Sympathy for the Lost

[mutzrein]

My bible does not tell me that anyone is in hell . . . yet.

However it does say that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. And Jesus said that this is only possible if man is born again. This is the ONLY way that man can 'believe' in Christ. And as John 3:16 says if man does not believe in Him then he will perish.

How is it that 'perishing' is interpreted to mean suffering in hell for ever?

 

[joechrist]

Should we feel sympathy for the good people burning in hell right now. For example, Gandhi, who seemed to live a good life and taught a good message, but was not a follower of Christ, is burning in hell. Does anyone else struggle with whether or not to feel sympathy for these type of people or should we just see it as that's what they deserve for not accepting God's gift of salvation?

Having been very close to death myself a few years ago, I can tell you that there is a 'place' when the body is near death but the mind is still aware that is its own little realm of existence where it is quite possible for anything to happen.
Can we know for certain that Christ did not come to some of these WE think might be in hell and speak to them before they actually died ?

I am as far from UR as one can get, I do not believe that the soul who rejects salvation will attain it.
But I also do not believe that God will let even one slip away whom He knows would repent and come to Him willingly.

While I do feel sympathy for anyone who suffers, I personally believe that when we get there that we will be amazed to find folks that we would have never guessed would be there are actually there.
Just an opinion, tho.
As for those who do not want to be saved...I dont want them to suffer, but since Im not God I dont really have anything I can do about it...and Im not going to drive myself nuts because they rejected God when they should have embraced their Creator.

What if they did not reject God but instead had a different understanding of God than you.

 

[joechrist]

jesus said he was the only way to God and eternal life. If we start looking at a persons actions as his entrance into heaven we will be teaching a message that is not the true Gospel.

Ah, very good points Ed. In John 14:6 Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.â€Â

But how exactly is Jesus the way? He obviously is talking figuratively for certainly we do not pass through His physical body. So how should we understand this figuratively? One teaching would be that we must be His obedient followers, professing His name as our savior, and that if we were to know Jesus and His teachings and yet shun Him and profess another as our savior, certainly we would not be following Jesus as the way, truth, and life. By knowing Jesus and substituting someone else as savior we err, grievously.

But what if we do not know Jesus? What about people who are born in remote jungles, who live and die never knowing a Christian or even hearing Jesus’ name? What about babies who are born and die before they can even ever comprehend human speech? Do those infants and those aborigines spend eternity in Hell for not professing with their lips, Jesus as their savior? Is it Jesus’ name and His personal identity as God incarnate that we must know that saves us? Or is it Jesus’ teachings and way of life that we must obey to be saved?

This dilemma forces us to go back to the original question above, how exactly is Jesus the way? If we search deeper into Jesus’ teachings, we know that before Jesus came the Jews believed that the way to Heaven was through the law. And since they had the law and the Gentiles did not, obviously they were going to Heaven and the Gentiles were excluded. Jesus came to dispel those errors. He showed His disciples that the way to the Father was through faith, not works (the law.) And we showed this faith through obedience to His commands. Consider these quotes of Jesus in John chapter 14:

Verse 12 “’I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing…’â€Â
Verse 15 “’If you love me, you will do what I command.’â€Â
Verse 21 “’Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by the Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.’â€Â
Verse 23 “Jesus replied ‘If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching…’â€Â

These verses do not explicitly say that we have to call on Jesus’ name, nor do they say that His name is irrelevant, but what they do point out so clearly is that the Lord Himself stressed over and over again the necessity for our obedience to His commands. So did Ghandi obey His commands? None of us truly knew Ghandi, personally, and the accounts we have of him seem to suggest that much of what he did was in accordance with what Jesus taught while He was with us. Did Ghandi pray to multiple Gods? I don’t know. And if he did, did he know fully about Christ, and shun him in preference for those pagan Gods? I don’t know that either. But, given what Jesus himself said, if we assume that Ghandi’s life shows proof of his obedience to the saviors commands, and given what Paul says in Rom 2:12-16, if we cannot conclusively know that Ghandi knew full well about God and Jesus, then I for one am very lithe to judge Ghandi of going to Hell.

