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Butch5

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This is an abridged explanation of 1 John 2:2 from a reformed prospective
1 John 2:2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Pink, A.W. . The Sovereignty of God (Kindle Locations 4197-4203).

There is one passage more than any other which is appealed to by those who believe in universal redemption, and which at first sight appears to teach that Christ died for the whole human race. We have therefore decided to give it a detailed examination and exposition. “And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). This is the passage which, apparently, most favors the Arminian view of the Atonement, yet if it be considered attentively it will be seen that it does so only in appearance, and not in reality. Below we offer a number of conclusive proofs to show that this verse does not teach that Christ has propitiated God on behalf of all the sins of all men.

In the first place, the fact that this verse opens with “and” necessarily links it with what has gone before. We, therefore, give a literal word for word translation of 1 John 2:1 from Bagster’s Interlinear: “Little children my, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin; and if any one should sin, a Paraclete we have with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous”. It will thus be seen that the apostle John is here writing to and about the saints of God. His immediate purpose was two-fold: first, to communicate a message that would keep God’s children from sinning; second, to supply comfort and assurance to those who might sin, and, in consequence, be cast down and fearful that the issue would prove fatal. He, therefore, makes known to them the provision which God has made for just such an emergency. This we find at the end of verse 1 and throughout verse 2. The ground of comfort is twofold: let the downcast and repentant believer (1 John 1:9) be assured that, first, he has an “Advocate with the Father”; second, that this Advocate is “the propitiation for our sins”. Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an “Advocate”, for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation (“and”) with “the Advocate”! Also the word “Comfort”, in such a case, belongs to none but believers; unto others in a state and condition of alienation, wrath is to be denounced, John 3:36. Thirdly, They are the "little children" to whom he writes, 1 John 2:1; whom he describes, verses 12, 13, to have "their sins forgiven them for his name's sake," and to "know the Father."

In the second place, if other passages in the New Testament which speak of “propitiation,” be compared with 1 John 2:2, it will be found that it is strictly limited in its scope. For example, in Romans 3:25 we read that God set forth Christ “a propitiation through faith in His blood”. If Christ is a propitiation “through faith”, then He is not a “propitiation” to those who have no faith! Again, in Hebrews 2:17 we read, “To make propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17, R. V.).

In the third place, who are meant when John says, “He is the propitiation for our sins”? We answer, Jewish believers. And a part of the proof on which we base this assertion we now submit to the careful attention of the reader. In Galatians 2:9 we are told that John, together with James and Cephas, were apostles “unto the circumcision” (i.e. Israel). In keeping with this, the Epistle of James is addressed to “the twelve tribes, which are scattered abroad” (1:1). So, the first Epistle of Peter is addressed to “the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion” (1 Peter 1:1, R. V.). And John also is writing to saved Israelites, but for saved Jews and saved Gentiles. Some of the evidences that John is writing to saved Jews are as follows.

In the opening verse he says of Christ, 1 John 1:1 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—“ How impossible it would have been for the Apostle Paul to have commenced any of his epistles to Gentile saints with such language!

1 John 2:7 “Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning”. The “beginning” here referred to is the beginning of the public manifestation of Christ— in proof compare 1 John 1:1; 1 John 2:13, etc. Now these believers the apostle tells us, had the “old commandment” from the beginning. This was true of Jewish believers, but it was not true of Gentile believers.

“I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning” (1 John 2:13). Here, again, it is evident that it is Jewish believers that are in view.

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:18-19). These brethren to whom John wrote had “heard” from Christ Himself that Antichrist should come (see Matthew 24). The “many antichrists” whom John declares “went out from us” were all Jews, for during the first century none but a Jew posed as the Messiah. Therefore, when John says “He is the propitiation for our sins” he can only mean for the sins of Jewish believers.

...and on it goes....
Pink has several errors and fallacies here, however, as I pointed out he equates propitiarion for sins with being saved. He does the very thing I spoke of. Rather than trying to reconcile what the Scriptures actually say, he jumps around trying to prove the Scriptures don't actually mean what they say.

