Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

"Teachings that are but rules taught by men"

StoveBolts said:
Excuse the mess here as Blackberries don't do php very well. :)

Hate mine.....

George,
I think you took your last post just a bit too far... First, look at what paul had to say in Romans, chapter 1 and 2 and also 8 and 9, or maybee it's 9 and 10.. Can't remember exactly so just go ahead and read the whole letter ok?

I usually do go too far.... :lol: however, I stand by what I had written. Which part did I go to far in....the whole thing? Please use the quote option so I know the part you are contending...thanks. I have read Romans several times and know it pretty well, however, you have to be careful with Paul...after all can he really trusted?...As Paul himself said he was all things to all men, to convert men to his belief, that is Pauline Christianity and not the Christianity of the Church at Jerusalem.

Anyway, I get the sence that Paul was repremending the gentiles for dis respecting the Jews along with judeism... But then he goes to say something to the effect that we are not to cause somebody to stumble if they hold to a disputable belief... Such as holding one day more special than another day (perhaps the sabath??) Or what somebody eats.

The quote you are referring to I believe is in regard to fasting....a practice Jewish Christians used as a special day of fasting during the week. Not sure what you are getting at in that paragraph.

I do not believe Paul was trying to convert the gentiles to judeism, but rather strike a balance between the two beliefs.

I agree, he was not. He was trying to convert them to his concept of Christianity known as Pauline Christianity. He used Judaism as a bonafides for the promotion of his teachings.

God bless
 
Heidi said:
Georges said:
Heidi said:
Does anyone here think the hearts of the Pharisees were close to God? :o Jesus sure didn't even though they followed the letter of the law exactly! So do you know what he was saying to them? :o


Heidi.....Jeus was/is a Pharisee....read any of Hyam Maccoby's (a renowned scholar in the field of ancient middle eastern religion, specializing in Judeo-Christian studies) books...he breaks it down in very minute detail the dealings between Jesus and the Pharisee's. He shows in detail the pharisaic argument between the two. Jesus' discussions with the Pharisee's are shown to be very similar to the discussions the Pharisee's had between themselves (that is the Hillel party and the Shammai party). Another item Heidi, where ever you see "priest" in the Gospels, it refers to the Sadducean party who were at odds with the Pharisee's. The Pharisee's liked Jesus, or at least respected him, the Sadducee's (the priestly body) did not.

Heidi, I've noticed a trend in your (and others of like mind) posts.....You have a little trouble distinguishing what is Law (Torah) and what is Custom (Man made Law surrounding the Torah). It is very important that you understand the difference between the two because this is the crux of the argument Jesus had in contention with the hard line Pharisees, but mainly Saduccees. Also, you gloss over and buy the Christian lie that the Law is a burden and weight upon the necks of the people. As proven in the Psalms and in other places, the Jews regarded the Law with Joy.


For the rest in Posterland, type a search on the book "Paul: the Mythmaker", it is very interesting to see how the gospels have been doctored to make all Jews (mainly the Pharisees) look like antagonists to Jesus, when in reality they espoused the same opinion.

Caveat!!!!....... it is an ey opening book that really dissects Paul and the development of his theology....makes you wonder about Paul.....it takes a look at all of the inconsistencies experienced in the Gospels and Letters.....and why they are there.

Sorry, Georges, but you have shown a complete lack of understanding of not only who Jesus was, but what the difference between true believers and the Pharisees is.

Heidi, You don't have to be sorry....You are right....I don't have "your" understanding of what ever your concept is.....gotta tell you, I'm not real disappointed in my stupidity. :P

Jesus is not only the Son of God, but he is the Word which you can find in John 1:1-3.

Didn't you and I have a discussion on this verse before?....Why did you quote this? Doesn't germane to the topic.

Also, by claiming that Jesus was a pharisee, then Jesus is casting out himself when he puts down the pharisees, which Jesus says is impossible.

You may be the only one in Christiandom who doesn't accept that He was a Pharisee. Do you know who the Pharisees were, and what they believed? When did Jesus cast out the Pharisees? Am I to understand that Jesus cast out James and Peter the Pharisaic Christians who were the principle leaders of the early Christian Church? Oops! my lack of understanding is getting in the way again.

