Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Tasted Death for every Man !

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,327
Joined
May 4, 2020
I think that's the whole point of forgiveness. We don't get what we deserve.
I agree,
Premise 1: we don't get what we deserve.
Premise 2: The definition of justice is to get what we deserve
Premise 3: God is just/righteous to a fault (no exceptions, perfect, infinite)
Conclusion: Forgiveness alone does not satisfy God's righteousness/justice and therefore the Atonement cannot be satisfied by 'forgiveness' alone.

I don't think propitiation is a good translation of the Greek hilasterion. Hilasterion is translated "mercy seat" all through the Bible with the exception of three passages.
Well, I went to 1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. (Aside: Hey, 1 John 2:2 is probably one of your favorite GO TO verses)
Morphology: N-NM-S Strong's: 2434 Transliterated: hilasmos Root: ἱλασμός
1) an appeasing, propitiating 2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Says in the first source I went to that PROPITIATE fits. No mention of MERCY SEAT.

Same result (propitiate) for 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Are you saying God has not been PROPITIATED or are you saying that God can be PROPITIATED by something else and if so what? Can God be PROPITIATED by just sweeping sin under the carpet and saying I forgive? If so, why not forgive everyone, man and angels, for everything (ALL without exception)?

Again, not that this topic is of extreme importance ... an interested thing to contemplate. Aside: You sure you don't want to come pur side, we would love to have you back. :yes
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,526
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
There can be a broader meaning.

I break the neighbors window purposely. I get the window fixed. The debt is paid, but the neighbor does not forgive me.

I see your point from, say, an accounting point of view. From that point of view, the terms would contradict (unless I paid $5 of a $10 bill and $5 was forgiven ... then you have BOTH rather than EITHER)
Yep, semantics.
 

Edward

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
13,324
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
It means the breath of man which is in him. That's the breath of life.

So are you saying our breath is conscious?

1 Thessalonians 2:11
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.../

So... For what man knows the things of a man except his breath of the man which is in him?
That is not making much sense to me Brother. You're saying my breath is conscious.
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
So are you saying our breath is conscious?

1 Thessalonians 2:11
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.../

So... For what man knows the things of a man except his breath of the man which is in him?
That is not making much sense to me Brother. You're saying my breath is conscious.
The breath isn't the act of breathing. The breath of life is something of God Himself that He has put into all flesh. It's that which gives us life and all of our abilities. We can think because God has given us His breath which makes our brains function. Everything we do, we do because God's breath has enabled us.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

Both of the bolded words mean wind or breath. There is a breath in man. That is the breath of life from God. The breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. The breath of the Almighty that gives him understanding is the breath of life from God

Notice what Job says, "there is a breath". He didn't say there were breaths, plural. He said there is a breath, one.
When we look at the creation of man we see that God put one breath into the man, the breath of life. It came out of God. The picture we're given is that it was breathed into the man. That indicates that it came out of God. It is this breath that man Adam alive. If we look at Ezekiel 37 we find a picture of the resurrection of Israel. It's very similar to what we see in the creation of Adam. However, after the bones come together and the flesh comes on them they are not alive. Just like Adam. Then God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the breath.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

All of the bolded words are the same Hebrew word, ruach. The translators have used three different words to translate it. In doing so many don't see what ruach actually is.

According to this passage, the bones and flesh come together but are not alive. The breath comes into them and they live. But notice the key statement when God is explaining this to Ezekiel. He said He would put His breath into them and they would live. It's God's breath that gives us life and the ability to do the things we do.
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
I agree,
Premise 1: we don't get what we deserve.
Premise 2: The definition of justice is to get what we deserve
Premise 3: God is just/righteous to a fault (no exceptions, perfect, infinite)
Conclusion: Forgiveness alone does not satisfy God's righteousness/justice and therefore the Atonement cannot be satisfied by 'forgiveness' alone.
Man was alienated from God through sin. He was under the Satan's puview. Christ's death redeemed mankind. Now that man is redeemed his sins can be forgiven. Redemption and forgiveness are both part of the Atonement.
Well, I went to 1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. (Aside: Hey, 1 John 2:2 is probably one of your favorite GO TO verses)
Morphology: N-NM-S Strong's: 2434 Transliterated: hilasmos Root: ἱλασμός
1) an appeasing, propitiating 2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Says in the first source I went to that PROPITIATE fits. No mention of MERCY SEAT.
We can easily replace the words and see if it makes sense. He is the mercy seat for our sins, is Christ our mercy seat? He is the means through which we approach God.

