Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The “I AM†debate final put to rest.

have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

If I were speaking with someone that I did not want to reveal my identity to could I not say...Have you not read the letter, how Deborah says, "I am the mother of David, and the mother of John, and the mother of Ruth."?

Thanks for your comment.
In regards to this, in the very next breath Jesus states that HE (The God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob) is the God of the Living not of the dead.
I can't see Jesus telling a white lie to hide his identity. (This would ruin the Christians entire foundation) In fact he didn't hide his identity.(See john 10:24-25.)

regards

Matt

2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3;2-4

Who appeared to Moses from the burning bush?

Who saw Moses from the burning bush?

JLB
 
I didn't even know there was a debate about this. I thought it was a given that God the Father is the Great I am that I Am. Of course Jesus and the Father are one so I also can see where Jesus may say the same and not be lying or in error. Jesus clearly said he serves God (The Father) and that God (the Father) is his God. He bowed his face to the ground before The Father in prayer and worship Himself. What's hard to understand about this?

The Father is I AM?

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Exo 3:11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
Exo 3:12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So here we find I AM speaking to Moses...

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

It wasn't the Father speaking here, it was Christ. Same one who spoke to Abraham...

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I think your reasoning is off a tad here.
 
I think your reasoning is off a tad here.

Given your post and scriptures, I would have to agree with you. I thank you for the clarification. Blessings to you and yours.

And the intent was for clarification. I realize that sometimes I sound a little confrontational at times, even though I don't mean to. One of those qualities I need to overcome.
 
And the intent was for clarification. I realize that sometimes I sound a little confrontational at times, even though I don't mean to. One of those qualities I need to overcome.

Your tone didn't sound confrontational in the least to me. I think I just sort of assumed it once upon a time, but scripture sure makes it clear so I'll certainly agree with the scripture. I don't get everything correct but like to, so appreciate the clarification. I learn something new every day. Praise the Lord.

Hi Edward :wave

I had believed for many years the same as you that only the Father is the great I am. ...but I know that that is ok...because it is the Father that sends us to Jesus, because of what Jesus said...remember when He mentioned that no one can come to Jesus without the Father sending them to Him--I think somewhere in the book of John.

However, I had a hard time when I kept reading that Jesus created all, because I thought it was the Father. And even in the book of John, Jesus always referred to the Father, always did His will, and honored Him highly. And He even said after the resurrection that He still needs to go to the Father, my God and your God.

Finally only just several days ago I finally broke down and asked the Holy Spirit...'who created all?" In my spirit I got "BOTH" . I said 'both?' And then was reminded to look at Genesis 1:26 ... where He said.... let us make....

Yes they are one. They are the "I am" together.
When this kingdom, in the end, becomes Jesus'...He will hand it back over to the Father...Amen!

Have a good day,
Blessings in Christ...
 
“I had believed for many years the same as you that only the Father is
the great I am.”

Exodus 3:14 shows Moses asking about YHWHs name. It is clear from earlier scriptures that he already knew what the name WAS (mi in Hebrew). Instead he was asking what the name MEANT (mah in Hebrew). And the answer was ‘ehyeh.’ If one examines EVERY other use of the word ‘ehyeh’ in all the writings of Moses, you will find them rendered as “I WILL BE” (this includes the nearby verse Ex. 3:12)!! Yes the honest rendering of ex. 3:14 tells that God gave the meaning of his name as “I Will Be” NOT “I Am.” All this is examined in detail in a link given earlier on this same discussion (which does put the ’I Am’ argument ‘to a final rest’).

Since the Father’s name is considered to be in the third person, YHWH (‘Yahweh, Yehowah,’ etc.) should be understood as meaning “HE Will Be.” And YHWH is how it is given as his personal name nearly 7000 times in scripture (versus the SINGLE time ‘ehyeh’ is connected with his name at Ex. 3:14).

Although Jesus may have said ‘ego eimi’ (‘I am’) in the NT Greek of John 8:58, it is often understood to be intended in a past sense: “I was,” “I existed,” “I have existed,” etc. If the writer of John 8:58 had actually intended to parallel Exodus 3:14, however, he would have written in the NT Greek: “ego esomai” (‘I will be’).

