The 144,000

[turnorburn]

Hello researcher,

You stated: I thought they came and went already?

My response: No, not yet.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Ever hear of Arnold Murray?

 

[ResilientFaith]

i do not think the 144 are the only ones saved during the tribulation, because in revelations 7 it also mentioned an innumerable crowd

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Here's the correct timing for Revelation 7--

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must SHORTLY take place. And He went and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep the things which are written in it; FOR THE TIME IS NEAR" (Rev. 1:1-3).

"Then he [the angel] said to me, 'These words are faithful and true.' And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must SHORTLY take place. "Behold I am coming SOON . . . . 'Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is AT HAND" (22:6, 10)!

Maatthew24:34

 

[guysmith]

Hello turnorburn,

You stated: Ever hear of Arnold Murray?

My response: No, should we?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[guysmith]

Hello ResilientFaith,

You stated: i do not think the 144 are the only ones saved during the tribulation, because in revelations 7 it also mentioned an innumerable crowd

My response: There will be millions if no billions saved, however, they shall have been martyred. According to the scriptures, 144,000 will be the only males "redeemed" or physically alive at Christ's return.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by ResilientFaith
i do not think the 144 are the only ones saved during the tribulation, because in revelations 7 it also mentioned an innumerable crowd

The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God. The four angels are told to hold back the four winds of the Great Tribulation until the 144,000 are sealed. (Revelation 7:3) When 144,000 people have been sealed, the Great Tribulation will begin. Revelation 14:4 says the 144,000 will be presented to God and the Lamb as firstfruits of Earth’s harvest . The 144,000 are called firstfruits because they are the finest, and first to mature of the rest of the crop that follows. If wheat was presented as a firstfruits offering, the harvest that followed would also be wheat. The 144,000 and the numberless multitude that come after them will be the same 'crop' (faithful, pure). The 144,000 are called firstfruits in Revelation 14:4 because they are the first to be sealed; after which a great harvest, a numberless multitude (the rest of the same crop that matures later) will follow them and will be sealed during the Great Tribulation.

Originally posted by guysmith
My response: There will be millions if no billions saved, however, they shall have been martyred. According to the scriptures, 144,000 will be the only males "redeemed" or physically alive at Christ's return.

Who says the 144,000 have to be males? That is not correct.

The phrase "did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure" is not about sexual immorality; but rather, it is a phrase describing the devotion of the 144,000 to serve the Lord. This is a phrase symbolizing "idolatry" (keep in mind "the woman" sitting upon the beast in Revelation 17). This parallel is used throughout the Scriptures:

2 Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Not defiled by women is simply an analogy that means they are "faithful" to Jesus Christ, and follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, not worshipping false religion/false messiah.

 

[Cornelius]

Originally posted by ResilientFaith
i do not think the 144 are the only ones saved during the tribulation, because in revelations 7 it also mentioned an innumerable crowd

The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God. The four angels are told to hold back the four winds of the Great Tribulation until the 144,000 are sealed. (Revelation 7:3) When 144,000 people have been sealed, the Great Tribulation will begin. Revelation 14:4 says the 144,000 will be presented to God and the Lamb as firstfruits of Earth’s harvest . The 144,000 are called firstfruits because they are the finest, and first to mature of the rest of the crop that follows. If wheat was presented as a firstfruits offering, the harvest that followed would also be wheat. The 144,000 and the numberless multitude that come after them will be the same 'crop' (faithful, pure). The 144,000 are called firstfruits in Revelation 14:4 because they are the first to be sealed; after which a great harvest, a numberless multitude (the rest of the same crop that matures later) will follow them and will be sealed during the Great Tribulation.

[quote:lj4n0pwg]Originally posted by guysmith
My response: There will be millions if no billions saved, however, they shall have been martyred. According to the scriptures, 144,000 will be the only males "redeemed" or physically alive at Christ's return.

Who says the 144,000 have to be males? That is not correct.