And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. (Exod. 25:21-22 KJV)

11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.(Lev. 16:11-17 KJV)


On Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement, Arron was to sprinkle blood on the Mercy seat to atone for the sins of the people. We have Christ who is our mercy seat through whom we received the atonement, through His blood. We meet God at Christ. Moses met Him at the mercy seat. Christ is our mercy seat. So, if we look at the three passages in the New Testament that use the word propitiation and read it as mercy seat, it makes perfect sense.

By using the word propitiation instead of mercy seat the Old Testament imagery is lost.
.
Same result (propitiate) for 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Are you saying God has not been PROPITIATED or are you saying that God can be PROPITIATED by something else and if so what? Can God be PROPITIATED by just sweeping sin under the carpet and saying I forgive? If so, why not forgive everyone, man and angels, for everything (ALL without exception)?
I'm saying that mercy seat is the better translation. If we use the word propitiation, it implies that God is angry with people by default and that this anger needs to be appeased.
Again, not that this topic is of extreme importance ... an interested thing to contemplate. Aside: You sure you don't want to come pur side, we would love to have you back. :yes
LOL. I'll pass. I like the way things are now.
 

Walpole

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
960
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Man was alienated from God through sin. He was under the Satan's puview. Christ's death redeemed mankind. Now that man is redeemed his sins can be forgiven. Redemption and forgiveness are both part of the Atonement.

We can easily replace the words and see if it makes sense. He is the mercy seat for our sins, is Christ our mercy seat? He is the means through which we approach God.

And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. (Exod. 25:21-22 KJV)

11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.(Lev. 16:11-17 KJV)

On Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement, Arron was to sprinkle blood on the Mercy seat to atone for the sins of the people. We have Christ who is our mercy seat through whom we received the atonement, through His blood. We meet God at Christ. Moses met Him at the mercy seat. Christ is our mercy seat. So, if we look at the three passages in the New Testament that use the word propitiation and read it as mercy seat, it makes perfect sense.

By using the word propitiation instead of mercy seat the Old Testament imagery is lost.
.

I'm saying that mercy seat is the better translation. If we use the word propitiation, it implies that God is angry with people by default and that this anger needs to be appeased.

LOL. I'll pass. I like the way things are now.
Another great post.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Interesting ...
This study, what is a man, is probably the most profound study I've done in Scripture. After doing this study and rethinking what a man is, so much of Scripture that I didn't understand or couldn't reconcile fell right into place. Many things became so clear. It changed the way I view Scripture.
 

Walpole

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
960
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Inappropriate Language
Non-Calvinism is simply a new spin on the old primitive and pagan concept of throwing virgins into the volcano to appease the gods.

You really need to establish your arguments ... at least try.
Here you go...

Aside from the fact this Calvinist concept destroys the Trinity (God actually becomes dividend against Himself / God acts contra Logos with penal substitution), this is in stark contrast to the Christian understanding of the act of Christ's offering of Himself to the Father out of love...

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:18)

"...and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

"...how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God." (Heb 9:14)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Another great post.

Calvinism is simply a new spin on the old primitive and pagan concept of throwing virgins into the volcano to appease the gods.
It does come from pagan roots. Luther was an Augustinian monk and Calvin also studied Augustine. Augustine was actually a Manichean before converting so he interpreted Scripture from that point of view. Calvin had been a stoic and held to Fatalism, all things are fated. He essentially just changed fate to God and said that God controlled everything instead of fate. Both Calvin and Augustine had similar beliefs, and then Luther had studied Augustine so it's not hard to see how Reformed theology came about. They were arguing against abuses in the Catholic church and as is usually the case with people, they went to the opposite extreme. The truth was in the middle
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,327
Joined
May 4, 2020
Atonement in Calvinism (penal substitution) is an absurdity.
Lacks foundation. Maybe if you stuck to the facts instead of pejoratives your opinion might be worth considering in a non comedic way.