He's got several errors here for instance he says John was speaking to Jews in 1 John 2. However, we know from history that John essentially took over Paul's ministry after Paul was killed. Paul's ministry was primarily to the Gentiles and John at that time was in Ephesus. I'm sure there were Jews there but I seriously doubt they were a majority.

He also mentions John's statement, 'they went out from us'. That's not a reference to the Jews. It's a reference to the Gnostics. That's why John told them to test the spirits. It was about Gnosticism. The funny thing is, some of the doctrines he adhered to were Gnostic.
 

wondering

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If you say that, but you also say this:

Then how can you say that Christ died for those to whom His death has no effect?

When you answer this, remember that the question I asked in the first place used the word "for" and that you have changed that word to "on" when you answered.
Use the word FOR or ON,,,makes no difference.

Christ died for the whole world.
Christ died to buy back humanity from the grips of satan.
(from the time of the fall).

The N.T. tells us He died for everyone:

John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:6
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all...


and also more verses...

HOWEVER, if a person does not take advantage of Christ's atonement, if a person does not accept the free gift of salvation...
then for that person Jesus' death is meaningless, for him individually.
 
Last edited:

Walpole

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Use the word FOR or ON,,,makes no difference.

Christ died for the whole world.
Christ died to buy back humanity from the grips of satan.
(from the time of the fall).

The N.T. tells us He died for everyone:

John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:6
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all...


and also more veres...

HOWEVER, if a person does not take advantage of Christ's atonement, if a person does not accept the free gift of salvation...
then for that person Jesus' death is meaningless, for him indivicually.

Good post.

Christ’s death is sufficient for all, but not efficacious for all.
 

wondering

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This is an abridged explanation of 1 John 2:2 from a reformed prospective
1 John 2:2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Pink, A.W. . The Sovereignty of God (Kindle Locations 4197-4203).

There is one passage more than any other which is appealed to by those who believe in universal redemption, and which at first sight appears to teach that Christ died for the whole human race. We have therefore decided to give it a detailed examination and exposition. “And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). This is the passage which, apparently, most favors the Arminian view of the Atonement, yet if it be considered attentively it will be seen that it does so only in appearance, and not in reality. Below we offer a number of conclusive proofs to show that this verse does not teach that Christ has propitiated God on behalf of all the sins of all men.

In the first place, the fact that this verse opens with “and” necessarily links it with what has gone before. We, therefore, give a literal word for word translation of 1 John 2:1 from Bagster’s Interlinear: “Little children my, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin; and if any one should sin, a Paraclete we have with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous”. It will thus be seen that the apostle John is here writing to and about the saints of God. His immediate purpose was two-fold: first, to communicate a message that would keep God’s children from sinning; second, to supply comfort and assurance to those who might sin, and, in consequence, be cast down and fearful that the issue would prove fatal. He, therefore, makes known to them the provision which God has made for just such an emergency. This we find at the end of verse 1 and throughout verse 2. The ground of comfort is twofold: let the downcast and repentant believer (1 John 1:9) be assured that, first, he has an “Advocate with the Father”; second, that this Advocate is “the propitiation for our sins”. Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an “Advocate”, for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation (“and”) with “the Advocate”! Also the word “Comfort”, in such a case, belongs to none but believers; unto others in a state and condition of alienation, wrath is to be denounced, John 3:36. Thirdly, They are the "little children" to whom he writes, 1 John 2:1; whom he describes, verses 12, 13, to have "their sins forgiven them for his name's sake," and to "know the Father."

In the second place, if other passages in the New Testament which speak of “propitiation,” be compared with 1 John 2:2, it will be found that it is strictly limited in its scope. For example, in Romans 3:25 we read that God set forth Christ “a propitiation through faith in His blood”. If Christ is a propitiation “through faith”, then He is not a “propitiation” to those who have no faith! Again, in Hebrews 2:17 we read, “To make propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17, R. V.).