So before you make any more ludicrous claims like saying that Jesus was a pharisee, you need to first develop a personal relationship with your Lord so you know who he is.

Oh...the temptation..... :roll: Be still my itching fingers.....type nicely to her....don't make any rude comments as she is doing to you.....Oh! did I type that out loud...... :oops:

Then you need to scrutinize the gospel to see exactly what Jesus said to the pharisees. Then you need to believe every single word he said because he himself tells us the difference between true believers and the pharisees. Until you do all 3 things, you have nothing further to say about this subject that could possibly interest me.

I guess you told me......Heidi....you crack me up...... :-D
 
Let the Word tell you who these Pharisees are.

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

A hypocrite is a religious leader who claims to be, a minister or prophet or teacher of God but who does not do the works of God ccording to the WILL of God.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
A true servant of God whould espouse the widows of the house (of Israel) who have no husband to Jesus Christ (2 Cor 11:2), the true Bridegroom, and He would guide them and protect them from these wolves in sheep's clothing who enter in and devour their houses.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
They have membership drives and recruit converts and bring them into their dens of iniquity where they are indoctrinated into following the path of their traditions that will lead them both straight to hell, to gehenna, which is symbolic of the real lake of fire where the tares arnd all that is wicked prerish.

Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Anyone who claim to be a servant of God and focuses more on your laying up treasue in their temple rather than laying up treasue in heaven by serving the true temple, the body of Christ, is a false prophet indeed. They use Malachi 3:8-9 even the lay guilt trips on people by telling them that they are robbing God if they don't pay their tithes to them.

Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

religious morons(fools) WHICH is greater, the true temple, Jesus Christ, which sanctifies and purifies the real gold, or the gold carried in people's wallets?

Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
God isn't interested in your gifts and your sacrifices, He wants your love and for you to get to know Him throuh His Word. Hosea 6:6

Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Matt 5:23-24

Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Love God and Keep His commandments Matt 22:38

Mat 23:21 And who so shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Matt 22:39

Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Pray for those spiritual gifts which are from His throne that allow you to bring forth fruit for the kingdom of heaven. John 14:13

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Judgment is coming to those who play church, hypocrites! They are so busy concentrating on tithing and raising funds, that they forget concerning their obligation to God, to teach from His Word the things that are most important.

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
They in minor things being careful not to transgress the least of their silly traditions, while they swallow the most abominable and unclean things of doctrines of men.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. They appear so clean and holy to disguise their works. It may well look like a Beth-el, a house of God, but if His Word is not what is rightly taught there then in is a Beth-aven. House of nothing! Be a fruit tester Matt 7:17-19

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Clean up your acts and start teaching your Father's Words.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto white sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

What's the great famine of the end times? It is for hearing the Word of God Amos 8:11-13 This famine and dearth has produced the valley of dry dead bones that Ezekiel saw in Ezk 37, which are men and women in this final generation who are physically alive but are spiritually dead. They have followed the traditions of men.

Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The traditions of men, those who claim to be God's servants but who work iniquity instead of dong the will of God. Matt 7:21-23.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

They pay homage to the prohets and bemoan the martyrdom of the righeous men and women of God ,but the pervert the truth and deny any relationship to thse murderers of the prophets, this brood of vipers are themselves the venomous spittin image of their forefathers who murdered the prophets in the first place.

Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Christians must be able to identify who these are for they claim to be children of Abraham(by race) and descendants of Judah calling themselves "God chosen people." They are NOT descendants of Abraham which proves them to be the liars they are. Rev 2:9 I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. The children of true Judan did not bring about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The sons of Cain claiming to be sons of Judah did. Today, only two Christian churches teach concerning these murderous kenites. They are the church of Smyrna and the church of Phildelphia Rev 2:9 and 3:9.

Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Like father like son!

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
generation used here is gennema and means offspring.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

This even refers back to the parable of the laborers in the vineyard in Matt 21 who beat and stoned and killed the servants that the householder sent to them and then murdered the very Son of the householder.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
What things shall come upon this brood of the vipers, the kenites(sons of cain) the tares? Judgment from all the religious hypocrisy and blood shed upon the earth. Woe, They reject Jesus Christ and have caused many to stumble at the cornerstone.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

To call Jesus a Pharisees is Blasphemy!
 