It also makes God out to be nothing more than a pagan volcano god, raging with pent up anger, hatred and rage, who is only appeased by throwing the virgin damsel in distress into the volcano.
Another empty pejorative. The fact that the statement uses "pent up anger, hatred and rage" is contrary to the impassibility of God that is reformed doctrine. Therefore, that statement is false.
"Virgin damsel in distress into the volcano" ... colorful prose, I grant you that. Do you get your reformed theology from a comic book or make it up on the go? Ridiculous!
1623265516127.png

This stands in stark contrast to the Christian understanding of the act of Christ's offering of Himself to the Father out of love...
Of course your initial false assertions stand in stark contrast to ANYTHING. Set up a false straw man and shot him down. :clap :lol
 

Walpole

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
960
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
The breath isn't the act of breathing. The breath of life is something of God Himself that He has put into all flesh. It's that which gives us life and all of our abilities. We can think because God has given us His breath which makes our brains function. Everything we do, we do because God's breath has enabled us.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

Both of the bolded words mean wind or breath. There is a breath in man. That is the breath of life from God. The breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. The breath of the Almighty that gives him understanding is the breath of life from God

Notice what Job says, "there is a breath". He didn't say there were breaths, plural. He said there is a breath, one.
When we look at the creation of man we see that God put one breath into the man, the breath of life. It came out of God. The picture we're given is that it was breathed into the man. That indicates that it came out of God. It is this breath that man Adam alive. If we look at Ezekiel 37 we find a picture of the resurrection of Israel. It's very similar to what we see in the creation of Adam. However, after the bones come together and the flesh comes on them they are not alive. Just like Adam. Then God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the breath.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

All of the bolded words are the same Hebrew word, ruach. The translators have used three different words to translate it. In doing so many don't see what ruach actually is.

According to this passage, the bones and flesh come together but are not alive. The breath comes into them and they live. But notice the key statement when God is explaining this to Ezekiel. He said He would put His breath into them and they would live. It's God's breath that gives us life and the ability to do the things we do.

Another great post.

Something I'll mention is there are two places in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man. The first is when God breathes life into Adam. The second is on Easter evening in the Upper Room when Christ breathes on the Apostles, imparting on them the Holy Spirit and authorizing them to forgive sins.

Genesis 2:7

John 20:22-23
 

Walpole

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
960
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Lacks foundation. Maybe if you stuck to the facts instead of pejoratives your opinion might be worth considering in a non comedic way.


Another empty pejorative. The fact that the statement uses "pent up anger, hatred and rage" is contrary to the impassibility of God that is reformed doctrine. Therefore, that statement is false.
"Virgin damsel in distress into the volcano" ... colorful prose, I grant you that. Do you get your reformed theology from a comic book or make it up on the go? Ridiculous!
View attachment 11903


Of course your initial false assertions stand in stark contrast to ANYTHING. Set up a false straw man and shot him down. :clap :lol

“…excuse my language but I can be no more accurate than to say it was as if Jesus heard the words, ‘Because that’s what it meant to be cursed: to be damned, to be under the anathema of a father. As I said, I don’t understand that, but I know that it’s true.” - R.C. Sproul

56 min mark


God does not overcome evil by evil. Only in Calvinism does God do that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Hey Butch:
Seems like a bit of a stretch. Granted, I do use the anthropomorphic explanation for verses saying "God changed his mind" but then I have verses saying God never changes His mind to support my contention. I suppose the following are hyperbole too:

Matthew 3:5 At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; all the babies, cripples, blind, old ... hard to believe
I believe this is probably just a general statement. It could be hyperbole. We us language this way today. Suppose someone said to me, do you like hiking? My answer, Yes, I go hiking all the time. Would the questioner understand that I hike non stop? Surely they would understand that I do sleep at night. I don't think they would understand my answer as I hike 24/7/365. It's hyperbole. It's just a way of saying I hike a lot. It's just a way for Matthew to say there were a lot people from the surrounding area.

