The abomination of desolation is now seen.

[Stormcrow]

First: I would be very careful when relying upon the translated Septuagint for we see it written, "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." (2Cor 3:14-16) Therefore the Lord, by the writing of Paul has let us know that unless they turn to Christ they cannot see what is written.

So by this are you suggesting that the Jewish Masoretes, who translated the OT in the Middle Ages, were followers of Christ?

The "blinders" were put on during Christ's earthly ministry and remain so for those who refuse to accept Him.

The 70 priests who translated the Septuagint before Christ's coming were under no such constraint. They were still looking forward to His appearance, not rejecting it.

Second: If we believe, which we do, that the Scriptures came forth by the Hand of God (holy men of God wrote as they were led of the Spirit) rather than from the mind of man, then it would not seem wise to say that what Luke wrote was from his perspective.

Luke had no Godly perspective until he met Paul. He would've had to learn of these things from Paul, just as Paul did sitting at the feet of Gamaliel.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when the Lord references the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet He spoke of that time as a period of, "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Mat 24:21) And in Mark 13:19 the Lord Jesus said, "...in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

Read Josephus' account of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. You can find it online. In one story, he recounts in vivid detail about the cannibalism that was happening inside Jerusalem during the siege.

Further, the "vengeance" to which Luke alludes:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

Is found here:

34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

You can't understand Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse properly without reading Luke's account of it.

 

[sdktlk]

So by this are you suggesting that the Jewish Masoretes, who translated the OT in the Middle Ages, were followers of Christ?

The "blinders" were put on during Christ's earthly ministry and remain so for those who refuse to accept Him.

The 70 priests who translated the Septuagint before Christ's coming were under no such constraint. They were still looking forward to His appearance, not rejecting it.

Luke had no Godly perspective until he met Paul. He would've had to learn of these things from Paul, just as Paul did sitting at the feet of Gamaliel.

Read Josephus' account of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. You can find it online. In one story, he recounts in vivid detail about the cannibalism that was happening inside Jerusalem during the siege.

Further, the "vengeance" to which Luke alludes:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

Is found here:

34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

You can't understand Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse properly without reading Luke's account of it.

Let's just skip all the rest and center in on this:

In Luke 21, the Lord Jesus in His discourse with the disciples, spoke of the fact that there would be nation rising against nation, wars famines, earthquakes, etc. Then Jesus said, "But before all these..." (Luk 21:12) and began to discuss some particular things that would happen to the ones He was speaking to and some certain things that they should watch out for. The coming destruction of Jerusalem being one of those things. And He called this destruction, "...the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luk 21:22)

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when the Lord references the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet He spoke of that time as a period of, "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Mat 24:21) And in Mark 13:19 the Lord Jesus said, "...in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

Vengeance - Greek, ekdikēsis, From G1556; vindication, retribution: - (a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.

Tribulation and affliction are both the same word - Greek, thlipsis, From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The punishment spoken of in Luke IS NOT the same thing as the pressure, affliction, anguish, burden, persecution, tribulation, trouble spoken of in Matthew and Mark.
The Lord's discourse in Luke concerning the days of vengeance has absolutely nothing in common with His discourse Matthew and Mark concerning tribulation or affliction.

It does not get any clearer than that.

 

[Stormcrow]

See the following link for a comprehensive dissertation on what I've been writing:

The Olivet Discourse [Matthew 24 / Mark 13 / Luke 21]

 

[Hitch]

Let's just skip all the rest and center in on this:

In Luke 21, the Lord Jesus in His discourse with the disciples, spoke of the fact that there would be nation rising against nation, wars famines, earthquakes, etc. Then Jesus said, "But before all these..." (Luk 21:12) and began to discuss some particular things that would happen to the ones He was speaking to and some certain things that they should watch out for. The coming destruction of Jerusalem being one of those things. And He called this destruction, "...the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luk 21:22)

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when the Lord references the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet He spoke of that time as a period of, "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Mat 24:21) And in Mark 13:19 the Lord Jesus said, "...in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

Vengeance - Greek, ekdikēsis, From G1556; vindication, retribution: - (a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.