In the third place, who are meant when John says, “He is the propitiation for our sins”? We answer, Jewish believers. And a part of the proof on which we base this assertion we now submit to the careful attention of the reader. In Galatians 2:9 we are told that John, together with James and Cephas, were apostles “unto the circumcision” (i.e. Israel). In keeping with this, the Epistle of James is addressed to “the twelve tribes, which are scattered abroad” (1:1). So, the first Epistle of Peter is addressed to “the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion” (1 Peter 1:1, R. V.). And John also is writing to saved Israelites, but for saved Jews and saved Gentiles. Some of the evidences that John is writing to saved Jews are as follows.

In the opening verse he says of Christ, 1 John 1:1 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—“ How impossible it would have been for the Apostle Paul to have commenced any of his epistles to Gentile saints with such language!

1 John 2:7 “Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning”. The “beginning” here referred to is the beginning of the public manifestation of Christ— in proof compare 1 John 1:1; 1 John 2:13, etc. Now these believers the apostle tells us, had the “old commandment” from the beginning. This was true of Jewish believers, but it was not true of Gentile believers.

“I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning” (1 John 2:13). Here, again, it is evident that it is Jewish believers that are in view.

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:18-19). These brethren to whom John wrote had “heard” from Christ Himself that Antichrist should come (see Matthew 24). The “many antichrists” whom John declares “went out from us” were all Jews, for during the first century none but a Jew posed as the Messiah. Therefore, when John says “He is the propitiation for our sins” he can only mean for the sins of Jewish believers.

...and on it goes....
I agree with Butch5
too many problems with the above to get into it.

1 John 2:2 is not the only verse that tells us The Christ died for everyone.

On another post I listed 8.

And, really, you should stick to the bible and see for yourself what it teaches us.
 

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Then how can you say that Jesus died for them? Jesus said "The son of man came to lay down His life as a ransom for many" and "no greater love has this: that a man should lay down his life for his friends". He never claimed to be laying down His life for those who wouldn't receive Him, but the writer of Hebrews 2:9 has developed a view that Jesus tasted of death for all, even if those whom He has tasted of death for have not received the gift of salvation. Have you considered whether there's possibly a negative rather than a positive effect for those ones at the end of the day in light of the fact that they would have been better off if a) they had received the gift, or b) Jesus had have not given up His life for them?
Analogy time...
If a guy jumped on a grenade in your "army" trench, and died, didn't he die for you and others present?
If you jumped up, afterwards, and were killed too, though he died for you, you wasted the gift.
Agreed?

Jesus died so we don't have to die the second death.
You can take the gift or you can refuse it.
But the gift, sacrifice, is there.
 

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Then how can you say that Jesus died for them? Jesus said "The son of man came to lay down His life as a ransom for many" and "no greater love has this: that a man should lay down his life for his friends". He never claimed to be laying down His life for those who wouldn't receive Him, but the writer of Hebrews 2:9 has developed a view that Jesus tasted of death for all, even if those whom He has tasted of death for have not received the gift of salvation. Have you considered whether there's possibly a negative rather than a positive effect for those ones at the end of the day in light of the fact that they would have been better off if a) they had received the gift, or b) Jesus had have not given up His life for them?
The "developed view" as you call it was not only by Paul but also by John the Apostle, and also by John the Baptist.

The N.T. also states that many are called but few are chosen.
Doesn't God call everyone?

I don't understand your last question very well...
but did you read the 8 verses I posted regarding Jesus dying for the whole world?
 

Hopeful

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I do believe it. But that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing a supposed payment for sins to God. A debt can't be both paid and forgiven. The two are mutually exclusive. It has to be one or the other. It can't be both.
Jesus paid so we could be forgiven.
We have a part to play in the exchange.
Believe, and obey.
"I" is the vessel that encapsulates you. God told Adam, 'you are dust'. He said through Moses that Man is flesh. That means the flesh is "you"
It is the package "I" am in.
It now carries the reborn heart and soul of a new creature, reborn of God's seed.
 