Jesus said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.†I believe strongly that He meant that, humbly recognizing God as holy and ourselves as fallen, repentance from our sins, and loving one another were His way, and truth that lead to life everlasting. Anyone who has His teachings, whether they know His name or not, have Him.

You have hit the nail on the head my friend. This is a very good post and it brings forth the point which I intended when I started this thread.

 

[Tina]

^
Romans 10:9-13

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."For there is no difference between Jew and Gentileâ€â€the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."



:amen

 

[mutzrein]

For me the dilemma is not whether or not Jesus is the way or indeed 'how' He is the way, but how we have strayed into an understanding of automatically substituting 'suffer in hell for ever' whenever we read the word 'perish'.

How come no-one wants to answer that?

God doesn't send 'innocents' to hell whether they are from a tribe in deepest darkest wherever that has never heard the gospel or whether through intellectual inability to comprehend the gospel. My bible says they perish. They are not judged and sent to suffer in hell for ever. Is God not a just and righteous God?

 

[Ed the Ned]

What if they did not reject God but instead had a different understanding of God than you.

I better call my brothers and sisters in the mission field back home and tell them to relax, there is no need to go out and proclaim Jesus any more as any individual who has any perception of God (Which God, it does not matter) and who he is will be saved as long as they are good.
Why are we told to go out and preach the Gospel if as long as I am a good guy I will be saved. I think the bible is pretty clear on the instruction given to us. Proclaim the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Please don't water down the gospel as to allow other religions to infiltrate it and corrupt it.

 

[joechrist]

What if they did not reject God but instead had a different understanding of God than you.

I better call my brothers and sisters in the mission field back home and tell them to relax, there is no need to go out and proclaim Jesus any more as any individual who has any perception of God (Which God, it does not matter) and who he is will be saved as long as they are good.
Why are we told to go out and preach the Gospel if as long as I am a good guy I will be saved. I think the bible is pretty clear on the instruction given to us. Proclaim the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Please don't water down the gospel as to allow other religions to infiltrate it and corrupt it.[/quot

The statement was made that someone deserves hell if they reject God. So the question remains, what if they do not reject God, but just have a different understanding?

 

[Ed the Ned]

please define what you mean by understanding of God.Muslims believe in Allah and they call him God. They have a different understanding of God. So are they saved if they have been good?

 

[bleitzel]

You have hit the nail on the head my friend. This is a very good post and it brings forth the point which I intended when I started this thread.

Why, thank you Joe!

 

[bleitzel]

^
Romans 10:9-13

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."For there is no difference between Jew and Gentileâ€â€the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Hi Tina, I agree with this text in that those who know of God (our God, Yahweh, and His son Jesus) and call on His name will be saved. Providing they also believe in their heart, etc. But for those who don't know or never hear His name, I believe they can still do the things required in this quote to be saved. Namely, because of all the evidence in creation, because of the majesty in the heavens and on Earth, they can know that there is a God and believe in their heart. And they can confess with their mouths that they are humbled and are not worthy and that God is righteous and holy, whoever they understand God to be. Even people who never hear of Yahweh or Jesus can look at all of creation and as the text declares, believe in their heart and confess with their mouth.

 

[mutzrein]

. . . Even people who never hear of Yahweh or Jesus can look at all of creation and as the text declares, believe in their heart and confess with their mouth.

Whoa there! Confess with their mouth . . . what?

Jesus said that man (or woman) cannot see or enter the kingdom of heaven UNLESS he (or she) is born again.

 

[Ed the Ned]

Hi Tina, I agree with this text in that those who know of God (our God, Yahweh, and His son Jesus) and call on His name will be saved. Providing they also believe in their heart, etc. But for those who don't know or never hear His name, I believe they can still do the things required in this quote to be saved. Namely, because of all the evidence in creation, because of the majesty in the heavens and on Earth, they can know that there is a God and believe in their heart. And they can confess with their mouths that they are humbled and are not worthy and that God is righteous and holy, whoever they understand God to be. Even people who never hear of Yahweh or Jesus can look at all of creation and as the text declares, believe in their heart and confess with their mouth.