Thanks Irishrain for quoting so much of Matthew to explain who the Pharisees are, which I really didn't want to do because each person needs to get into the bible himself. But it seems it was necessary to quote it on this thread.

The Pharisees honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from them. Their teachings are but rules taught by men. They clean their cups from the outside instead of having them cleaned from the inside so that the outside will become clean as well. They obey the letter of the law but not the heart of the law.

Therefore, anyone whose cup is not cleansed on the inside by the Holy Spirit, but instead tries to clean it from the outside by obeying the letter of the law is a pharisee. Again, "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." The pharisees obey the letter of the law but put to death those who disobey it so their hearts are full of murder, which Jesus also says when he calls their father the father the devil who was a murderer from the beginning.

When the law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, we no longer follow the law but Jesus Christ who fulfilled the law for us. Whenever we sin, we ask for and receive forgiveness which replaces our sins so that our hearts are full of love and forgiveness instead of sin and that is how Jesus brings us into obedience of the law. Not simply following "teachings that are but rules taught by men."
 
I don't think you guys got Georges' point. And yes, we can't deny those words of scripture about that particular generation of Pharisees.

It's not the "Pharisee" part that's the problem. It was the men. They just happened to be Pharisees (and not all of them were corrupt). Consider Nicodemus and the man Yahshua went to sit down to eat with in Luke 7:36.

Consider also Gamaliel (Paul was taught under him - Acts 22:3) from Acts 5:34, who stood up for the apostles. People's beloved, supposed, antominian Paul said himself that he was a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Philippians 3:5).

So just because he addressed some Pharisees on many occassions does not mean being a Pharisee makes you evil. There was even a sect of Pharisees who were believers (Acts 15:5, though they had made a mistake in this chapter).

Heidi said:
When the law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, we no longer follow the law but Jesus Christ who fulfilled the law for us.

This doesn't make sense. Why are you not following something written on your heart? You're going to have to have surgery done to get that cancerous bondage out of there...

And what did the Messiah do, btw? Obeyed the Torah. To follow him does not mean think about him. It means to do and act and even think as he did, not think of how he did what he did so we don't have to. That's fruitless.

We are also to fulfill the Torah (Romans 2:27; Romans 8:4; Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14; Galatians 6:2; James 2:8) as well as to to fulfill all righteousness by baptism (Matthew 3:15).

So, please point out to me in scripture where it says he fulfilled the Torah "for us", because I have failed to come across that scripture.

Instead, as 1 John 2:6 says, we are to walk as he walked, fulfilling the Torah.

Also, you didn't answer my question (or response rather) above. You accused others of not answering yours. Please answer.

And once again, direct me to that scripture where it says "Christ fulfilled the law for us". That must be in the book of Heidi 4:99bezerklololololololololalaladee somewhere, I don't know. :)
 
And man, I hadn't even noticed. Thessalonian and Georges owned all who are anti-torah on the first page with those Psalm quotes!
 
wavy said:
I don't think you guys got Georges' point. And yes, we can't deny those words of scripture about that particular generation of Pharisees.

It's not the "Pharisee" part that's the problem. It was the men. They just happened to be Pharisees (and not all of them were corrupt). Consider Nicodemus and the man Yahshua went to sit down to eat with in Luke 7:36.

Consider also Gamaliel (Paul was taught under him - Acts 22:3) from Acts 5:34, who stood up for the apostles. People's beloved, supposed, antominian Paul said himself that he was a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Philippians 3:5).

So just because he addressed some Pharisees on many occassions does not mean being a Pharisee makes you evil. There was even a sect of Pharisees who were believers (Acts 15:5, though they had made a mistake in this chapter).

Heidi said:
When the law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, we no longer follow the law but Jesus Christ who fulfilled the law for us.

This doesn't make sense. Why are you not following something written on your heart? You're going to have to have surgery done to get that cancerous bondage out of there...

And what did the Messiah do, btw? Obeyed the Torah. To follow him does not mean think about him. It means to do and act and even think as he did, not think of how he did what he did so we don't have to. That's fruitless.

We are also to fulfill the Torah (Romans 2:27; Romans 8:4; Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14; Galatians 6:2; James 2:8) as well as to to fulfill all righteousness by baptism (Matthew 3:15).