The phrase "did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure" is not about sexual immorality; but rather, it is a phrase describing the devotion of the 144,000 to serve the Lord. This is a phrase symbolizing "idolatry" (keep in mind "the woman" sitting upon the beast in Revelation 17). This parallel is used throughout the Scriptures:

2 Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Not defiled by women is simply an analogy that means they are "faithful" to Jesus Christ, and follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, not worshipping false religion/false messiah.[/quote:lj4n0pwg]


You are correct. Its a repeat on a larger scale of the history in the time of Jesus. We are looking at the new leadership that the Lord is going to raise up to take the church through the tribulation.

Strictly speaking we should draw the first fruit line of the 144000 from Jesus (He is the correct example of the 144000) The 144000 are these: Mat 13:8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The "hundred fold" produced the most fruit, where the fruit represents the nature, character and authority of Christ.

These are indeed "virgins" as you say they are. From their description we can see they are indeed mature Christians who speak the Word of God in all things, just like Jesus did:

Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.(Did not partake of the religions of men ) These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.(Jesus went to the cross , so these followed to die to their old nature ) These were purchased from among men,(From among men, not from Israel only. This group comes out of the whole earth) to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lieNo lie, because they only speak the Word which is truth) they are without blemish. (They have been cleansed through their faith and are holy and sanctified , walking in victory over sin )

 

[guysmith]

Hello Osgiliath,

The 144,000 are the male count of a larger group. The Bible identifies the women as "the daughters of Zion."

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[guysmith]

Hello C,

The word "virgin" is a catchphrase which ties this passage with the parable of the ten "virgins." Notice how both this scripture and the parable are both describing events which lead up to the advent of Christ?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[Cornelius]

Hello Osgiliath,

The 144,000 are the male count of a larger group. The Bible identifies the women as "the daughters of Zion."

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Daughters of Zion, simple means churches or denominations, not real woman

 

[Cornelius]

Hello C,

The word "virgin" is a catchphrase which ties this passage with the parable of the ten "virgins." Notice how both this scripture and the parable are both describing events which lead up to the advent of Christ?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

These "virgins" are also not just women, but are the same as the "virgins" in Revelation. They can be male too, because we are all suppose to be virgins regarding the religions of men.

These virgins however is not related to the virgins in Revelation. The Revelation virgins are part of the Bride-group , whereas the virgins in the parable , are part of the guests at the wedding feast. Notice the Bride is not part of these virgins.

Seeing the the Bride includes both male and female Christians, should give us the understanding that these virgins are also not just about women.

 

[guysmith]

Hello C,

You stated: Daughters of Zion, simple means churches or denominations, not real woman

My response: So,,,,,,,, Isaiah 4 is talking about churches or denominations and not real women?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[Cornelius]

Hello C,

You stated: Daughters of Zion, simple means churches or denominations, not real woman

My response: So,,,,,,,, Isaiah 4 is talking about churches or denominations and not real women?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Indeed yes:


Isa 4:1 And seven women (seven churches as in Revelation) shall take hold of one man (Christ) in that day,(our day) saying, We will eat our own bread (eat the doctrine of man, not the true Bread (Word)), and wear our own apparel:(Wear their own righteousness ) only let us be called by thy name;(Just call us Christians anyhow) take thou away our reproach.

 

[guysmith]

Hello C,

According to tradition, the groom would have accepted the bride and would be enroute to the festivities. While enroute, the groom and bride would be joined by the brides girl friend or bridesmaids, which would also be virgins. So, in the parable, the groom has already received the bride and is in route to the festivities. The groom is not coming to marry the virgins, the "virgins" or bridemaids are just part of the wedding entourage.

That said, the five wise virgins are part of the "church," however, they aren't the bride. Therefore the church is not the bride.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[Cornelius]

Yes , the whole church is not the Bride. Some of the church will be the Bride, then you will get the guests at the feast, and also "friends of the Groom"

.....................................