So the Father (YHWH) and the Son are not connected by any “I am” statement.

…………………..

“However, I had a hard time when I kept reading that Jesus created all, because
I thought it was the Father.”

It WAS the Father (YHWH) who CREATED (‘ktizo’ in NT Greek; ‘bara’ in OT Hebrew) all. - e.g., Is. 45:18; Rev. 4:11.

Yes He created all things THROUGH ( ‘dia’ and, rarely, ‘en’ in NT Greek) his FIRSTborn. But this does not make the firstborn of creation (Col. 1:15) the CREATOR. It makes him (as in all other things) the intermediate, the one carrying out his Father’s will.

To illustrate: Suppose the one all-powerful ruler of a country decided to build a nice little palace out in the wilderness. He sends for his servant, the Master Worker, and commands him to build that palace. The King provides whatever materials are necessary for the Master Worker and tells him in great detail exactly how he wants it built.

The Master Worker sends for the chief stone mason, the chief carpenter, the chief artist, etc., tells them what their assignments are, and oversees their work.

We can see that, in the ultimate sense of “source” or “originator,” there is only one person whose will, command, design, and supply of building materials allow him to be called “the only one who created the palace.”

Notice how “through” solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures.

Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah” - 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven” - Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...” - James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the law”! Is that person, then, also equally God?

Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?” - John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah” is also called “the Law of Moses” - Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses IS Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!

Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] THROUGH [dia] Moses”) clearly explain it.

So it is that the Father (YHWH) CREATED all other things THROUGH his ‘only-begotten’ son.

…………………………….



Finally only just several days ago I finally broke down and asked the Holy
Spirit...'who created all?" In my spirit I got "BOTH" . I said 'both?'
And then was reminded to look at
Genesis 1:26 ... where He said.... let us
make....

Yes, we all (or certainly MOST of us who truly want to know the truth) pray for Holy Spirit to help us in our understanding. And nothing can be more persuasive to an individual than what he believes has been revealed to him.

However, we can find numerous individuals from numerous religions and sects who have so prayed and who are equally convinced they have received the truth (ask a devout Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, etc. who has had such a spiritual revelation). But, in spite of the great faith in their ‘revelations,’ we find that there are so many contradictions among them that there is no way that an honest person can consider such present-day ‘proofs’ as worthy of discussion.

Scholarly discussions of Gen 1:26 by trinitarians themselves (see the ‘Elohim’ study, f.n. #5) show that the very rare use of the plural “us” and “we” by God is easily explained: God is speaking to his angels and/or to his only-begotten son who were in heaven with Him at this time. Furthermore, God so often uses “I” or “me” as to make the extremely few uses of “us” to be nearly invisible.
 
Although Jesus may have said ‘ego eimi’ (‘I am’) in the NT Greek of John 8:58, it is often understood to be intended in a past sense: “I was,†“I existed,†“I have existed,†etc. If the writer of John 8:58 had actually intended to parallel Exodus 3:14, however, he would have written in the NT Greek: “ego esomai†(‘I will be’).
On the contrary, the context heavily favors Jesus as having said "I Am," just as God said of himself in Exodus 3:14. If Jesus was merely saying that he existed before Abraham, surely the Jews would have just laughed at him as speaking nonsense. But what do they do? They pick up stones to stone him, which was the penalty for blasphemy.

There is also a clear contrasting in John 8:58 of the temporal existence of Abraham and the eternal existence of Jesus. Again, it really makes no sense that Jesus would merely be saying that he existed before Abraham.

So the Father (YHWH) and the Son are not connected by any “I am†statement.
On the contrary, they are quite connected and I will show this when I have time.

It WAS the Father (YHWH) who CREATED (‘ktizo’ in NT Greek; ‘bara’ in OT Hebrew) all. - e.g., Is. 45:18; Rev. 4:11.

Yes He created all things THROUGH ( ‘dia’ and, rarely, ‘en’ in NT Greek) his FIRSTborn. But this does not make the firstborn of creation (Col. 1:15) the CREATOR. It makes him (as in all other things) the intermediate, the one carrying out his Father’s will.

To illustrate: Suppose the one all-powerful ruler of a country decided to build a nice little palace out in the wilderness. He sends for his servant, the Master Worker, and commands him to build that palace. The King provides whatever materials are necessary for the Master Worker and tells him in great detail exactly how he wants it built.