One thing I think, as Christians, we seem to want to read every word in the Scriptures literally. But they're not always literal. There are figures of speech, metaphors, parables, allegories, hyperbole. There are parallelisms. There is poetic language, etc. in the Bible. Death and Hades are said to be riding a horse. Death isn't even a physical thing, it's a abstract. It's the absence of life. How could it ride a horse? Or Hades, the grave, how could it ride a horse? We have trees rejoicing and rocks speaking. There are all kinds of non literal language in the Scriptures. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for understanding the Bible literally. However, when the text clearly is not literal we should look to see what kind of figurative language we're dealing with.
John 1:7 He [John the Baptist] came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all [some versions use “everyone” instead of “all”] might believe through him. (100% success rate as you say ALL means is incredible ... much better ratio than Christ achieved)
This passage I believe is literal and means every person. Notice it says, "might believe" so there isn't a 100% success rate needed. Also, John qualifies this all by saying every person in verse 9.
give vvvvvvv
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. “All” without exception would validate universalism.
It only validates Universalism if we equate justification of life coming to all men with salvation. If justification of life can come to a man and that man reject it, there is no validation of Universalism. In Reformed theology where man can't reject 'justification of life' it would validate Universalism. But this would be letting our theology define the terms
“And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them” (John 8:2); are we to understand this expression absolutely or relatively? Does “all the people” mean all without exception or all without distinction, that is, all classes and conditions of people? Surely the latter; for the Temple was not able to accommodate everybody that was in Jerusalem at this time.
Here it says He came into the Temple. It would seem then that the all, here, is the those in the Temple. Does John mean every single person? He could. Does he mean, as you suggest, all classes and conditions of people? He could. Honestly, I think John just meant all those people who were there around Jesus.

Something I'd like to point out though is, in your example you give all people without exception and all classes and conditions of people. If we look at all people without exception, how many are excluded? None. If we look at all classes and conditions of people, how many were excluded? None. In both instances all means the totality of.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,327
Joined
May 4, 2020
Something I'd like to point out though is, in your example you give all people without exception and all classes and conditions of people. If we look at all people without exception, how many are excluded? None. If we look at all classes and conditions of people, how many were excluded? None. In both instances all means the totality of.
Hey Butch:
I don't agree with all your statements (I didn't copy all of them from the post), but I compliment you on your ability to state your case well with plausible explanations.

I.E. You don't use "Virgin damsel in distress into the volcano" dramatizations to validate your ideas. *giggle*
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Another great post.

Something I'll mention is there are two places in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man. The first is when God breathes life into Adam. The second is on Easter evening in the Upper Room when Christ breathes on the Apostles, imparting on them the Holy Spirit and authorizing them to forgive sins.

Genesis 2:7

John 20:22-23
Yeah, many think the apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They actually received it before that. They received the power at Pentecost
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Hey Butch:
I don't agree with all your statements (I didn't copy all of them from the post), but I compliment you on your ability to state your case well with plausible explanations.

I.E. You don't use "Virgin damsel in distress into the volcano" dramatizations to validate your ideas. *giggle*
Thanks! It's all got to make sense to me. If it doesn't I have something wrong.
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
You are caught in some semantics puzzle.
Someone else paid my debt, causing the forgiveness of my debt.

Again, semantics.
It's not semantics. It's logic. The Law of Noncontradiction states that two opposing things cannot both be true at the same time. There are two ways to reconcile a debt. Payment and forgiveness. It's one or the other.

Again, it's not semantics. You're telling me that the body is just temporary and not you. I'm saying that the body is you.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,327
Joined
May 4, 2020
Thanks! It's all got to make sense to me.
True.
I only wish I knew those things that makes sense to me that are nonsense.
So many people making an honest attempt to find truth, yet never do.
At least we have the Bible so we come closer than most.

Changing the topic ... what in your opinion on the often abused meaning of "We are made in God's Image". I know there is not general agreement ... but what is YOUR STAB IN THE DARK?
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,764
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
True.
I only wish I knew those things that makes sense to me that are nonsense.
So many people making an honest attempt to find truth, yet never do.
At least we have the Bible so we come closer than most.

Changing the topic ... what in your opinion on the often abused meaning of "We are made in God's Image". I know there is not general agreement ... but what is YOUR STAB IN THE DARK?
Hi Fredy,

For me it was when I was taught opposing doctrines. I decided to put all of my beliefs on the table. Nothing was sacred. Everything was tested against Scripture. I'd been praying that God would help me understand the Bible. Being taught opposing doctrines lead me to start a search for what the Bible really taught. I was tired of this verse fits but that one doesn't. That's when I put it all on the table. That search lead me to the early Christian writings. That and finding a group of well grounded deep studying Christians has gone a long way in helping me to find what the Bible really teaches. What really surprised me was how far off modern Christianity is from what was originally taught.

On being made in the image of God, we're not really told much. In my opinion it has to do with our being able to reason and basically a higher functioning level of intelligence than the animal kingdom.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB
Top