Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The 144,000

nmwings said:
However, Revelation makes it VERY clear that the 144,000 are JEWS - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, NOT Christians.
I disagree - I believe that the 144000 in Revelation 7 are the same as the 144000 in Revelation 14:1, and in both cases this is a reference to Christian martyrs, whether Jew or Gentile.

One reason is that in the 1st century AD, the 12 tribes of Israel did not exist. This is perhaps not the strongest of arguments. Much more strong is the fact that, by this point in the letter, John has already used descriptions of ethnic Israel to refer to the Jew + Gentile church. It would be a break from that pattern if he is suddenly reverting to use the 12 tribes image - clearly an "ethnic Israel"
denotation if taken at face value - to actually refer to ethnic Israel. I realize that I need to argue this point. For now, I will just state it.

Note also, that there is this category of a "true Israel", constituted by both Jew and Gentile floating around in the New Testament. It is there in places like Romans 9 and 11 as well as Galations (the "Israel of God).

Here in James 1:1 is a use of the 12 tribes identifier to refer to an audiences which actually consists of both Jews and Gentiles:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.


Will you challenge me that this is really a cryptic way to refer to an audience that is made of up of both Jews and Gentiles? You have every right to do so.

Or this from Matthew 19:

28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

To keep things short, I will merely assert that this is actually an allusion to the church. Clearly, anyone can challenge me on this.

And finally this from Luke 22:

that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Again, I maintain that this is polemical re-defintion of the term "Israel" and that Jesus is actually talking about the church.

Much of this post has been merely assertion of a position. I realize this - I want to keep the post short and I will defend later (hopefully).

For the moment, the reader should know that I am claiming that throughout the New Testament, the term "Israel" - including reference to the 12 tribes - is often used to denote the church.

And that is what I believe is happening in Revelation with the reference to 144000. This is a treatment of martyrs, both Jew and Gentile.
 
Back
Top