Technicalities

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I dunno man...Paul spent an awful lot of time discussing Christ w/ unbelievers. There's the whole field of Christian apologetics to spread The Good News to a dark and dying world...

All depends donut? If the Spirit of Christ is with you in your witness, well, very funny things can happen. I like simplicity. And I have no agenda (to proselytize) and no pressure to try to "perform." That's not my yob.

But, for most of us (me included), you may have a point. I've found that when I just mention my (basic, traditional, Protestant) beliefs, some of my acquaintances get flustered. I don't think an indepth discussion would do much good in that situation.

I've met few (none that I can recall) unbelievers who have any legitimate grasp of the scriptures other than what they see on teevee or hear on the radio. Paul rejoiced in every way that Christ was proclaimed. I'd like to think Paul knew that it's Christ who gets the job done. Not us.

 

[OzSpen]

The unsaved only need to hear that Jesus died for them, rose from the dead, loves them and saves any person that calls upon him. That's as much as they need to know.

It's entirely pointless to discuss theology with an unbeliever.

Salvation means nothing to someone who doesn't know what he/she is being saved from. So, the need to expose sinners and their need is essential in the proclamation of the Gospel. However, exposing people as sinners meaning nothing unless they know God is a holy, righteous God.

So, these elements of theology are necessary when sharing the Gospel. See: The Content of the Gospel . . . and some discipleship.

 

[stovebolts]

Salvation means nothing to someone who doesn't know what he/she is being saved from. So, the need to expose sinners and their need is essential in the proclamation of the Gospel. However, exposing people as sinners meaning nothing unless they know God is a holy, righteous God.

So, these elements of theology are necessary when sharing the Gospel. See: The Content of the Gospel . . . and some discipleship.

Fact is, we often need to be saved from ourselves... In other words, we are often our own worst enemies the way I see it.
How does Christ save us from ourselves? Sometimes it's by simply trusting in His teachings. In other words, we can change our life style in accordance with the one who authored our existence.

Another thing we need to be saved from are those around us. Why? Because some people are just mean, and like to cause harm and the list could go on, and on, and on. We can be saved from those around us by learning to forgive. No need letting your enemy live rent free in your head. Forgiveness is a wonderful freeing agent. But it's not the only tool in the tool belt. Jesus teaches us how to deal with those who harm us.... Do we have faith to do the things Jesus did??

Life on this earth can be hell.... It just is. But we have something to look forward to, because we have tasted, and testify to its sweetness in this age, so we will be saved I. The next life from all that causes us sorrow or pain.... Either from ourselves, or from others.

It's all about what He did...

 

[Deborah13]

I consider part of the problem is that Christians have tried to convince others of a literal fire in hell. I've attempted to address this issue in, Is there literal fire in hell?

I like your article, Oz.
Rev. 22:14-15, 19 comes to mind, and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, what kind of water was he thirsting for?

I dunno man...Paul spent an awful lot of time discussing Christ w/ unbelievers. There's the whole field of Christian apologetics to spread The Good News to a dark and dying world...

Like at Mars Hill.

 

[JCitoL]

OK, you know what makes me crazy (we'll just shoot past the bad assumption that anyone would care)? People who reject an entire spiritual belief system based on a technical inconsistency. For example, I've heard more than once someone say something like, "There couldn't be a Hell. How could a place be full of fire and still be dark?" Well, you know what, I don't have any idea how fire can be dark. Or maybe I do, but what difference does it make? Is this any reason for rejecting the entire Biblical cosmology, or the concept of divine justice? Yet people say this or things like it, and in my opinion gamble away any chance for their own precious salvation. The weight of truth pulls down to your heart and soul, yet some people insist on being stuck inside their own head.

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.
reba

 

[Angel]

No need letting your enemy live rent free in your head.

LOL

 

[OzSpen]

Fact is, we often need to be saved from ourselves... In other words, we are often our own worst enemies the way I see it.
How does Christ save us from ourselves? Sometimes it's by simply trusting in His teachings. In other words, we can change our life style in accordance with the one who authored our existence.

Another thing we need to be saved from are those around us. Why? Because some people are just mean, and like to cause harm and the list could go on, and on, and on. We can be saved from those around us by learning to forgive. No need letting your enemy live rent free in your head. Forgiveness is a wonderful freeing agent. But it's not the only tool in the tool belt. Jesus teaches us how to deal with those who harm us.... Do we have faith to do the things Jesus did??

Life on this earth can be hell.... It just is. But we have something to look forward to, because we have tasted, and testify to its sweetness in this age, so we will be saved I. The next life from all that causes us sorrow or pain.... Either from ourselves, or from others.

It's all about what He did...

When you don't reply to the content of what I wrote in #22 (to which you responded with a backquote) and give your own spin on something that you think sounds similar, you are engaging in the use of a red herring logical fallacy. That is what you did here.