Why the great commission then???? Why must we go out and proclaim the gospel if this is the case?????
There is only one GOD and he wants to be worshipped as one GOD not mans perception of God. I am not trying to be argumentitive but your veiwpoint seems to be very similar to the gospel of Oprah!

 

[joechrist]

Hi Tina, I agree with this text in that those who know of God (our God, Yahweh, and His son Jesus) and call on His name will be saved. Providing they also believe in their heart, etc. But for those who don't know or never hear His name, I believe they can still do the things required in this quote to be saved. Namely, because of all the evidence in creation, because of the majesty in the heavens and on Earth, they can know that there is a God and believe in their heart. And they can confess with their mouths that they are humbled and are not worthy and that God is righteous and holy, whoever they understand God to be. Even people who never hear of Yahweh or Jesus can look at all of creation and as the text declares, believe in their heart and confess with their mouth.

Why the great commission then???? Why must we go out and proclaim the gospel if this is the case?????
There is only one GOD and he wants to be worshipped as one GOD not mans perception of God. I am not trying to be argumentitive but your veiwpoint seems to be very similar to the gospel of Oprah!

Jesus was sent here to save everyone from their sins so that we may have life. This was not a conditional sacrifice. God did not send Jesus to die only for those certain few that do something in return. God wanted to express his unconditional love, not his conditional love. To say that we as humans are required to say or think certain things in order to earn God's love is totally misconstruing the character of God. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. You must go out and proclaim the gospel because that is the message of God's love that everyone needs to hear. But if you're spreading the wrong message then you are completely defeating the purpose of the gospel.

 

[Ed the Ned]

Jesus was sent here to save everyone from their sins so that we may have life. This was not a conditional sacrifice. God did not send Jesus to die only for those certain few that do something in return. God wanted to express his unconditional love, not his conditional love. To say that we as humans are required to say or think certain things in order to earn God's love is totally misconstruing the character of God. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. You must go out and proclaim the gospel because that is the message of God's love that everyone needs to hear. But if you're spreading the wrong message then you are completely defeating the purpose of the gospel.

That was the point I was trying to make, God died for all our sins but we need to proclaim the gospel to all people. We cannot think that Jesus died for all our sins so now everyone is saved and we can carry on sinning. There were conditions to everlasting life. And that was we must repent of our sins and proclaim the gospel. Gods love is not conditional but our salvation is!THE ROAD IS NARROW

 

[mutzrein]

Hi guys - I believe the gospel must be preached, however I do not believe that God loves everyone. I hear people say things like, "even if you were the only person on the world, Jesus would have died for you because God loves EVERYONE soooo much".

What scripture do you believe, supports the notion that God's love is unconditional - insofar as it is all inclusive and is extended to every man woman and child.

 

[joechrist]

Jesus was sent here to save everyone from their sins so that we may have life. This was not a conditional sacrifice. God did not send Jesus to die only for those certain few that do something in return. God wanted to express his unconditional love, not his conditional love. To say that we as humans are required to say or think certain things in order to earn God's love is totally misconstruing the character of God. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. You must go out and proclaim the gospel because that is the message of God's love that everyone needs to hear. But if you're spreading the wrong message then you are completely defeating the purpose of the gospel.

That was the point I was trying to make, God died for all our sins but we need to proclaim the gospel to all people. We cannot think that Jesus died for all our sins so now everyone is saved and we can carry on sinning. There were conditions to everlasting life. And that was we must repent of our sins and proclaim the gospel. Gods love is not conditional but our salvation is!THE ROAD IS NARROW

Our salvation is NOT conditional. When God sent Jesus to save the world, he knew exactly how each and every one of us would respond to it. If the sacrifice was conditional, then what was the purpose of sending him in the first place, KNOWING that most people would not know about it or believe it. He would just be carrying out a scenario for spits and giggles. God knew that only 0.0000001%(just throwing out a number) would actually know or witness firsthand the sacrifice of Jesus. He would not expect everyone else to just blindly accept or believe a story told to them by another person. If that were the case, his sacrifice and gift of salvation is completely meaningless and unsuccessful. There is a reason it is called the GIFT of salvation, not the Trade off of salvation. When you give someone a gift, you don't ask for them to give you something before you give them the gift. You just give it to them. This is the message that needs to be proclaimed so that everyone can be thankful for God's gift, not fearful of it. We need to be careful not to spread the wrong message, because distorting such an incredibly important event may result in worse consequences than anything else.