The Master Worker sends for the chief stone mason, the chief carpenter, the chief artist, etc., tells them what their assignments are, and oversees their work.

We can see that, in the ultimate sense of “source†or “originator,†there is only one person whose will, command, design, and supply of building materials allow him to be called “the only one who created the palace.â€

Notice how “through†solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures.

Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah†- 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven†- Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...†- James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the lawâ€! Is that person, then, also equally God?

Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?†- John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah†is also called “the Law of Moses†- Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses IS Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!

Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] THROUGH [dia] Mosesâ€) clearly explain it.

So it is that the Father (YHWH) CREATED all other things THROUGH his ‘only-begotten’ son.
And yet we must emphasize the obvious--that all things were created through Christ. So whether or not one argues to Jesus as Creator, anything that has come into existence has done so through him. Therefore, he cannot have been created. This is seen in John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16-17.

Scholarly discussions of Gen 1:26 by trinitarians themselves (see the ‘Elohim’ study, f.n. #5) show that the very rare use of the plural “us†and “we†by God is easily explained: God is speaking to his angels and/or to his only-begotten son who were in heaven with Him at this time. Furthermore, God so often uses “I†or “me†as to make the extremely few uses of “us†to be nearly invisible.
Clearly God is not speaking to the angels nor a created Son. The explanation which best takes everything in context would be that he is speaking to the eternal Son:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

If, as verse 27 states, "God created man in his own image," then "us" and "our" could not have been referring to angels or a created son. It is God who is doing the creating and it is in God's "own image" that man is created.


I ran out of time to address the first part but I will try and do so soon.
 
On the contrary, the context heavily favors Jesus as having said "I Am," just as God said of himself in Exodus 3:14. If Jesus was merely saying that he existed before Abraham, surely the Jews would have just laughed at him as speaking nonsense. But what do they do? They pick up stones to stone him, which was the penalty for blasphemy.

There is also a clear contrasting in John 8:58 of the temporal existence of Abraham and the eternal existence of Jesus. Again, it really makes no sense that Jesus would merely be saying that he existed before Abraham.


On the contrary, they are quite connected and I will show this when I have time.


And yet we must emphasize the obvious--that all things were created through Christ. So whether or not one argues to Jesus as Creator, anything that has come into existence has done so through him. Therefore, he cannot have been created. This is seen in John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16-17.

Scholarly discussions of Gen 1:26 by trinitarians themselves (see the ‘Elohim’ study, f.n. #5) show that the very rare use of the plural “us” and “we” by God is easily explained: God is speaking to his angels and/or to his only-begotten son who were in heaven with Him at this time. Furthermore, God so often uses “I” or “me” as to make the extremely few uses of “us” to be nearly invisible.
Clearly God is not speaking to the angels nor a created Son. The explanation which best takes everything in context would be that he is speaking to the eternal Son:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

If, as verse 27 states, "God created man in his own image," then "us" and "our" could not have been referring to angels or a created son. It is God who is doing the creating and it is in God's "own image" that man is created.


I ran out of time to address the first part but I will try and do so soon.



Hello Free :wave
I looked up Genesis 1:27 in Hebrew...and I don't see any singular form

Gen 1:27 ויבראH1254 אלהיםH430 אתH853 האדםH120 בצלמוH6754 בצלםH6754 אלהיםH430 בראH1254 אתוH853 זכרH2145 ונקבהH5347 בראH1254 אתם׃H853

I looked at the numbers on this verse and God is plural...verse 27 still follows verse 26 as plural.
Hopefully you can check into that and show us what you find.
Thank you...

Blessings...
 
“I had believed for many years the same as you that only the Father is
the great I am.”

Exodus 3:14 shows Moses asking about YHWHs name. It is clear from earlier scriptures that he already knew what the name WAS (mi in Hebrew). Instead he was asking what the name MEANT (mah in Hebrew). And the answer was ‘ehyeh.’ If one examines EVERY other use of the word ‘ehyeh’ in all the writings of Moses, you will find them rendered as “I WILL BE” (this includes the nearby verse Ex. 3:12)!! Yes the honest rendering of ex. 3:14 tells that God gave the meaning of his name as “I Will Be” NOT “I Am.” All this is examined in detail in a link given earlier on this same discussion (which does put the ’I Am’ argument ‘to a final rest’).