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I was a Calvinsit for a while. I wasn't well versed in the Scriptures at that time. It was listening to the New Testnant repeatedly that made me reconsider.
And there you have it....
listening to the N.T. REPEATEDLY made you reconsider.

NOT listening to calvinistic preacher/teachers or reading their material.
John Macarthur has his own bible out with his commentary in it.

It's so clear that God loves everyone and wishes that everyone be saved...
Where is the God of love in the reformed teachings?
 

Butch5

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Jesus paid so we could be forgiven.
We have a part to play in the exchange.
Believe, and obey.

It is the package "I" am in.
It now carries the reborn heart and soul of a new creature, reborn of God's seed.
It can't be paid and forgiven, they're mutually exclusive. It can only be one or the other.

No, a person is the body. God said man is flesh. Adam was flesh. He wasn't something in flesh, he was flesh
 

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In addition to this, Hopeful , I have noticed from JLB 's post in your other thread that 1John 2:2 says "He is the propitiation [...] for the whole world", specifically saying that Jesus is "not just the propitiation for us".

Doesn't it seem that these New Testament writers are both adamantly saying that Jesus provides propitiation for those who aren't Christian? How can that be?

brightfame52 I think you might like to say something about that too.
Only some would interpret it that way.
The free "ticket" is on the table. Bought and paid for by the Son of God.
Pick it up, so you can use it.
 

Hopeful

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It can't be paid and forgiven, they're mutually exclusive. It can only be one or the other.
He paid so we could be forgiven.
No, a person is the body. God said man is flesh. Adam was flesh. He wasn't something in flesh, he was flesh
That is one aspect of it.
Another may be that we are the mind.
Or what we do.
Or what we say.
But like the old saying..."don't judge a book by its cover".
 

Butch5

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He paid so we could be forgiven.

That is one aspect of it.
Another may be that we are the mind.
Or what we do.
Or what we say.
But like the old saying..."don't judge a book by its cover".
Hopeful, are you reading my replies. A debt can't be paid so it can be forgiven. That's like saying he went left to go right or he went up to go down. It's one or the other, not both. A debt is either paid or it is forgiven. It's not paid so it can be forgiven. That's a logical contradiction.

That's the whole aspect of it. God said "you are dust" to Adam. He didnt say you are in dust. Moses records God saying man is flesh.
 

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In addition to this, Hopeful , I have noticed from JLB 's post in your other thread that 1John 2:2 says "He is the propitiation [...] for the whole world", specifically saying that Jesus is "not just the propitiation for us".

Doesn't it seem that these New Testament writers are both adamantly saying that Jesus provides propitiation for those who aren't Christian? How can that be?

brightfame52 I think you might like to say something about that too.
What do you mean HOW CAN THAT BE??

If the N.T. states so,,,then we have to accept it.
We can't accept only what we do not understand...

However, if I can understand this simple idea, I really don't know what the problem is.

How do you think brightfame52 could be of any help when he believes God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost??
 

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A debt is either paid or it is forgiven.
There can be a broader meaning.

I break the neighbors window purposely. I get the window fixed. The debt is paid, but the neighbor does not forgive me.

I see your point from, say, an accounting point of view. From that point of view, the terms would contradict (unless I paid $5 of a $10 bill and $5 was forgiven ... then you have BOTH rather than EITHER)
 

Butch5

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There can be a broader meaning.

I break the neighbors window purposely. I get the window fixed. The debt is paid, but the neighbor does not forgive me.

I see your point from, say, an accounting point of view. From that point of view, the terms would contradict (unless I paid $5 of a $10 bill and $5 was forgiven ... then you have BOTH rather than EITHER)
Hi Fredy,

In your example the debt was the broken window. You paid that. That wasn't forgiven. Your actions, breaking the window on purpose may be forgiven

I guess technically if you paid half and the other half was forgiven you could have both. However, I don't see that option in Scripture
 

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Hopeful, are you reading my replies. A debt can't be paid so it can be forgiven. That's like saying he went left to go right or he went up to go down. It's one or the other, not both. A debt is either paid or it is forgiven. It's not paid so it can be forgiven. That's a logical contradiction.

