. Besides, what is an "authentic prophetess" anyway? Do they come with a certificate of origin or aunthenticity like those little cars with the movable tire and wheels that you can buy on QVC?

An authentic prophetic would be a true prophetic sent by God. I do believe God calls prophets and certifies them - if you want to put it that way.

Another question I answered stranger. I said that if I didn't think she was a prophetess, it would stand to reason that I would not consider false either. I've read her books and from what I've read I certainly don't believe she did anything because she lacked any amount of love for Jesus Christ.

The loophole which I introduced (my fault) by 'IF' inadvertently is a logical one. For example:

If I didn't believe in ghosts then I wouldn't believe I saw one last week. This does not reveal whether or not I actually believe in ghosts, and so it was with our previous discussion.

So you are an SDA who doesn't believe that EGW was a prophetess at all. This poses a question for me: Did EGW consider that she was a prophetess herself?

I know that many historical figures stand condemned - I like to evaluate each with a presumption of innocence.
 
One thing is for sure' I and others here have had this conversation many times before. But I never get tired of this one' for some reason. The Catholics did this with the Sunday Law edict in 321 if I can remember right. And another thing Jesus still did the temple thing on Saturday. And God did not give a command to change the Sabbath.
 
Lewis W said:
One thing is for sure' I and others here have had this conversation many times before. But I never get tired of this one' for some reason. The Catholics did this with the Sunday Law edict in 321 if I can remember right. And another thing Jesus still did the temple thing on Saturday. And God did not give a command to change the Sabbath.

Thank you for you imput and clarity.
 
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