 

[bleitzel]

My bible does not tell me that anyone is in hell . . . yet.

However it does say that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. And Jesus said that this is only possible if man is born again. This is the ONLY way that man can 'believe' in Christ. And as John 3:16 says if man does not believe in Him then he will perish.

How is it that 'perishing' is interpreted to mean suffering in hell for ever?

HI mutzrein, sorry no one wanted to answer this right away. My perception is that the writers of the Bible, the OT and the NT were often grappling with the weightier issues in life. Much different than say the people whre I live in Southern California for whom the hardest decision of the day is very often where will I eat out for lunch today? The Bible's authors are very concerned with among other things, the idea that we will all die one day, and then what? Are we just dead, dead? Or is there something after death?

This perishing that you reference is on the side of the idea of nothing after this life, and sometimes it is accompanied with suffering. The other side of the equation would be there being something after this life, even something blissful and eternal. And since we really don't know what either of those two scenarios is really going to be like the Bible authors speak of them in vague terms.

 

[bleitzel]

God doesn't send 'innocents' to hell whether they are from a tribe in deepest darkest wherever that has never heard the gospel or whether through intellectual inability to comprehend the gospel. My bible says they perish. They are not judged and sent to suffer in hell for ever. Is God not a just and righteous God?

Well, first I wouldn't say that a tribe member in the deepest darkest forest is innocent. There are some tribes that had never heard the Gospel yet were brutal cannibals and they were innocent by no stretch of the imagination.

You do correctly identify the concept of those who have never heard the Gospel or those without the intellectual ability to comprehend the Gospel. Like infants, the mentally handicapped, the insane, etc. But then you say that these ones will perish? Do you mean eternally? I think a much better view of God would say that as the perfect Judge of the universe, He will judge everyone not by the same standard for all, but each according to what He has given them. This works both ways, too. For those whom have less understanding or who never heard the word "Jesus" He will judge them against a lower standard, but those who are teachers and have more understanding He will judge more strictly.

 

[bleitzel]

I better call my brothers and sisters in the mission field back home and tell them to relax, there is no need to go out and proclaim Jesus any more as any individual who has any perception of God (Which God, it does not matter) and who he is will be saved as long as they are good.
Why are we told to go out and preach the Gospel if as long as I am a good guy I will be saved. I think the bible is pretty clear on the instruction given to us. Proclaim the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Please don't water down the gospel as to allow other religions to infiltrate it and corrupt it.

Ed, Paul says that when the Gentiles who do not have the law do that which is required by the law they show that they have the law written on their hearts (paraphrasing Rom 214-?), and that God's invisible qualities have been clearly seen in creation so that men are without excuse (paraphrasing Rom 1:19-?) he is saying that humans can perceive who God is even wothout missionaries. Not that any god-substitute will do. But perceiving God from nature is only one way we have of knowing Him. Another way is thrrough His word, so we are called to preach His Gospel throughout all the earth to aid our brothers and sisters in seeing the truth.

Other religions are false religions and are not acceptable, but the one true God, the God of the universe, His majesty can be perceived even form His very creation, without even knowing His name.

 

[bleitzel]

please define what you mean by understanding of God.Muslims believe in Allah and they call him God. They have a different understanding of God. So are they saved if they have been good?

Islam, and the other world's religions, have many teachings that stray away from the character of God and are false religions. However, if a Muslim who studies the Bible , personally rejects the incorrect teachings of Islam and follows the commands of the God of the Bible, then I believe the perfectly just judge may well grant him eternal life.