So, please point out to me in scripture where it says he fulfilled the Torah "for us", because I have failed to come across that scripture.

Instead, as 1 John 2:6 says, we are to walk as he walked, fulfilling the Torah.

Also, you didn't answer my question (or response rather) above. You accused others of not answering yours. Please answer.

And once again, direct me to that scripture where it says "Christ fulfilled the law for us". That must be in the book of Heidi 4:99bezerklololololololololalaladee somewhere, I don't know. :)

Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." He is not lying here, wavy. The only thing that makes any of us good is the Holy Spirit inside of us which convicts of us sin and leads us to repentance. "Flesh and blood cannot enetr heaven" because flesh and blood are not good, as Jesus tells us. Only God is good which is why His spirit inside of us is the only thing that makes us good, period. And since the pharisees did not have the Holy Spirit inside them, nor did they want it, they are not good even though they thought they were. But as Jesus says, "He who exalts himself will be humbled." :)
 
Heidi said:
Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone."

Heidi...question here....Is Jesus including himself in this proclamation? If so.....why does he give the impression in the answer that he isn't God by not saying he is?

He is not lying here, wavy. The only thing that makes any of us good is the Holy Spirit inside of us which convicts of us sin and leads us to repentance. "Flesh and blood cannot enetr heaven" because flesh and blood are not good, as Jesus tells us. Only God is good which is why His spirit inside of us is the only thing that makes us good, period. And since the pharisees did not have the Holy Spirit inside them, nor did they want it, they are not good even though they thought they were. But as Jesus says, "He who exalts himself will be humbled." :)
 
If we are still bound by 'law', then I submit that ALL ARE LOST. There is NOT ONE PERFECT, no not one. If you commit the least offense of the law, then you are guilty of them all.

Salvation fulfilled the law. We are NO LONGER bound to death through written law. Accept and rejoice over the freedom that Christ came and died to offer.

Ignore the law? Absolutely NOT. Learn from the law, and love God through the freedom to do so brought about by the Blood of Christ. Accept Christ into your heart and there will be absolutely NO NEED for a written law. Once one begins to understand the love that God has for us, we WILL obey the laws offered through this understanding.
 
Imagican said:
If we are still bound by 'law', then I submit that ALL ARE LOST. There is NOT ONE PERFECT, no not one. If you commit the least offense of the law, then you are guilty of them all.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua Messiah the righteous:

And while the above quote you are referring to from James is talking about a lifestyle, even if it was meant to mean what you are presenting it to, the scripture I just quoted is still true, therefore none are "lost".

Salvation fulfilled the law.

Not in scripture.

We are NO LONGER bound to death through written law.

True.

Accept and rejoice over the freedom that Christ came and died to offer.

The freedom is not freedom from the Torah. :)

Accept Christ into your heart and there will be absolutely NO NEED for a written law.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture (that is, what is "written") is given by inspiration of YHWH, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of YHWH may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
And I offer again, if you believe that you "MUST" follow the written law instead of that which is written upon the hearts of those that love the Lord, you are bound to find guilt instead of love. And without the love, there is little room for a personal relationship with the Father through His Son.

There were 'few' commands offered by our Savior. When asked about that which was MOST important, there was actually NO law offered. Only that we are to love God above all else. And second, love our neighbor as ourselves. And to take this a step further, He explains that EVERY LAW WRITTEN, and ALL THE PROPHETS SENT, were for this ONE PURPOSE. To teach us LOVE.

I still maintain that once one develops a relationship with God, there is no longer any need for written law. For once this relationship begins to bloom, love becomes a central understanding. Once one begins to understand this love, those things that were written in the law become a part of our nature. Not through our feeble attempts at following a 'law' designed to teach us love, but through the actual love itself.

Every single person that has posted their beliefs in 'law' is bound to answer the same question with the same answer. The question: Can you live by the law? The answer: NO. If this is true, then obviously anyone that believes this is making a false assumption somewhere in their understanding.

I believe that all it takes to see this error in understanding is to read what Paul wrote concerning 'law', and make a small effort to understand it. To simply refuse to accept what Paul wrote means that one must NOT believe that Christ died for our sin. That He allowed Himself to be the ULTIMATE, LAST, ONLY Sacrifice for our Salvation. And through this sacrifice, the law was fulfilled.