Since the Father’s name is considered to be in the third person, YHWH (‘Yahweh, Yehowah,’ etc.) should be understood as meaning “HE Will Be.” And YHWH is how it is given as his personal name nearly 7000 times in scripture (versus the SINGLE time ‘ehyeh’ is connected with his name at Ex. 3:14).

Although Jesus may have said ‘ego eimi’ (‘I am’) in the NT Greek of John 8:58, it is often understood to be intended in a past sense: “I was,” “I existed,” “I have existed,” etc. If the writer of John 8:58 had actually intended to parallel Exodus 3:14, however, he would have written in the NT Greek: “ego esomai” (‘I will be’).

So the Father (YHWH) and the Son are not connected by any “I am” statement.

…………………..

“However, I had a hard time when I kept reading that Jesus created all, because
I thought it was the Father.”

It WAS the Father (YHWH) who CREATED (‘ktizo’ in NT Greek; ‘bara’ in OT Hebrew) all. - e.g., Is. 45:18; Rev. 4:11.

Yes He created all things THROUGH ( ‘dia’ and, rarely, ‘en’ in NT Greek) his FIRSTborn. But this does not make the firstborn of creation (Col. 1:15) the CREATOR. It makes him (as in all other things) the intermediate, the one carrying out his Father’s will.

To illustrate: Suppose the one all-powerful ruler of a country decided to build a nice little palace out in the wilderness. He sends for his servant, the Master Worker, and commands him to build that palace. The King provides whatever materials are necessary for the Master Worker and tells him in great detail exactly how he wants it built.

The Master Worker sends for the chief stone mason, the chief carpenter, the chief artist, etc., tells them what their assignments are, and oversees their work.

We can see that, in the ultimate sense of “source” or “originator,” there is only one person whose will, command, design, and supply of building materials allow him to be called “the only one who created the palace.”

Notice how “through” solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures.

Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah” - 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven” - Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...” - James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the law”! Is that person, then, also equally God?

Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?” - John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah” is also called “the Law of Moses” - Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses IS Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!

Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] THROUGH [dia] Moses”) clearly explain it.

So it is that the Father (YHWH) CREATED all other things THROUGH his ‘only-begotten’ son.

…………………………….



Finally only just several days ago I finally broke down and asked the Holy
Spirit...'who created all?" In my spirit I got "BOTH" . I said 'both?'
And then was reminded to look at
Genesis 1:26 ... where He said.... let us
make....

Yes, we all (or certainly MOST of us who truly want to know the truth) pray for Holy Spirit to help us in our understanding. And nothing can be more persuasive to an individual than what he believes has been revealed to him.

However, we can find numerous individuals from numerous religions and sects who have so prayed and who are equally convinced they have received the truth (ask a devout Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, etc. who has had such a spiritual revelation). But, in spite of the great faith in their ‘revelations,’ we find that there are so many contradictions among them that there is no way that an honest person can consider such present-day ‘proofs’ as worthy of discussion.

Scholarly discussions of Gen 1:26 by trinitarians themselves (see the ‘Elohim’ study, f.n. #5) show that the very rare use of the plural “us” and “we” by God is easily explained: God is speaking to his angels and/or to his only-begotten son who were in heaven with Him at this time. Furthermore, God so often uses “I” or “me” as to make the extremely few uses of “us” to be nearly invisible.

I am not associated with any of these...that is called religion. I am with only my Bible, concordance (numbers--Hebrew and Greek) and the Holy Spirit. I don't listen to preachers or of the sort. I am not associated with "scholars" or "intellectuals" or of "man". I am only associated with the simple Word of God being led by the Holy Spirit. And I surely have to be steadfast in Him to be able to listen to "Him" and even asking Him to confirm what I have gotten. If it does not check with the Word of God...then I don't speak it. And if I mispoke...I will confess publicly. I don't receive what I receive from other's books, schooling etc.

I hope that helps....
Thank you for sharing...

Blessings...
 