Tribulation and affliction are both the same word - Greek, thlipsis, From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The punishment spoken of in Luke IS NOT the same thing as the pressure, affliction, anguish, burden, persecution, tribulation, trouble spoken of in Matthew and Mark.
The Lord's discourse in Luke concerning the days of vengeance has absolutely nothing in common with His discourse Matthew and Mark concerning tribulation or affliction.

It does not get any clearer than that.

You're saying that the burning of the city, the 7 woes proclaimed by Christ himself and the parable of the Landowner's Son have nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Since Christ is ascended Im curious as to your take on the denouement, Christ is not going to be on earth to suffer another murder.

 

[Lehigh3]

Let's just skip all the rest and center in on this:

In Luke 21, the Lord Jesus in His discourse with the disciples, spoke of the fact that there would be nation rising against nation, wars famines, earthquakes, etc. Then Jesus said, "But before all these..." (Luk 21:12) and began to discuss some particular things that would happen to the ones He was speaking to and some certain things that they should watch out for. The coming destruction of Jerusalem being one of those things. And He called this destruction, "...the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luk 21:22)

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when the Lord references the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet He spoke of that time as a period of, "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Mat 24:21) And in Mark 13:19 the Lord Jesus said, "...in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

Vengeance - Greek, ekdikēsis, From G1556; vindication, retribution: - (a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.

Tribulation and affliction are both the same word - Greek, thlipsis, From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

The punishment spoken of in Luke IS NOT the same thing as the pressure, affliction, anguish, burden, persecution, tribulation, trouble spoken of in Matthew and Mark.
The Lord's discourse in Luke concerning the days of vengeance has absolutely nothing in common with His discourse Matthew and Mark concerning tribulation or affliction.

It does not get any clearer than that.

Parallel passages in the synoptic gospels

Matt.24:15-22 NKJV
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place†(whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:14-20 NKJV
The Great Tribulation

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not†(let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Luke 21:20-24 NKJV
The Destruction of Jerusalem

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


And I will take it a step further & state that in all 3 accounts- this is also the time of His Coming-the same as His Second Coming - the same as the Return of Christ- the same as the nature of His coming in the clouds over Jerusalem during the great tribulation.

John doesn't give a great tribulation account. His is Revelation. "Fall on us!" (Rev.6) fulfillment of Luke 23:30,
30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!†and to thehills, “Cover us!â€â€™

 

[Vic C.]

The phrase "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24 is actually defined for us in its parallel passage found in Luke 21. Here are the two verses:

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), Matthew 24:15 (NASB)

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB)

The "abomination of desolation" (literally, the "hated thing which causes destruction") was the four legions of Rome that surrounded and besieged Jerusalem in 66-67 AD, a siege that lasted three and a half years, culminating in its reduction to rubble in 70 AD.

Luke describes Christ's prophecy of this event in greater detail than Matthew:

41 When He [Jesus] approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43 "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB)

The hated legions of Rome surrounding, besieging, and ultimately destroying Jerusalem is what is meant by the "abomination of desolation."

For what it's worth.

Don't worry Storm, I got it. It's pretty much the way Newton observed it also. :yes it sinks in when one stops interjecting the ekklesia into every possible passage in the Bible.

 

[Elijah674]

Nope. Sorry. Still not seeing the connection you're trying to make here.

The only thing I can draw from what you've written now (in 2 posts) is that you believe that Christ was speaking about His church and not Jerusalem or the Temple vis a vis this sentence:

"The DESOLATE Church is a Christless one!"

Since this appears to be the only sentence from which I can make any sense, let's look at it.

First, Christ was clearly speaking about the Temple and Jerusalem in Matthew 23 and 24 (as He was in Luke 19 and 21).

Second, in Matthew 21 and 22, when Christ is seen confronting the Scribes and Pharisees, He speaks to them in parables all of which signify that the Kingdom of God is going to be taken away from them. So again, He is talking to the religious leaders (Jews) of His time and prophesying about things that would happen - as fulfilled - in 70 AD.

Nothing regarding the "abomination of desolation" has anything to do with the Christian church. That's merely your interpretation of the passages you've strung together, but it's not what these passages are either about in prophesy or history.

Finally, you keep stressing the desolation part of the prepositional phrase "abomination of desolation", but you do realize that "of desolation" - when used in a sentence - cannot be the subject of the sentence, right? Abomination would be the subject. Desolation merely describes the nature, character, and work of the abomination. What does the abomination do? The abomination makes desolate.