That's the whole aspect of it. God said "you are dust" to Adam. He didnt say you are in dust. Moses records God saying man is flesh.
How's this?

Jesus died for the sins of the world...
every single one ....

But individually, He did say to confess our sins.
John 20:23

Just as individually, we have to accept His free gift.

Doesn't John the Apostle teach us that we are to ask?
He says in 1 John 1:5 that he is transmitting the message he heard from Jesus....

1 John 1:8-2
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



It does seem to me that it's necessary to confess our sins...
even if we don't understand why.
 

Butch5

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How's this:?

Jesus died for the sins of the world...
every single one ....

But individually, He did say to confess our sins.
John 20:23

Just as individually, we have to accept His free gift.

Doesn't John the Apostle teach us that we are to ask?
He says in 1 John 1:5 that he is transmitting the message he heard from Jesus....

1 John 1:8-2
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



It does seem to me that it's necessary to confess our sins...
even if we don't understand why.
Yeah, see, the Ransom Theory, the original theory, solves the problem. Jesus died as a ransom for all to redeem man from Satan. Adam disobeyed God and listened to Satan. As such Adam fell under his control. Jesus pays for Adam's sin of disobeying God and falling under Satan's power by dying on the cross. He gave His life for sin. He redeems mankind. Mankind has now been redeemed and is now under God's authority again. However, man still has his sin problem to deal with. God has offered to all, that anyone who will beleive and follow Christ can have those sins forgiven and can receive eternal life.

Jesus dies for all, but not all choose to follow and as such are lost. It fits perfectly with Scripture. All means all. There are no passages we have to dance around. It all fits together as it should.
 

Fastfredy0

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However, I don't see that option in Scripture
Hey Butch:
Trying to play devil's advocate here .... this is not life and death *giggle*

Hmmm .... I think both agree that Christians are forgiven
.... so can it be said that Christ paid a ransom/debt. Definitely had to die to satisfy God's holiness/justice.
Debt - something, typically money, that is owed or due.

Hmmm... there is the song ...
He paid the debt he did not own, I own the debt I could not pay
I needed someone to wash my sins away ... yahda, yahda

I don't think that qualifies as evidence ...cute aside though :biggrin2

There is the RANSOM TO SATAN THEORY ... I don't give that much credence

Hmmm, I can't come up with anything better... I guess I side with you. Fun mental exercise.
 

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Yeah, see, the Ransom Theory, the original theory, solves the problem. Jesus died as a ransom for all to redeem man from Satan. Adam disobeyed God and listened to Satan. As such Adam fell under his control. Jesus pays for Adam's sin of disobeying God and falling under Satan's power by dying on the cross. He gave His life for sin. He redeems mankind.

Agreed


Mankind has now been redeemed and is now under God's authority again. However, man still has his sin problem to deal with. God has offered to all, that anyone who will beleive and follow Christ can have those sins forgiven and can receive eternal life.

Agreed
Jesus dies for all, but not all choose to follow and as such are lost. It fits perfectly with Scripture. All means all. There are no passages we have to dance around. It all fits together as it should.
Agreed

I was addressing the need to ask for forgiveness for sins.
 

Fastfredy0

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All means all.
Probably best to let a dictionary define words.

  • used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
  • every member or individual component of
  • quantifier; used with either mass or count nouns to indicate the whole number or amount of or every one of a class
Thus, the use of ALL can be ambiguous and often construed by one's bias as the following example points out:
Jill says, "All motorcycles have two wheels. " Greg responds, "That's ridiculous. A single motorcycle has two wheels. And there are of 200,000,000 motorcycles in the world. Therefore, all motorcycles would have over 400,000,000 wheels.
 
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