Previous to Christ's sacrifice the law demanded individual and group sacrifices for individual and group sin. After the LAST sacrifice was offered, the law that required the sacrifices of the past became simply that, laws of the past. They were designed as a guide to a selfish people, even then offering that it would NOT ALWAYS BE SO.

And I will also offer this, the law was a simple thing to follow in comparison to that which we are bound to now. Those that followed after Moses knew very little of God Himself. They were simply bound by 'law' and as long as this was followed, they were pretty much on their own in life.

Now we have the ability to once again develope a personal relationship with the Father through His Son. We are NO LONGER able to simply try and follow 'laws', but are now COMMANDED that we learn to love one another, REGARDLESS of the 'law'. Not only our friends, but our enemies. This was NOT taught by Mosaic 'law'. Our burden now is much greater than that suffered by the Hebrews. Moses taught an eye for an eye, Jesus taught us that we are to love our enemies to the point that we are to, 'turn the other cheek'. Boy, it's much easier for fleshly men to fight than it is to swallow ones personal pride and love their enemies.
 
There is so much vagueness in the term 'teachings that are rules taught by man'. I wonder if you could be more specific, Heidi. What ARE the rules as taught by man? Or ...is it merely the Sabbath issue again that is the problem? Is that the main 'rule taught by man' or are there others as well as that one. I just ask that you be more specific. I just can't see not murdering, not stealing, not lying, not coveting, not dishonoring being an issue to you. So, what IS the issue here ...specifically?

Also, why is it that you always see obedience as legalism? How do you personally determine who is being obedient through love and who is being obedient because of legalism? I haven't been able to figure this out.
 
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I offer again, if you believe that you "MUST" follow the written law instead of that which is written upon the hearts of those that love the Lord, you are bound to find guilt instead of love.

I find this rather interesting. A false dichotomy. If your understanding and interpretation of scripture is correct then they had better not be in conflict. Thus you should follow what is written and that is following what is in your heart and vice versa. But tell me, if what is on your heart is in conflict with what is written, where does the problem lie? Pun intended. Is what is written wrong? It would have to be for your statement to be true. Certainly you don't trust your own thinking over the bible? Your own heart over the Word of God? Methinks there is a problem with your statement. :sad.
 
Imagican said:
If we are still bound by 'law', then I submit that ALL ARE LOST. There is NOT ONE PERFECT, no not one. If you commit the least offense of the law, then you are guilty of them all.

Salvation fulfilled the law. We are NO LONGER bound to death through written law. Accept and rejoice over the freedom that Christ came and died to offer.

Ignore the law? Absolutely NOT. Learn from the law, and love God through the freedom to do so brought about by the Blood of Christ. Accept Christ into your heart and there will be absolutely NO NEED for a written law. Once one begins to understand the love that God has for us, we WILL obey the laws offered through this understanding.

IMA, you almost have it right.....I'll take your last paragraph one step furthur. As usual, those blinded by the concept of "Law" don't understand that we are now "Free" to observe the "Law" without the implications of the "Penalty" formerly imposted by the "Law".

Of course we need to have these written down for the very reason our Governmental laws are written down....So there will be no misconception or interpretation of how we "should" live. If it is written as a standard, those who want to live lawlessly make their defense that the "Standard to Righteousness" was nailed to the cross. That way they have the "carte blanc" to sin under the auspice of freedom from the Law....without having to try and live a rigteous life. In my opinion.
 
And here we go again. I am amazed that this understanding of law is so hard for many to grasp. I guess it's ones using of their minds instead of their hearts that makes it difficult to understand.

I promise you guys. If you love God and allow His love to grow in your life, the SPIRIT will convict you when you do that which is unholy. In the same respect, the Spirit will also guide you to a closer relationship with the Father. As this relationship grows, your ability and understanding of Love will grow. As this takes place, your behavior WILL conform to that which you call 'law'. NO, not because you choose to 'follow the law', but because, as your understanding and ability to love changes, so will that which guides your behavior.