Taking your view literally, what is the abomination (the "hated thing") which causes "ruin?" Is it Christ? Is it the Jews? What is the abomination in your view of these passages?

(my above highlites) Of course it is Christ! (Eccl. 3:15) He is & was the hated Christ! Was He not executed in the midst of the week by His own? And by doing this, satan took over Christ's ex/Virgin House! They documented their Isa. 5:3 choice of 'house' over & above Christ!

And if you can ever (1 Peter 1:8-12's angels even!) [in Eternal History] find another Abomination of total rejection of the Eternal Godhead, let me know! Dan. 9:27 has it defined to an exact Prophecy! And the 70 weeks marks the time to the 34 AD total rejection of the Jews as a favored nation. (Not 70 AD!)

--Elijah

 

[Sam21]

Matt 24,Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all describing the same events, Luke presented a different perspective, however it is obvious that all three stories are about Jesus description of the same events.

 

[Stormcrow]

(my above highlites) Of course it is Christ! (Eccl. 3:15) He is & was the hated Christ! Was He not executed in the midst of the week by His own? And by doing this, satan took over Christ's ex/Virgin House! They documented their Isa. 5:3 choice of 'house' over & above Christ!

In the context of the Olivet Discourse, the Romans are the bad guys. But I noticed a slight change in your response. In the quote above, you call Christ the abomination but in your next quote you say the abomination is the "total rejection of the eternal Godhead."

Which is it?

(BTW, you do realize that the word abomination in the OT represented both sin in general and idolatry in particular, don't you? I'd be careful about calling Christ an abomination.)

And if you can ever (1 Peter 1:8-12's angels even!) [in Eternal History] find another Abomination of total rejection of the Eternal Godhead, let me know!

Genesis 3:6-7

What do I win? :D

 

[Stormcrow]

I do agree that the 70 weeks ended with the stoning of Stephen: an event that took place, most believe, about 3.5 years after Christ ascended. And I'm currently working on a theory as to how this relates to Revelation. Here's what I seem to be getting so far:

Christ ascends to Heaven (Acts 1) and 40 days later opens the First Seal: the rider on the White Horse represents the Holy Spirit going out to His followers. (Note the rider of the White Horse carries a bow but no arrows - a bow to guide and instruct, not kill. He's is also sent out to conquer, but not through force of arms).

As the followers become emboldened by the power of the Holy Spirit (literally adding thousands of souls daily to the church, Acts 2:47). This period of relative peace for the Jews and the newly born church lasts 3.5 years (Revelation 12: 14-17). Then Satan, who was cast out of Heaven with the ascendance of Christ (Rev. 12) finds Stephen, and puts it in the heart of the Sanhedrin to stone him.

At that point, persecution arises in Jerusalem and throughout Judea that drives Christ's followers out of the city. (Acts 11:19)

Enter the rider on the Red Horse: the Second Seal.

With the stoning of Stephen, war is declared on the church. Those who were devout Jews and now follow Christ, are turned on by their families. Here is how the Red Horse is described:

3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." 4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him. Revelation 6:3-4 (NASB)

And what did Christ say of His ministry?

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. Matthew 10:34-36 (NASB)

It's clear these early followers loved the Lord more than father, mother and even life itself, because they continued to spread the gospel under withering persecution from their Jewish brothers and neighbors.

The black horse's rider now appears to come on the scene, as famine begins overtaking areas of the Roman Empire, including a severe famine in Jerusalem, during the reign of Claudius Caesar (41-54 AD). Josephus recounts the story of this great famine that broke out in Jerusalem:

Now her coming was of very great advantage to the people of Jerusalem; for whereas a famine did oppress them at that time, and many people died for want of what was necessary to procure food withal, queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of corn, and others of them to Cyprus, to bring a cargo of dried figs. And as soon as they were come back, and had brought those provisions, which was done very quickly, she distributed food to those that were in want of it, and left a most excellent memorial behind her of this benefaction, which she bestowed on our whole nation. And when her son Izates was informed of this famine, he sent great sums of money to the principal men in Jerusalem.

The Works of Flavius Josephus, Antiquities, Book 20, Chapter 2, Section 5

With the opening of the Third Seal (famine), I believe there can be no doubt that Jerusalem was already suffering under God's judgment.

