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Tal Bachman on Humanists and Catholics

Pizzaguy

Member
Many years ago a guy named Randy Bachman served as a gutarist for "The Guess Who" and then with Bachman Turner Overdrive - two 60's/70's rock groups. Eventually, he fathered a son, Tal Bachman. Tal enjoyed a short career as a singer (and I guess a longer one as a songwriter).

Tal also blogs online. I found this blog from almost a year ago, and found it interesting, and thought I'd post it. (It was easier than writing somethign of my own to post, and since I spend 1-3 hours a day learning Japanese I don't really have time to be here anyway!)

Unreasonable Reason


One version of the story of the last three hundred years is that the intellectual movement known as The Enlightenment spearheaded a glorious change in human affairs, in which the shackles of dark religious superstition were cast off and replaced by the light of human reason. Popery and priests were out; science and logic were in, and amazing increases in human well-being would ensue.

We now have cell phones and aeroplanes, microwaves and computers, MRI machines and laproscopic surgery. Those are very nice things. But in the immediate wake of the Enlightenment, we had the almost insanely savage French Revolution, followed by Napoleon's tear through Europe, and then a century after that, we had the two most savage wars in human history (which included historically unprecedented genocide). And they were fought mostly by the most scientifically advanced nations ever. Moreover, in the wake of World War II, we had tens of millions of people tortured and butchered by communist regimes in service to the aims of their "one true social science". Our technology has improved. The problem is, we haven't.

Actually, the problem is worse than that, because it's not just that we haven't changed - it's that we can't. Despite all our longings otherwise, we remain human. That means we still love, and we still hate; we still unite, and we still divide; still share, and still steal. And this will never change, no matter how much more technology we have, or knowledge we possess. Contrary to Thom Yorke's ongoing paranoia, technology doesn't turn us into machines. It just gives us a power we wouldn't otherwise have. And that power can be used for good or for ill. All the while, the human animal remains the same.

Why can't people see this? The silly (if not dangerous) old notion, first purveyed by Plato and regurgitated ad nauseam even nowadays by self-styled "secular humanists", that "knowledge is virtue" - that the more "reasonable" we all are, and the more we all learn, the better people we will all be - has been refuted a million times, in a million different ways, and will be a million more times in the future. Yet it doesn't make any difference at all to the secular humanists, no doubt for the same reason that knowing that the communion wafer doesn't actually "transubstantiate" into the flesh of Jesus doesn't make any difference to the believing Catholic: because these claims are now dogma. They are now identity to these people. They have become unchallengeable articles of faith, beyond the power of any argument or empirical proof to refute. Yet, the truth is, the wafer doesn't become Jesus, and knowledge doesn't become virtue. And that means that "secular humanism" - or to call it by its real name, The Enlightenment - is as much of a fraud as Catholicism. Those who most loudly champion reason over faith, are often as unreasonable as the religious believers they think themselves superior to, if not more so.
 
Be clear on one thing: I do not post this to attack my brothers and sisters in the Catholic church. It is because of Tal's observations about secular humanists that I make the post.

Ok?

And if you think that Tal is not a religious man (after reading the above) go to his blog and read about his recent divorce.
 
Science and knowledge won't lead to salvation. This is a fact that is increasingly ignored as the one True God is increasingly ignored in favor of the Gods of all sorts of knowledge--the God of self-knowledge, the God of Scientific Knowledge, the God of Experience, etc. I think its just idolatry, self-worship, and religious narcissism updated for the 21st century.
 
I really don't think this means much for secular humanism. Mainly because he's not addressing the acts of Secular humanists, he's talking about humanity as a whole and then roping that in with SH. His argument could use some work.
 
It could use a bit of polishing, aye. Still, it's nice to see the fact that humans are fundamentally flawed acknowledged! :yes It never ceases to amaze me that, even though it's absolutely inescapable, so many people in the secular world (and some in the religious) stubbornly believe in man's natural capacity for good and constructive actions.

Whenever I think about this sort of thing, I'm reminded of the song 'Science of Lies' by the Christian band Demon Hunter. Though characteristically crudely put (I'm not a fan of 'heavy metal'), the lyrics definitely make some valid points about the systematized error (Ephesians 4 v 14) which is abroad in the secular and the religious world.
 
Yet, the truth is, the wafer doesn't become Jesus, and knowledge doesn't become virtue. And that means that "secular humanism" - or to call it by its real name, The Enlightenment - is as much of a fraud as Catholicism. Those who most loudly champion reason over faith, are often as unreasonable as the religious believers they think themselves superior to, if not more so.

Very well said! :thumbsup
 
I really don't think this means much for secular humanism. Mainly because he's not addressing the acts of Secular humanists, he's talking about humanity as a whole and then roping that in with SH. His argument could use some work.

How do you figure? When secular humanism infiltrates the church, there is always bloodshed. Likewise, when secular humanism is left unchallenged, it ends in bloodshed. I believe that point could be derived out of what was written.
 
How do you figure? When secular humanism infiltrates the church, there is always bloodshed.
The author never really demonstrates how secular humanism fails. Also, can you demonstrate what about secular humanism causes blood shed? Secular humanism can't actually enter a church, humanism can enter a church philosophy though.
Likewise, when secular humanism is left unchallenged, it ends in bloodshed.
This is a result of all stances and philosophies.
I believe that point could be derived out of what was written.

And I think the author needs to step back and realize that when any philosophy makes a claim, someone will challenge it, and war is possible if the parties involved can't agree and be let alone.
 
The author never really demonstrates how secular humanism fails. Also, can you demonstrate what about secular humanism causes blood shed? Secular humanism can't actually enter a church, humanism can enter a church philosophy though.
It's like you are TRYING to miss the point (or sound intellectual).
Please re-read the thread, mostly posts 5 and 7.
 
