The 144,000 and the current Christian population in Israel

[civilwarbuff]

I would have to disagree, primarily for the reason that Revelation quotes, word for word, Babylonian astronomy texts on Venus

Maybe you would be so kind as to post the relevant scripture along with the Babylonian astronomy texts on Venus so we may all compare them and discuss them?

 

[Douglas Summers]

But's that just my opinion

Hi Apousia, That is why there are so many denominations, cults and religions...Too many are based on their founders opinions. At least you admit it (that it is your opinion) and not sound doctrine..

 

[th1b.taylor]

Where does your reasoning come from?

The World. Sssshhhh! They do not believe God is that Author and that he did not create anything in six days,almost every time. Oh, and the bible isall etaphorical,I've heard from one or two.

 

[Papa Zoom]

People, if you don't like what's being discussed, don't participate. But I've yet to hear enough to make any judgments. And I don't believe in a 6 day creation either. And the Bible isn't to always be taken literally. So what? Let's hear what others have to say with respect to the OP.

 

[Douglas Summers]

People, if you don't like what's being discussed, don't participate. But I've yet to hear enough to make any judgments. And I don't believe in a 6 day creation either. And the Bible isn't to always be taken literally. So what? Let's hear what others have to say with respect to the OP.

Hi Papa, It does not matter what you or I believe as to what God has given to us. What matters is the Truth...and few find it, because they are not looking for it. Man has always thought he was smarter than God and only uses contexted or neglected Scripture to push their wisdom so called. Here is what Christ confirms about the OT Scriptures: The Mosaic authorship (Matt. 22:23-32) was from God. (Mark 7:8-13). God spoke to Moses (Mark 12:26). Christ confirms the Pentateuch as God inspired.. Salvation is by faith in "The Christ of God". Christ also confirms a day as 24 hours (John 11:9). Something to think about....how much do we trust Christ?

 

[Apousía]

Maybe you would be so kind as to post the relevant scripture along with the Babylonian astronomy texts on Venus so we may all compare them and discuss them?

Sure, but, like I said in my post, it's common phrasing, and therefore found in many texts, were you seriously planning on reading hundreds of cuneiform texts ? ( Methinks not )

Here are some common Babylonian omen phrasings:

" clothed with the sun / moon "
" surrounded by a crown of stars / having a crown of stars "


A few text numbers, as they are cataloged:

K.13849:4
K.13845:4

VAT 10218:19
VAT 10218:20
VAT 10218:21
VAT 10218: 25


" crowned by _____ " is just a phrase that means " in front of ______" in astronomy texts

An example would be an eclipse of the Sun, with the Moon being the " crown " of the Sun in the eclipse

" wearing the sun / moon " or " having the sun / moon at ____'s feet / head " just means the object is above or below another object in the sky

As far as literature on Venus, I would start simple, maybe the tablet from the collection known as the Enuma Anu Enlil, the Venus tablet of Ammisaduqa (Enuma Anu Enlil Tablet 63)

Those can easily be read on sites like the CDLI or the CCP, although I prefer the CCP and use the ePSD for my translations

Some more light reading that might help is a book like " Babylonian planetary omen without special title "

 

[Apousía]

The World. Sssshhhh! They do not believe God is that Author and that he did not create anything in six days,almost every time. Oh, and the bible isall etaphorical,I've heard from one or two.

If by " they ", you are referring to me, that would be completely contradictory to my personal beliefs, if you are in fact insinuating that I do not believe that God is the author of the Bible ( By way of the Holy Spirit, naturally )

As far as my exegesis, and how it happens - after a miracle remission from brain cancer that happened in one night, ( 5 years ago now ) a voice started talking to me, and told me if I wanted answers I would have to open the Bible

When I did, I guided me, and still does to this day

I personally don't think you have " heard it all ", because in my world, nobody knows less than the person who knows it all

 

[Apousía]

Hi Apousia, That is why there are so many denominations, cults and religions...Too many are based on their founders opinions. At least you admit it (that it is your opinion) and not sound doctrine..