All that was to follow was the appearance of the Pale Horse (Death and Hades), the Fourth Seal: a spirit that would hound Jerusalem until its final destruction.

As noted, this is just a theory I'm trying to work out as I try to reconcile the apocalyptic passages in Matthew, Mark, and Luke with those in Revelation.

No dogma here yet, just thinking "out loud." :D

 

[Sinthesis]

(my above highlites) Of course it is Christ! (Eccl. 3:15) He is & was the hated Christ! Was He not executed in the midst of the week by His own? And by doing this, satan took over Christ's ex/Virgin House! They documented their Isa. 5:3 choice of 'house' over & above Christ!

And if you can ever (1 Peter 1:8-12's angels even!) [in Eternal History] find another Abomination of total rejection of the Eternal Godhead, let me know! Dan. 9:27 has it defined to an exact Prophecy! And the 70 weeks marks the time to the 34 AD total rejection of the Jews as a favored nation. (Not 70 AD!)

--Elijah

I may agree with this, at least as far as I can understand it at fourth glance.

 

[sdktlk]

Then it should be easy to explain , from the text, why Luke included and entirely different scene while he also avoided the destruction common to Mark and Matt.

Do you see Mark and/or Matt speaking of the same thing Luke sees anywhere?

All three Gospels "fill up" one another. But, the VENGEANCE (ekdikēsis) spoken of by Luke is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem for having crucified Christ is not the same as the TRIBULATION/AFFLICTION (thlipsis) spoken of in Matthew and Mark. They are two entirely different things.

"Every Word of God is pure" (Pro 30:5) and the words contained in Scripture are put there by God for a specific reason and cannot just be lumped together and said to mean or be the same thing. Hitch, I know you know that to be true, I say this for others who read.

 

[Stormcrow]

All three Gospels "fill up" one another. But, the VENGEANCE (ekdikēsis) spoken of by Luke is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem for having crucified Christ is not the same as the TRIBULATION/AFFLICTION (thlipsis) spoken of in Matthew and Mark. They are two entirely different things.

By focusing on one single word, you seem to be missing the forest for the trees here. Look at these verses in context compared to one another:

1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." Matthew 24:1-2 (NASB)

5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 6 "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down." Luke 21:5-6 (NASB)

Same event so far, correct?

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:3 (NASB)

They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" Luke 21:7 (NASB)

Same event so far, correct?

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Matthew 24:4-8 (NASB)

8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them. 9 "When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately." 10 Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Luke 21:8-11 (NASB)

Same event so far, correct?

9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14 (NASB)

12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. 13 "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. 14 "So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; 15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. 16 "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all because of My name. 18 "Yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 "By your endurance you will gain your lives. Luke 21:12-19 (NASB)

Same event so far, correct?

Now contextually, how would it make sense that Matthew and Luke are describing exactly the same series of events right up until the point they start talking about Jerusalem's desolation, and then suddenly start describing two separate events?

Instead of focusing on a single word, look instead at the similarities of language used (highlighted below):

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:15-22 (NASB)

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

Matthew and Luke are describing EXACTLY the same series of events each in their own, unique way!

The difference between these accounts is the way in which Luke explains things so that his readers are better able to understand what he's describing. Matthew - writing primarily to Jews - knew that his audience would "get it." This is why even though Matthew has more chapters, Luke is the longest book in the NT: Luke is far more careful to describe things so his readers will understand, and thus uses more words to do so.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The phrase "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24 is actually defined for us in its parallel passage found in Luke 21. Here are the two verses:

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), Matthew 24:15 (NASB)

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB)

The "abomination of desolation" (literally, the "hated thing which causes destruction") was the four legions of Rome that surrounded and besieged Jerusalem in 66-67 AD, a siege that lasted three and a half years, culminating in its reduction to rubble in 70 AD.

Luke describes Christ's prophecy of this event in greater detail than Matthew:

41 When He [Jesus] approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43 "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB)

The hated legions of Rome surrounding, besieging, and ultimately destroying Jerusalem is what is meant by the "abomination of desolation."

For what it's worth.

