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The abomination of desolation is now seen.

Everyone seems to want to be a prophet or a teacher but we see it written, "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." (Jas 3:1)

And yet,

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

14
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16 (NASB)

If you're gift isn't teaching - that is you don't believe you can know something and thus can't communicate that truth with clarity and conviction - you shouldn't be teaching.

It's clear, however, God has appointed teachers and it's those from whom we should be learning.

For what it's worth.
 
By focusing on one single word, you seem to be missing the forest for the trees here. Look at these verses in context compared to one another:

Same event so far, correct?

Same event so far, correct?

Same event so far, correct?

Same event so far, correct?

Now contextually, how would it make sense that Matthew and Luke are describing exactly the same series of events right up until the point they start talking about Jerusalem's desolation, and then suddenly start describing two separate events?

Instead of focusing on a single word, look instead at the similarities of language used (highlighted below):

Matthew and Luke are describing EXACTLY the same series of events each in their own, unique way!

The difference between these accounts is the way in which Luke explains things so that his readers are better able to understand what he's describing. Matthew - writing primarily to Jews - knew that his audience would "get it." This is why even though Matthew has more chapters, Luke is the longest book in the NT: Luke is far more careful to describe things so his readers will understand, and thus uses more words to do so.

I think we would all agree that the Apostle Paul was endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit for the carrying out of his ministry, for we can see them all manifested at different points in his writings.

That being the case care should be exercised in the dismissing of what one single word can do, with respect to what is being communicated. For we hear Paul say, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16) In this we discover the significance of a word, even down to the singularity or plurality of it.

Again, Vengeance is not at all the same thing as Tribulation or Affliction. And, as that is the case, one has to determine what vengeance is being spoken of and what tribulation/affliction is being spoken of, as they are two different events.
 
In the context of the Olivet Discourse, the Romans are the bad guys. But I noticed a slight change in your response. In the quote above, you call Christ the abomination but in your next quote you say the abomination is the "total rejection of the eternal Godhead."

Which is it?

(BTW, you do realize that the word abomination in the OT represented both sin in general and idolatry in particular, don't you? I'd be careful about calling Christ an abomination.)

Genesis 3:6-7

What do I win? :D


Kid'o, you are way to far into posting DENSE quotes at best for me to wast my time with your [POSTINGS]! You say I posted what above?? The red I hightlighted of your remark. 2 Cor. 4:2 :screwloose

--Elijah
 
Again, Vengeance is not at all the same thing as Tribulation or Affliction. And, as that is the case, one has to determine what vengeance is being spoken of and what tribulation/affliction is being spoken of, as they are two different events.
OK, again I will disagree with your rhetoric. Matthew, Mark, & Luke , WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE SAME EVENT. The same EVENT Jesus was & Paul was.

"Vengeance is not the same as Tribulation or Affliction" you said. If one was to be accepted into a college in another state or miles away, for example, we could say they weren't going to be living at home. Is one equal to the other in wording? No.
But in EVENT or occasion - the student will be going away to college IS the same as they would be living in another town.

That is why you're not getting the point of the 3 being equal.

Vengeance IS the same as "Punishment" according to the NIV. And what did Jesus say to whom about WHY they would be punished? Because they killed the prophets of the Lord & all the righteous blood from Abel to Zech. they were going to be held accountable for.
Are you with me so far?

OK, and it is the same as "Tribulation" & or affliction! How do I know that?

Paul says the same EVENT will happen in his epistles, the wording is different, but the event & story is the same. The apostles were all on the same page!

How is tribulation or affliction used by Paul to describe to those Judaizers, the thorn in his flesh? Here is a revelation for you- Read it carefully to understand what Paul is referring to:

2Thes.1:3-10 NKJV,
God’s Final Judgment and Glory


3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
Footnotes:
  1. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 NU-Text and M-Text read have believed.

Did you see that? Paul is speaking about the SAME EVENT as the other apostles & disciples.
 
OK, again I will disagree with your rhetoric. Matthew, Mark, & Luke , WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE SAME EVENT. The same EVENT Jesus was & Paul was.

"Vengeance is not the same as Tribulation or Affliction" you said. If one was to be accepted into a college in another state or miles away, for example, we could say they weren't going to be living at home. Is one equal to the other in wording? No.
But in EVENT or occasion - the student will be going away to college IS the same as they would be living in another town.

That is why you're not getting the point of the 3 being equal.