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of Jehovah(These are the 144000 ) be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit (First fruits) of the land shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion,(Kingdom of God, true church) and he that remaineth in Jerusalem,(the true church is called Jerusalem) shall be called holy,(all those are holy that enters into the spiritual Jerusalem, nothing unholy can enter:Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes,(HOLY) that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. ) even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem; )
Isa 4:4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,(The denominations are filthy in the sight of the Lord) and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof, by the spirit of justice, and by the spirit of burning.

 

[guysmith]

C,

Daniel 4:12 states that the understanding of Daniel’s prophecy (and the mystery of Bible prophecy as a whole) would not be understood until the end times. That means, that past traditional interpretations are in error (if they weren’t in error, then Bible prophecy would have been understood in the past). Your position is honorable, however, traditional.

I am not trying to win an argument over you. I am trying to convey a hidden message which requires thinking outside the envelope. I know my position seems non-traditional, however, there is a method.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[Cornelius]

C,

Daniel 4:12 states that the understanding of Daniel’s prophecy (and the mystery of Bible prophecy as a whole) would not be understood until the end times. That means, that past traditional interpretations are in error (if they weren’t in error, then Bible prophecy would have been understood in the past). Your position is honorable, however, traditional.

I am not trying to win an argument over you. I am trying to convey a hidden message which requires thinking outside the envelope. I know my position seems non-traditional, however, there is a method.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

It does not say "and the mystery of Bible prophecy as a whole"



It simply means that we will start seeing the reality in our days, which indeed is true. We can see the NWO forming in front of our eyes. We can now start to give names to the end time players , whereas in the time of Daniel they could not.

 

[MMarc]

C,

Daniel 4:12 states that the understanding of Daniel’s prophecy (and the mystery of Bible prophecy as a whole) would not be understood until the end times. That means, that past traditional interpretations are in error (if they weren’t in error, then Bible prophecy would have been understood in the past). Your position is honorable, however, traditional.

I am not trying to win an argument over you. I am trying to convey a hidden message which requires thinking outside the envelope. I know my position seems non-traditional, however, there is a method.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

It does not say "and the mystery of Bible prophecy as a whole"



It simply means that we will start seeing the reality in our days, which indeed is true. We can see the NWO forming in front of our eyes. We can now start to give names to the end time players , whereas in the time of Daniel they could not.

Good point C,

When Jesus came the first time notice how the demonic manifested around him?
They were always there in human vessels to torment them but they only ''manifested'' at His coming...

Today I know the Spirit of the Lord is upon the world because not only demons who oppress people are now manifested as we see many being delivered by the spirit of the Lord.

But like the NWO is unfolding and is being manifested, we can now discern not only demons but fallen angels, they are like the princes of the ''air'' and they influence the nations and their people...

But the good news is where sin abounds grace abounds even more... As today many discern the manifested sons of God as well.

Jesus returns for His bride first, the most important part of the body of Christ is His heart, the one whom He loves... They will recognize their bridegroom at His coming by the power of the Holy Spirit.

They will ''hear His voice''

 

[nmwings]

"For the Lord will show mercy to Jacob and will choose Israel, and will grant them rest in their own land: and the strangers (proselytes = Gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall be attached to the house of Jacob." Isa 14:1.

The 144,000 will be the only male Christians alive at that time, fore if there were any others, those Christians would also suffer the fifth trumpet plague.

I will somewhat agree with you in that after the 7th Shofar (Trumpet), no believers shall be left on earth. God's people shall see tribulation, but not the full Wrath of God. However, Revelation makes it VERY clear that the 144,000 are JEWS - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, NOT Christians. Revelation also makes it clear that they shall all be men. Sometimes scripture will use the term "virgin" to refer to those who are not defiled by other gods. Since Rev. 14:4 expounds further that they "were not defiled with women," means they are true virgins, having never been with a woman. So, unless you are male virgin Jew, you shall not be sealed as part of the 144,000.

Here is the group that are not Jewish, but are from the whole earth (Gentiles)
Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men(Notice MEN, not Israel), to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
1) 144000 from the earth, from among men
2) 144000 from every tribe of Israel
Two groups.