Ahhh, but you see, this works both ways

I can easily claim that your opinion of my exegesis is uninformed and that you are misled, and therefore your doctrine is not sound, as opposed to mine

The only way to settle the issue is to vet claims

Considering I use for my writings and studies, nothing other than the Bible and the concordances, as well as the TWOT, and online sites provided by universities like Yale and Oxford, one would be rather hard-pressed to find any example of " unsound doctrine " in any of my claims

In my experience " unsound doctrine " is just a phrase people usually toss out when they are confronted with something unfamiliar, so I really don't carry that water too far

 

[for_his_glory]

Reasoning ?

Don't think I understand what you're asking

Did you mean " How did you arrive at your particular exegesis ? "

I'm asking what Babylonian mathematical astronomy and the eclipse of the moon has to do with the 144,000 Jews that will be preaching the Gospel during the time of Gods mighty wrath in the end times.

John was never a High Priest and the Revelations were given to John by Christ to write down the visions he received and send them to the seven Churches in Asia while being imprisoned on the isle of Patmos by the Romans for his witness and testimony of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

Interesting

I would have to disagree, primarily for the reason that Revelation quotes, word for word, Babylonian astronomy texts on Venus

In fact, it uses rather standard phrasing found in just about any Babylonian " Omen " text ( Eclipses / signs in the sky ) , which themselves preserve Sumerian writing written in Akkadian cuneiform

But that much is plainly obvious to any student of Mesopotamian literature

Can you give us those word for word scriptures please?

Rev 6:1 says nothing about High Priest, but that He has made us kings and priest unto God. It's the same in 2 Peter 2:9 that we are a royal priesthood to God as we minister the word of God to others, but not the actual Minister behind a literal pulpit. It's like John and all the Disciples who were literal fishermen, but after Jesus called them they became fishers of man as they ministered to others.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[Apousía]

Well, I guess you'll have to read the articles on my forum

An explanation requires weeks of me teaching you, and weeks of you actually listening

 

[Apousía]

I listed them several posts up

Cheers

 

[for_his_glory]

I listed them several posts up

Cheers

It's not that all of this is not an interesting study, but that it should be a topic of its own as I do not see the relevance of it to what was said in the OP.

 

[Apousía]

I would disagree

For the topic to be " virgins ", and have astronomy have no bearing on the conversation would be like saying the Bible has nothing to do with Jesus

Everybody is an expert on virgins, but nobody ever knows what a molad ( birth ) is, is my experience, which is surprising, considering how complex these topics really are when you go deep

Literally the staple of the calendars, a molad ( birth ) is the synodic month length as defined by the well-known Babylonian average, which is still in use today in the modern Hebrew calendar ( In fact Hillel II had to drop the strictly lunar calendar for civil time and go back to using the standard Mesopotamian luni-solar calendar, using that average month length )

The Bible, especially Revelation, is rife with astronomy conventions

Let's review Revelation 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb


As it happens, " firstfruits " is one of the topics that connects to the very first word in the Bible

The first word is b'reishit, or bereishit (בְּרֵאשִׁית‎). The definite article (i.e., the Hebrew equivalent of "the") is missing, but implied. The complete word literally means "in [the] beginning [of]". The same construction is found elsewhere in the Hebrew bible, usually dealing with the beginning of a reign


See Strong's Hebrew 7225

Original Word: רֵאשִׁית
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: reshith
Phonetic Spelling: (ray-sheeth')
Short Definition: beginning
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from rosh
Definition : beginning, chief


beginning (19), choice (2), choicest (3), finest (2), first (16), first fruits (7), foremost (2)


From " rosh ", ( head ) we know " rosh chodesh " ( new moon )

Knowing when and announcing New Moon ( a " flood " ) was, ( being the duty of a High Priest, until the Sanhedrin realized they had no priest ) dependent on knowing the synodic month average , ie a " birth " ( molad )

These topics in turn connect to some very interesting things about the exegesis / knowledge held by a High Priest

Like I have stated, 144,000 and 666 are for deriving a dimensionless number that describes proportionality in the 3 body system of Earth / sun and the Moon in Syzygy ( a " sign in the sky " ) which was in turn used to give the value of a " seal " , which in turn is given to these same virgins