'The Spirit' will change YOUR spirit. NOT a conscious effort on your part, but an act of love brought on by THE LOVE Of GOD.

If you think for one moment that you can learn what God wants for you by trying to follow the 'law', you are gravely mistaken. God does not want 'robots', simply obeying His law. What He wants most is for us to be able to understand, accept, and return His LOVE. Once one is able to come to this reality, they are able to form a conduit in which communication with God is once again possible.

If you are stuck in the same place that the Hebrews were, you must rely on 'someone else' to relay information to you from God. Or, if you follow the teachings of the RC, you must rely on the church to teach you. If you simply allow the Spirit to transform your hearts and let the love of God in, at this point you will then be able to 'begin' to LOVE God and your neighbor. You CANNOT do this yourself by following the 'law'. It is something that must be done by a developing relationship with the Father through His Son. If anything, the 'law' makes this more difficult.

Are there no indications that God and man were separated from the moment that Adam and Eve were banished from the garden? Not every man, but mankind in general? Why? Sin. Where did sin come from? The law. So, in order to have a personal relationship with God, one would have to have been sinless, (totally obey the law). This time was ended by Christ. That's what He came for. To bring us 'back' to God. To make it possible for us to KNOW God personally. Not through the 'law' but through love. The law was the teacher, Christ was the example, and now we may once again know God as He knows us. That is, if one wants this relationship.

I offer King David as example. The Bible states that David was a man after God's own heart. How can this be? David committed almost EVERY major sin known to mankind!!! He coveted, he murdered, he disobeyed God over and over again. His disregard for 'Torah' is NOTORIOUS. BUT, He loved God REGARDLESS of the LAWS which he broke. And also, did God communicate directly with David? As I recall, it was the prophet Nathan that brought much of God's communication to David. Think about what I'm saying here. David was a 'law breaker' continuously, yet God was still able to accept David because of what was in his heart. NOT for the DEEDS which he did, but because of the LOVE for God that David had in his heart REGARDLESS OF THE LAW.

The 'law' was created in order to show us HOW to love. It was completely unable to MAKE us love. Christ came as the ultimate EXAMPLE of this love.

And folks, I guarantee this also, those out there that have developed a serious relationship with the Father and know His love, understand EXACTLY what I am offering. Those that don't, have not been able to accept the forgiveness offered by God through His Son. They are simply unable to forgive themselves, hence they are unable to 'BELIEVE' that they can be forgiven by God. LET IT GO FOLKS. If God can forgive you, you CAN forgive yourself. Once the Spirit dwells within you, you will KNOW THIS. God loves us. Each and every one of us. Submit your LOVE to Him and those around you and you will KNOW His love for you without fail.
 
Imigican,

Not sure where that rant came from. Was it motivated by my post. Actually I pretty much agree with alot of it, (especially this:The 'law' was created in order to show us HOW to love. It was completely unable to MAKE us love. Christ came as the ultimate EXAMPLE of this love. " well stated) . Likely you think you are teaching me something I have never heard before in the Catholic Church. Not being an expert in such matters as you have proven yourself, your judgement on my belief system is duly rejected. Your first post was a false dichotomy. This one was much better.
 
Thess,

Sorry if what I posted appeared to be ranting. Not meant that way at all.

I do get a little depressed when I find those that appear to be serious about the Bible allowing the traditional teachings of men get in the way of their understanding of God and the relationship that they could have if they would only 'start over' instead of perpetuating what was forced upon their forefathers by the 'religion' of the past. It's kind of the same thing that was done to Judaism. What Moses brought to the people was taken from them within only a few hundred years after he died. The religious order started living and teaching from their own beliefs instead of simply following what had been offered by God.

Jesus begged those that heard Him to 'follow Him'. What He offered was a 'NEW' covenant. One that was much more conducive to a relationship with the Father through the Son. Something 'totally' different than that which they had been led to believe by their religious leaders. Old habits die hard and it's been no different with religions. So easy to change the rules, but so hard to accept a 'new' game.

Once again, no ranting intended and no, it wasn't inspired by your post. I had reread the entire thread when I made the last post. It was inspired more by sorrow than any kind of anger that would lead to ranting. I feel like; if I could only help them to understand............. I know, I know. I am NO different than many others except to myself.
 
Back
Top