SO TRUE!!! This AofD also occurred in the centuries prior to Jesus' birth when Antiochus IV Epiphanes initially fulfilled this prophecy of Daniel. Nonetheless, we are not given any indication from scripture that this prophecy would have any sort of modern "type" that will again be fulfilled.

 

[Lehigh3]

All three Gospels "fill up" one another. But, the VENGEANCE (ekdikēsis) spoken of by Luke is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem for having crucified Christ is not the same as the TRIBULATION/AFFLICTION (thlipsis) spoken of in Matthew and Mark. They are two entirely different things.

"Every Word of God is pure" (Pro 30:5) and the words contained in Scripture are put there by God for a specific reason and cannot just be lumped together and said to mean or be the same thing. Hitch, I know you know that to be true, I say this for others who read.

No. Luke is describing the SAME event. Your trying to play with words & make no sense out of the scripture passages by any of them! Every word may be pure- but it cannot be considered out of CONTEXT!

If for instance, my good sweater was destroyed by a permanent stain. That sweater was destroyed in that event. I can describe what happened to it differently than another that witnesses (or who knows of ) its demise, so as not to be redundant with the same adjectives again.

You must consider that Luke was a Macedonian, & wrote more towards a Gentile audience.

One can tell by his verses continuing on in Luke 21- the next verse (& we had originally, remember- no chapter & verse distinction) His next verse after Jesus said, "And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles (Roman pagans- for time,times, & a half time) until the TIMES of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24b.
Continuing on with Luke 21:25- Jesus shows what would happen in His generation (as to the other disciples) how He sat at the right hand of power at that time & began to use it to put down His enemies (the Jews who wanted both He & Peter & Paul, etc dead)
Then Jesus in Luke 21:25-28NKJV describes the same distress on Jerusalem as the other apostles - BUT NOTE HOW IN LUKE the rewards for the saints (redemption ) would draw near.

Luke stresses more about those that would be the object of His "salvation" in His second appearing.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man


25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.â€

Jesus had a second coming, or second appearing (parousia) - not a 3rd or separate "coming" or "return" for the righteous to receive their rewards.

Notice THEY will see the Son of man coming with power. Not the righteous. Christ returned FOR them FOR their sake & to fulfill His promises- but the Pharisees & Jewish leader (tribes of the land) were the ones to perceive His POWER as the SON AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER over Jerusalem.

One coming- one change in the Covenant:
Rev.11:15-19 NKJV,
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed


15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!†16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:


“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. [emph. mine]


One event. The "earth" there is the 4 heavens or corners of Israel- the land.

Do you see what we are telling you that there is one calamity one event- at the end of that generation - that Mosaic age?

 

[Hitch]

All three Gospels "fill up" one another. But, the VENGEANCE (ekdikēsis) spoken of by Luke is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem for having crucified Christ is not the same as the TRIBULATION/AFFLICTION (thlipsis) spoken of in Matthew and Mark. They are two entirely different things.

"Every Word of God is pure" (Pro 30:5) and the words contained in Scripture are put there by God for a specific reason and cannot just be lumped together and said to mean or be the same thing. Hitch, I know you know that to be true, I say this for others who read.

3

5And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Thats obvious enough.

And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This too.
2

4Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

That is plain as daylight.

 

[sdktlk]

3
Thats obvious enough.

Evidently not to some.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It takes spiritual wisdom from God !

hitch:

Then it should be easy to explain

Not so, for Jesus said:

matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

Only the wise shall understand Dan 12:

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

[Sam21]

Re: It takes spiritual wisdom from God !

hitch:



Not so, for Jesus said:

matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

Only the wise shall understand Dan 12:

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

That is true,but only God knows who the wise are,we may think we understand something but we could be wrong.

 

[sdktlk]

Re: It takes spiritual wisdom from God !

That is true,but only God knows who the wise are,we may think we understand something but we could be wrong.

"Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." (Pro 4:5-7)

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (Jas 1:5-8)

Seems simple enough to know. If I don't know what is right I need to stay before the Lord until He MAKES ME KNOW. Until that time revelation comes I need not declare what I know. To discuss what I think is not wrong, it just needs to be made clear that it is simply a thought and not a knowing. :yes

Everyone seems to want to be a prophet or a teacher but we see it written, "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." (Jas 3:1)

Again, it is one thing to converse and discuss, it is another thing to say I know. Peace.