When you use a logical fallacy, you use fallacious reasoning and a reasonable conversation is not possible.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

reply to a deleted post reba

 

[stovebolts]

When you don't reply to the content of what I wrote in #22 (to which you responded with a backquote) and give your own spin on something that you think sounds similar, you are engaging in the use of a red herring logical fallacy. That is what you did here.

When you use a logical fallacy, you use fallacious reasoning and a reasonable conversation is not possible.

Oz

Lol, you remind me so much of myself in years past it really causes me to chuckle. Maybe that's why I enjoy reading your posts so well.

Listen, I haven't disagreed with you... What I've done is simply expanded the conversation. Let me tell you a little something I learned a few years ago right here on this forum.

When your mind primarily fixated on an apologetic view of the Bible, the scriptures no longer become living and active. Instead, it becomes a weapon which divides because each piece of text must be guarded and supported. As a result, those who do not speak the same theological view must be kept at a distance until they have proven they do not pose a challenge to the apologetic view. In other words, if we're not in agreement, we are divided.

One of the problems I found personally, was this view does not lend itself to healthy relationships very well. Also, it puts more emphasis in protecting an ideology than it does nurturing healthy, well rounded relationships.

You see, we are not only logical beings, but we are sentient beings as well. Is it logical, let alone rational that we as humans do illogical and un-rational things? Perhaps it's simply who we are and that my friend, is the conversation I bring into the picture, because the bible is more than doctrine.... It's a story about real people with real stories about real life that covers every rational and in-rational thought, feeling and action you could possibly consider.... And that's where wisdom is gleaned.

By the way, we are told to always be ready to give an account for what God has done for us... That is a conversation starter because it's an opportunity to share how God has transformed our life. It has been my experience, and no doubt there are other experiences just as valid, but I mean to say that thes conversations usually come up when somebody else is struggling with an issue in their life...

 

[JCitoL]

No need letting your enemy live rent free in your head.

LOL

if you say this to me, then i can tell you, to receive a revelation from the true God doesn't mean to pamper the devil

Blessings

 

[JCitoL]

reply to a deleted post reba

 

[reba]

closed Opened

We invite differ views to this site they are welcome as long as the fit into

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith

 

[OzSpen]

Lol, you remind me so much of myself in years past it really causes me to chuckle. Maybe that's why I enjoy reading your posts so well.

Listen, I haven't disagreed with you... What I've done is simply expanded the conversation. Let me tell you a little something I learned a few years ago right here on this forum.

When your mind primarily fixated on an apologetic view of the Bible, the scriptures no longer become living and active. Instead, it becomes a weapon which divides because each piece of text must be guarded and supported. As a result, those who do not speak the same theological view must be kept at a distance until they have proven they do not pose a challenge to the apologetic view. In other words, if we're not in agreement, we are divided.

One of the problems I found personally, was this view does not lend itself to healthy relationships very well. Also, it puts more emphasis in protecting an ideology than it does nurturing healthy, well rounded relationships.

You see, we are not only logical beings, but we are sentient beings as well. Is it logical, let alone rational that we as humans do illogical and un-rational things? Perhaps it's simply who we are and that my friend, is the conversation I bring into the picture, because the bible is more than doctrine.... It's a story about real people with real stories about real life that covers every rational and in-rational thought, feeling and action you could possibly consider.... And that's where wisdom is gleaned.

By the way, we are told to always be ready to give an account for what God has done for us... That is a conversation starter because it's an opportunity to share how God has transformed our life. It has been my experience, and no doubt there are other experiences just as valid, but I mean to say that thes conversations usually come up when somebody else is struggling with an issue in their life...

Stove,

So you've dished up another red herring fallacy.

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

Stove,

So you've dished up another red herring fallacy.

Oz

Im glad you enjoyed it. ;-)

You know, in my theology classes from way back we set rules. Rules of point. In other words, my theology consists of x y and z. It is not concerned with a b or c.
In reality, I pose no red herring. I simply bring a valid point of view you are not concerned with discussing.

Now then, onward Christian soldier, there are heritics to slay! Lol

Just kidding, my what a sense of humor I have. Lol


Take care

 

[Classik]

Im glad you enjoyed it. ;-)
............

Is that you, Stove? Is this our old friend, people? Stove O stove -----StoveBolts! wooooooooooooooooooow. Hurray! Party time

 

[OzSpen]

Im glad you enjoyed it. ;-)

You know, in my theology classes from way back we set rules. Rules of point. In other words, my theology consists of x y and z. It is not concerned with a b or c.
In reality, I pose no red herring. I simply bring a valid point of view you are not concerned with discussing.