It's like you are TRYING to miss the point (or sound intellectual).
Please re-read the thread, mostly posts 5 and 7.

I don't believe I missed the point, and I agree that we as humans do need to humble ourselves. I also Understand that Secular Humanism is just a stance that states that we as humans are capable of progressing, and don't need religions to do it. That's about it. The author is stating that humanism is flawed because there is still bad actions in the world, and then did the age old cliche of bringing in Stalin and Hitler. Both of which were not secular humanists. I'm not saying we as humans are perfect, far from it. I just think the guy missed the mark and forgot that it dosen't matter which religion or philosophy a person fallows, there are still going to be flaws. Heck, I've been on Christian sites where they go after each others denomination.
 
I don't believe I missed the point, and I agree that we as humans do need to humble ourselves. I also Understand that Secular Humanism is just a stance that states that we as humans are capable of progressing, and don't need religions to do it. That's about it.
When humanism infiltrates the church, something gets thrown out... That's God. That is the point and the author gives an example.


The author is stating that humanism is flawed because there is still bad actions in the world, and then did the age old cliche of bringing in Stalin and Hitler. Both of which were not secular humanists. I'm not saying we as humans are perfect, far from it. I just think the guy missed the mark and forgot that it dosen't matter which religion or philosophy a person fallows, there are still going to be flaws. Heck, I've been on Christian sites where they go after each others denomination.

I didn't read what the author had to say as anything remotely similar to what you've stated.

The basic tenants of the Christian faith acknowledge our sinful nature and as a result, our dependence on Christ. Secular humanism, as the author submitted states that knowledge is our savior as we learn to reason ourselves into a better world. Clearly, as the author has noted this is not the case and yes, Hitler and Stalin were products of the Enlightenment.

The Bible constrains us by keeping us from doing what we can do not because simply put we can do something, but rather it constrains us because just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

By way of reason aka secular humanism, Catholics believe that the bread IS the body and the wine IS the blood of Jesus. Silly how reason can lead us so far away from the truth huh? Even when it's that blatant.
 
Marbleshooter,
While reading a totally separate article related to something all together different than this thread, I unexpectantly stumbled across this.

Adolf Hitler said:
“Providence has ordained that I should be the greatest liberator of humanity. I am freeing man from the restraints of an intelligence that has taken charge, from the dirty and degrading self-mortification of a false vision called conscience and morality, and from the demands of a freedom and independence which only a very few can bear.â€15

Adolf Hitler said:
“The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention; it is a blemish like circumcision.â€16

Adolf Hitler said:
“They refer to me as an uneducated barbarian. Yes, we are barbarians. We want to be barbarians, it is an honored title to us. We shall rejuvenate the world.â€17

And then there’s this stanza of a song sung by the Hitler Youth:

“We are the joyous Hitler Youth,
We do not need any Christian virtue
Our leader is our savior
The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
We want to be pagans once again.â€

15. Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, p. 222.
16. Ibid., p. 220.
17. Ibid., p. 87.

Interestingly enough, we see what Wiki has to say...
Humanism is an approach in study, philosophy, world view or practice that focuses on human values and concerns, attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.
 
Marbleshooter,
While reading a totally separate article related to something all together different than this thread, I unexpectantly stumbled across this.







And then there’s this stanza of a song sung by the Hitler Youth:



15. Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, p. 222.
16. Ibid., p. 220.
17. Ibid., p. 87.

Interestingly enough, we see what Wiki has to say...

Congratulations, you looped a few random snippets of what Hitler has said together and then took a random line from the wikipedia article about humanism and tied it all together. Please, I'm not unfamilar with Hitler's philosophy and what Secular Humanism actually it. Linking random saying together dose not show that their ideologies are the same. It shows that deep down all philosophies are based on an opinion or stance. That's it. Any philosopy ( including christianity) can be linked together, but its the adult/wise person that understand that a few similarities dose not mean everything is a clone of each other.
 
Any philosopy ( including christianity) can be linked together, but its the adult/wise person that understand that a few similarities dose not mean everything is a clone of each other.
Clones is not the right word. The fundamental belief that man can make himself and his world better through his own power and reasoning about right and wrong, good and bad, is the similarity that most certainly puts the ideologies of Hitler and Stalin right at home in a discussion about secular humanism.

Philosophy and human reasoning "lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." (Colossians 2:23 NIV1984) When philosophy and human reasoning creep into the church you see this same lack of restraint (the very reason Paul wrote Colossians 2 & 3), and then people assume Christianity is no different than any failed philosophy in the world. But in truth, the only thing that can change the heart of a man and subdue the untamable storm of sensual desire in the heart of a person is the Spirit of God. And that Spirit does not come from taming and subduing the things surrounding a man, which religion too often erroneously thinks will happen if you impose rigid and austere ceremonies and beliefs on people.

Secular Humanism is just a band aid put on the ills of mankind made up of the beliefs that if you just redefine what sensual desires are good and which remain bad, and remove the opportunities for people to have to act on the bad ones through knowledge and technological advances you will have a healed and healthy human race. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It's amazing how our human appetites will out pace any technological or ideological advance we can dream up. As soon as you put one guideline or rule or technological advance in place to govern human thinking and behavior a new expression of insatiable human appetite will rise up to subvert it and do harm in the world. It's the adult/ wise person who recognizes and acknowledges this truth and who then seeks refuge in Christ from the insanity of it.
 
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Very well said Jethro,
Thank you for your wisdom!
No, thank you! I was inspired by the godly and wise contributions you and others have made in this thread, especially yours. Thank you, and everyone here for giving me a good start on the day thinking and meditating on the truths we have through our faith in Christ.

God bless.
 
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