“I had believed for many years the same as you that only the Father is
the great I am.â€

Exodus 3:14 shows Moses asking about YHWHs name. It is clear from earlier scriptures that he already knew what the name WAS (mi in Hebrew). Instead he was asking what the name MEANT (mah in Hebrew). And the answer was ‘ehyeh.’ If one examines EVERY other use of the word ‘ehyeh’ in all the writings of Moses, you will find them rendered as “I WILL BE†(this includes the nearby verse Ex. 3:12)!! Yes the honest rendering of ex. 3:14 tells that God gave the meaning of his name as “I Will Be†NOT “I Am.†All this is examined in detail in a link given earlier on this same discussion (which does put the ’I Am’ argument ‘to a final rest’).

Since the Father’s name is considered to be in the third person, YHWH (‘Yahweh, Yehowah,’ etc.) should be understood as meaning “HE Will Be.†And YHWH is how it is given as his personal name nearly 7000 times in scripture (versus the SINGLE time ‘ehyeh’ is connected with his name at Ex. 3:14).

Although Jesus may have said ‘ego eimi’ (‘I am’) in the NT Greek of John 8:58, it is often understood to be intended in a past sense: “I was,†“I existed,†“I have existed,†etc. If the writer of John 8:58 had actually intended to parallel Exodus 3:14, however, he would have written in the NT Greek: “ego esomai†(‘I will be’).

So the Father (YHWH) and the Son are not connected by any “I am†statement.

…………………..

“However, I had a hard time when I kept reading that Jesus created all, because
I thought it was the Father.â€
It WAS the Father (YHWH) who CREATED (‘ktizo’ in NT Greek; ‘bara’ in OT Hebrew) all. - e.g., Is. 45:18; Rev. 4:11.

Yes He created all things THROUGH ( ‘dia’ and, rarely, ‘en’ in NT Greek) his FIRSTborn. But this does not make the firstborn of creation (Col. 1:15) the CREATOR. It makes him (as in all other things) the intermediate, the one carrying out his Father’s will.

To illustrate: Suppose the one all-powerful ruler of a country decided to build a nice little palace out in the wilderness. He sends for his servant, the Master Worker, and commands him to build that palace. The King provides whatever materials are necessary for the Master Worker and tells him in great detail exactly how he wants it built.

The Master Worker sends for the chief stone mason, the chief carpenter, the chief artist, etc., tells them what their assignments are, and oversees their work.

We can see that, in the ultimate sense of “source†or “originator,†there is only one person whose will, command, design, and supply of building materials allow him to be called “the only one who created the palace.â€

Notice how “through†solves any possible confusion in the following scriptures.

Even though the Law was spoken of as “the Law of Jehovah†- 1 Chron. 16:40, and “the law of the God of heaven†- Ezra 7:12, and we are specifically told “there is only one Lawgiver ...†- James 4:12, NASB, we still see another person “giving the lawâ€! Is that person, then, also equally God?

Yes, the inspired scriptures also tell us, “Did not Moses give you the law?†- John 7:19 NASB. And the same “Law of Jehovah†is also called “the Law of Moses†- Malachi 4:4. Must we conclude then, trinitarian-style, that Moses IS Jehovah the God of heaven? Of course not!!

Even if we were unable to figure it out on our own, scriptures such as John 1:17 (“The law was given [from God] THROUGH [dia] Mosesâ€) clearly explain it.

So it is that the Father (YHWH) CREATED all other things THROUGH his ‘only-begotten’ son.

…………………………….



Finally only just several days ago I finally broke down and asked the Holy
Spirit...'who created all?" In my spirit I got "BOTH" . I said 'both?'
And then was reminded to look at
Genesis 1:26 ... where He said.... let us
make....

Yes, we all (or certainly MOST of us who truly want to know the truth) pray for Holy Spirit to help us in our understanding. And nothing can be more persuasive to an individual than what he believes has been revealed to him.

However, we can find numerous individuals from numerous religions and sects who have so prayed and who are equally convinced they have received the truth (ask a devout Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, etc. who has had such a spiritual revelation). But, in spite of the great faith in their ‘revelations,’ we find that there are so many contradictions among them that there is no way that an honest person can consider such present-day ‘proofs’ as worthy of discussion.