The Bible went to great length to clarify who the 144,000 are. If there is a second group, it would stand to reason that the Bible would take great lengths to describe them as well. There is only one group of 144,000, and contrary to what you might believe... Jews ARE "redeemed among men."

Have you taken up your cross and followed Jesus, like He asked? If so, then you will not have to physically die during the tribulation.

Then how do you explain this? Rev 6:11 "...And it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED JUST AS THEY WERE, should be fulfilled."

So to have the Word as your thoughts, means you have the mark on your forehead. You are marked by your walk in the Lord. Your actions, your thoughts, your love, you being like Christ, marks you and the angel of death will pass over you.

You have come to this conclusion, and rightly so. Yet you do not comprehend the true meaning of what it says! You just bulldoze right over it and not give it a second thought! It means, that out of 6+ BILLION people on this planet, THERE ARE ONLY 144,000 WHO ARE "WITHOUT FAULT BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD." Rev 14:5 - Does this not make the hair on the back of your neck stand straight up? It should!!

Yes , the whole church is not the Bride. Some of the church will be the Bride, then you will get the guests at the feast, and also "friends of the Groom"

Where does God's chosen people fit in? You know... Israel? You make no mention of them. WE (Gentiles) are grafted onto THEIR (Jews) vine, not the other way around! "For the Lord will show mercy to Jacob and will choose Israel, and will grant them rest in their own land: and the strangers (proselytes = Gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall be attached to the house of Jacob." Isa 14:1.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of Jehovah (These are the 144000 ) be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit (First fruits) of the land shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

"The Branch of the Lord" is synonymous with "The Branch (or 'Root') of Jesse" and is the MESSIAH! Isaiah 11:1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots."

Jer 23:5 "Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch and a King shall reign and prosper and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In His days, Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is His name whereby He shall be called 'THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS'."

Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion,(Kingdom of God, true church) and he that remaineth in Jerusalem,(the true church is called Jerusalem) shall be called holy,

If you drop down 2 verses (Isa 4:5) your interpretation of "Zion" and "Jerusalem" being the "church" suddenly has mud on its face. "And the Lord will create over every stucture of Mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the glow of flaming fire by night..." Zion and Jerusalem are PLACES, not THINGS. Now drop down to 5:1 and compare that song with the song in Rev. 14:1-3. Both of these passages are showing very clearly that the 144,000 are the Children of Israel standing on Mount Zion with the Messiah, singing a song.

Isa 4:4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,(The denominations are filthy in the sight of the Lord) and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof, by the spirit of justice, and by the spirit of burning.

These are not denominations, but nations of the world.

The doctrine which you cleave to, called "Replacement Theology," is the assumption that God has replaced Israel with the church. Try as you may, there is not one shred of evidence to support this EXCEPT IN YOUR MINDS!

Isa 5:7 "For the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the House of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant."

 

[Vic C.]

Where does God's chosen people fit in? You know... Israel? You make no mention of them. WE (Gentiles) are grafted onto THEIR (Jews) vine, not the other way around! "For the Lord will show mercy to Jacob and will choose Israel, and will grant them rest in their own land: and the strangers (proselytes = Gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall be attached to the house of Jacob." Isa 14:1.

If you drop down 2 verses (Isa 4:5) your interpretation of "Zion" and "Jerusalem" being the "church" suddenly has mud on its face. "And the Lord will create over every structure of Mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the glow of flaming fire by night..." Zion and Jerusalem are PLACES, not THINGS. Now drop down to 5:1 and compare that song with the song in Rev. 14:1-3. Both of these passages are showing very clearly that the 144,000 are the Children of Israel standing on Mount Zion with the Messiah, singing a song.

The doctrine which you cleave to, called "Replacement Theology," is the assumption that God has replaced Israel with the church. Try as you may, there is not one shred of evidence to support this EXCEPT IN YOUR MINDS!

Amen! Very good post. I have a different belief about the last trump, but it's irrelevant to the topic. Good job overall. :amen