Now then, onward Christian soldier, there are heritics to slay! Lol

Just kidding, my what a sense of humor I have. Lol

Take care

You don't seem to understanding what a red herring is and how you commit it over and over in your responses to me. We can't have a logical conversation when you engage in such erroneous reasoning.

Oz

 

[Wrg1405]

have found in the past that unbelievers mock Christianity and its beliefs as they cannot justify it; if something does not make sense or cannot be logically explained, it is ruled out as not feasible.

Interesting quote with which I agree with to a certain extent.

I was having a chat today at work with my boss. We were talking about presenters on the TV. I mentioned about how a presenter who used to present Match of the day (football) and recently was moved to prime time morning TV presenting the news and how this decision was slated. I explained that he was slated because he was a Christian, as I said that my boss said "I thought it was because he is creationist or something like that" I said yes he his, he is a Christian and a creationist, he is a new earth creationist and the decision was slated because it was felt that he could not present a balanced view of the news (if you ask me this was a attack on Chrsitianity)

I had to explain to my boss what a new earth creationist view is. He then responded with "Well what about fossils that are 50,000 years old?

To my boss 50,000 year old fossils makes sense because science teaches evolution, and it is logical.
Science and evolution is taught in mainstream education yet Christianity where taught does not deal with creation.

The minute you challenge science in terms of evolution with creation and God then you challenge world views perception of everything around us, how we got here and where we are going.

A God that created the world and us and who is in charge is not logical and because it is not logical it is rejected.
I have heard many times from non Christians when speaking to them "Science disproves God and creation" and it is very difficult to break through with a logical response as to the existence of God the creator. For,those of us who go down this root we need to ensure that we know what we are talking about otherwise we will look stupid.

So whilst we can try to defend the faith through apologetics I do not feel it can ever replace the following

BEING CHRIST LIKE.

When we stand before Jesus he is going to ask the following

Matthew 25:34-36

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Jesus told us to go the extra mile, love others as we love ourselves, do unto others as we would have them do to us.

He is not going to ask us "Did you manage to convince someone who has a mindset of of evolution that I exist?

Words without action mean diddly squat in the kingdom of God.

Don't get me wrong we do need to be able to answer questions that people raise like "If God is real why is there so much suffering, why did God command slaughter in the Old Testament?

However if we seek intellectual arguments at the expense of being Christ like then we will lose.

A quick personal experience. I have been playing scrabble with a guy for 3 years (never met him but was bought together by a friend that was playing him) anyway this guy is an athiest. We have had many a conversation, he has mocked my faith, sought to discredit it with science and world problems. As we played we got to know each other, I'm just me and he his just him. Now he asks me to pray for him, when the poo hits the fan I'm his first port of call for prayer, I call him up and pray, send prayers by e-mail, prayers by FaceTime.

Recently I have been suffering with eyesight problems and am waiting to see an eye doctor. He sensed I wasn't my normal self and asked what was wrong. I told him and he actually sent me a prayer, he actually prayed to God for me. Part of his prayer was "God I pray for Bill, he loves you and he is suffering, please help him"
He finished with these words to me "I think I'm becoming a Christian"

What has changed from 3 years ago to now? Not my intellectual responses to his arguments. To me it is just loving him as Christ loves him.

If you are interested there is a website Creation Ministries that reconciles creation against evolution. There are many highly educated scientists who answer questions about 50,000 year old fossils and such back to the bible accounts of creation.

Sorry about the long post.

I would encourage us all to be Christ like, allow the Holy Spirit to bring the wisdom of God in our lives as we spend time with those around us.

 

[stovebolts]

You don't seem to understanding what a red herring is and how you commit it over and over in your responses to me. We can't have a logical conversation when you engage in such erroneous reasoning.

Oz

Haha, love the fish.
Funny, your link stated that a red herring was a tactic to divert the topic as to win an argument.

Odd, I suppose I didn't realize we were arguing. Thing is, and as I've said.... An apologetic view begs dissension and division. What's more peculiar is that I don't believe I have ever disagreed with you or invalidated your view and I thought I articulated that in a clear, concise manner.

What I have stated, was I was simply expanding the conversation. I conclude, based on your aggression that something I have said somehow challenges one of your views. Yet you have not made that clear.

Enjoy your day.

 

[stovebolts]

Is that you, Stove? Is this our old friend, people? Stove O stove -----StoveBolts! wooooooooooooooooooow. Hurray! Party time

Haha, how did I miss this classic?

Get it.... Classic, classik!

 

[KevinK]

I actually enjoy discussion and analysis of the technical aspects of Christianity, even apparent inconsistencies where and if they occur. However, I don't seem to base my core belief in Christianity and the Bible on an intellectual foundation. I believe because I believe, and consider technical issues fascinating but ultimately peripheral. E.g. are there literal fires in Hell? One Christian would say yes, another say no, but we are both still Christian.