So, for me to agree that " 144,000 " virgins has nothing to do with astronomy would be disagreeing with what God has shown me about the scriptures

 

[Douglas Summers]

Ahhh, but you see, this works both ways

I can easily claim that your opinion of my exegesis is uninformed and that you are misled, and therefore your doctrine is not sound, as opposed to mine

Of course you could say that, and none of your doctrine is sound because you admitted that it is your opinion. But I don't need your approval or expertise of your studies and opinions to know what is Truth.....because it found me. I was lost, not the Lord. I kept looking for the Lord that fit my image of Him or who He was....but my image of Him did not exist. But the Christ of God that always existed found me. If He found you and you had faith in Him...You would know what I know, Then it would no longer be your opinion, but instead, The Truth. He is alive and well and living in us. For it is not I now, but Christ in me. (Gal. 2:20) (Rom. 8:5-17) (John 3:3) BTW, I don't have a doctrine.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Sure, but, like I said in my post, it's common phrasing, and therefore found in many texts, were you seriously planning on reading hundreds of cuneiform texts ? ( Methinks not )

Here are some common Babylonian omen phrasings:

" clothed with the sun / moon "
" surrounded by a crown of stars / having a crown of stars "


A few text numbers, as they are cataloged:

K.13849:4
K.13845:4

VAT 10218:19
VAT 10218:20
VAT 10218:21
VAT 10218: 25


" crowned by _____ " is just a phrase that means " in front of ______" in astronomy texts

An example would be an eclipse of the Sun, with the Moon being the " crown " of the Sun in the eclipse

" wearing the sun / moon " or " having the sun / moon at ____'s feet / head " just means the object is above or below another object in the sky

As far as literature on Venus, I would start simple, maybe the tablet from the collection known as the Enuma Anu Enlil, the Venus tablet of Ammisaduqa (Enuma Anu Enlil Tablet 63)

Those can easily be read on sites like the CDLI or the CCP, although I prefer the CCP and use the ePSD for my translations

Some more light reading that might help is a book like " Babylonian planetary omen without special title "

So, zero context in answering my request.....not surprised.

 

[for_his_glory]

I was interested in knowing what the current population of Christians would be in the nation of Israel. In Dec 2016, the Christian population was about 170,000. Considering the fact that some of these are Gentile Christians, that could be pretty close to the 144,000 figure given in the book of Revelation, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

I thought it was interesting..

I should have caught this in the beginning. Are making reference to the 144,000 of every tribe in Rev Chapter 7:1-8 or the 144,000 virgins in Rev 14;1-5?

 

[for_his_glory]

Apousia,
When you put Babylonian numerology, astrology and omens together it throws up a red flag to me. The sun, moon and stars in scripture has nothing to do with Babylonian omens, or astrology as Christ has already said, can you not discern the signs of the times, as Jesus was speaking about all the signs given in Matthew 24 to watch for before His return. Astrology is not going to change the sun into darkness or cause earthquakes as it is Gods mighty power that will do all of that.

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Apousía]

Please cite the poster you're responding to. Makes life simpler.

But I never suggested that the devil is blamed for the sins of the world. Each person is held accountable for the sins they commit.

Apousia,
When you put Babylonian numerology, astrology and omens together it throws up a red flag to me. The sun, moon and stars in scripture has nothing to do with Babylonian omens, or astrology as Christ has already said, can you not discern the signs of the times, as Jesus was speaking about all the signs given in Matthew 24 to watch for before His return. Astrology is not going to change the sun into darkness or cause earthquakes as it is Gods mighty power that will do all of that.

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Interesting, a red flag

Red light is ~ 666 nanometers in wavelength

Thanks for pointing that out

I disagree, naturally, but that is more based on the seemingly obvious fact you don't seem to be able to differentiate astrology from astronomy

Did you want to debate the origins of mathematical astronomy VS astrology in the context of Biblical prophecy ?

 

[Apousía]

So, zero context in answering my request.....not surprised.

Oh, a post of substance

Well, to return your volley, sir, I am not surprised by your response either



Should I go ahead and sit here waiting for Obama to put a microchip in my forehead after CERN opens a portal to Niburu ?