Scholarly discussions of Gen 1:26 by trinitarians themselves (see the ‘Elohim’ study, f.n. #5) show that the very rare use of the plural “us†and “we†by God is easily explained: God is speaking to his angels and/or to his only-begotten son who were in heaven with Him at this time. Furthermore, God so often uses “I†or “me†as to make the extremely few uses of “us†to be nearly invisible.


Who is speaking is this verse -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


JLB
 
I had always believed that they were separate but working together as "one". And Jesus was there in the O.T. Jesus said that He is one with the Father. He is in Jesus and Jesus is in Him. Even they be so...we are to honor both equally. I know that Jesus, after taking the kingdom at the end, will hand it back to the Father...hmmm...wonder where that verse it. I need to go look.

I am still learning just like you Edward...lol

Blessings...
 
There was another time also. The transfiguration maybe? Jesus and a few disciples were on a mountaintop and a cloud came down and surrounded them and there was a voice from the cloud? The Father. His voice has been heard I think.

If anyone has heard the Father's voice then Christ lied. Had to be an angel announcing for God. Gabriel comes to mind here.
 
I had always believed that they were separate but working together as "one".


This is not the one you speak of in this post but another separate but one in my understanding. If this has been shared already, sorry.

Matt 12:16-18
16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
 
So here we find I AM speaking to Moses...

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Hey, I just thought of something. What about when Jesus was baptised and the voice from heaven, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..." ?? WHO WAS THAT?

I don't know that when the Father spoke that it was actually audible to all the natural ears. I've wondered if it wasn't something He spoke by the Spirit into the hearts of those who could hear. If it is clear and I've missed something, someone please correct me.
 
If anyone has heard the Father's voice then Christ lied. Had to be an angel announcing for God. Gabriel comes to mind here.

Maybe not. Wasn't the scripture where it was said that no one had heard the Fathers voice in the OT? Then the voices from heaven and from the cloud were in the NT, after Jesus arrival. So while it was true before, the Father may have decided to speak once Jesus arrived? Just conjecture.

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
 
So here we find I AM speaking to Moses...

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Hey, I just thought of something. What about when Jesus was baptised and the voice from heaven, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..." ?? WHO WAS THAT?

I don't know that when the Father spoke that it was actually audible to all the natural ears. I've wondered if it wasn't something He spoke by the Spirit into the hearts of those who could hear. If it is clear and I've missed something, someone please correct me.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

Seems to be audible and natural here. Would be a very good "difficult scripture" for a sermonette topic.
 
The overriding principle for the above question and other "difficult scriptures" is...

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 
If anyone has heard the Father's voice then Christ lied. Had to be an angel announcing for God. Gabriel comes to mind here.
How is it that something which Jesus spoke prior to the transfiguration somehow nullifies what happened during the transfiguration, especially when two very different groups of people are involved? In John 5 Jesus is speaking to "the Jews," those of the Temple--chief priests, scribes, etc.--whereas at the transfiguration, it was his closest of disciples--Peter, James, and John.

There simply is no reason to not believe that it was the Father's voice that was heard at the transfiguration.

But the point is moot since it really has nothing to do with the topic that I can see.
 
I had always believed that they were separate but working together as "one". And Jesus was there in the O.T. Jesus said that He is one with the Father. He is in Jesus and Jesus is in Him. Even they be so...we are to honor both equally. I know that Jesus, after taking the kingdom at the end, will hand it back to the Father...hmmm...wonder where that verse it. I need to go look.

I am still learning just like you Edward...lol

Blessings...

That scripture is 1 Corinthians 15:24
 
Here is where the Lord led me to this morning to share on this thread...I turned right to it. The Lord is awesome and so amazing---so faithful.

I mentioned about us being the temple of God...and there are many that are claiming that they are gods and set up in the heart that they are.
I also in that previous post mentioned that the Lord showed me that Joel Osteen as an example of the "I am" going on these days.
Here is scripture that the Lord showed me right after that (about a year ago(?) not sure exactly):

Isa 47:5 Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.
Isa 47:6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.
Isa 47:7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.
Isa 47:8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
Isa 47:9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.
Isa 47:10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
Isa 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
Isa 47:12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.


There is more to this chapter, but I wanted to post just those few verses...

Blessings...
 
Back
Top