Vengeance IS the same as "Punishment" according to the NIV. And what did Jesus say to whom about WHY they would be punished? Because they killed the prophets of the Lord & all the righteous blood from Abel to Zech. they were going to be held accountable for.
Are you with me so far?

OK, and it is the same as "Tribulation" & or affliction! How do I know that?

Paul says the same EVENT will happen in his epistles, the wording is different, but the event & story is the same. The apostles were all on the same page!

How is tribulation or affliction used by Paul to describe to those Judaizers, the thorn in his flesh? Here is a revelation for you- Read it carefully to understand what Paul is referring to:

2Thes.1:3-10 NKJV,
God’s Final Judgment and Glory


3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
Footnotes:
  1. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 NU-Text and M-Text read have believed.

Did you see that? Paul is speaking about the SAME EVENT as the other apostles & disciples.

Vengeance is what was taken upon natural Jerusalem for what it did to Jesus.

Tribulation/affliction is what is to happened to the saints as in, "and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High." (Dan 7:24-25)

Wear out - Chaldee, belâ', meaning (used only in a mental sense); to afflict: - wear out. Different from vengeance which means punishment in retaliation for an injury or offense.

With respect to the Lord's discourse recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 one needs to set forth all the questions that are asked, and then by comparison determine what answer goes with what question.
 
Vengeance is what was taken upon natural Jerusalem for what it did to Jesus.

Tribulation/affliction is what is to happened to the saints as in, "and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High." (Dan 7:24-25)

Wear out - Chaldee, belâ', meaning (used only in a mental sense); to afflict: - wear out. Different from vengeance which means punishment in retaliation for an injury or offense.

With respect to the Lord's discourse recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 one needs to set forth all the questions that are asked, and then by comparison determine what answer goes with what question.

You ALMOST got it. But look again what Paul in 2Thess.1 is saying.

The saints of course would have tribulation...Jesus said "in this world you will have tribulation......." and the apostle Jon in Rev.1 said he was a brother in the tribulation & patience of Christ's kingdom.

But look at the WORD that Paul uses to describe the "VENGEANCE" which God would REPAY the unbelieving Jews with. It is God who repaid with vengeance, isn't it? "Vengeance is Mine.?" Right?

Read it again. Tribulation is how God would take vengeance on those who persecuted & caused trouble for the saints!

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

See, Vengeance comes from the Judge. On who?

Not the saints that "believed the testimony."
 
Just finished a little "light reading" in Josephus. Make of this what y'all will. :thumbsup

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again.

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before.

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

4. Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

The Works of Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews 6:5:3-4​
 
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And a little more "light reading" from Josephus, eyewitness to the siege of Jerusalem:
Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly.

4. Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places*, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with.

There were also found slain there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay on heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful.

Many also of those that had been put in prison by the tyrants were now brought out; for they did not leave off their barbarous cruelty at the very last: yet did God avenge himself upon them both, in a manner agreeable to justice.

The Works of Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews 6:9:3-4

What Josephus is recounting here is that during Jerusalem's last Passover, pilgrims from all over Judea, Syria, and Ethiopia (among others) were allowed to enter the city to celebrate the Passover, but were then not allowed to leave it, putting such pressure on the food supplies that many starved before they ever saw Jerusalem's walls breached. This "thlipsis" (literally "pressure") was part of God's vengeance.

Josephus recounts a horrific story of the effect of the famine on one such pilgrim:

There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time.

What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose.

This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she east at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with any thing but with her passion and the necessity she was in.

She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other.

Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed.

The Works of Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 6:3:4
Remember Christ's words when reading this:
"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; Luke 21:23 (NASB)

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:19-21 (NASB)
Take it for as much as you paid for it. :thumbsup
 
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That being the case care should be exercised in the dismissing of what one single word can do, with respect to what is being communicated.
But not at the expense of context, which your view completely ignores.

Vengeance is what was taken upon natural Jerusalem for what it did to Jesus.

Tribulation/affliction is what is to happened to the saints as in, "and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High." (Dan 7:24-25)
"Saints" in the OT doesn't mean "Christians." It means "holy ones." In OT parlance, this would be the Jews. Matthew 24 has nothing at all to do with the church of Christ in either the 1st century or the 21st century. In fact, Christ was telling His disciples to stay away from Jerusalem, and told them the signs to look for when it was time for them to leave! He was specifically telling them to AVOID the trouble coming on Jerusalem!

Finally, the word "thlipsis" literally means "pressure." Think of vengeance as the end and pressure as a means to achieve it. They are not mutually exclusive terms, especially when seen in context.
 
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You say I posted what above??
Here's our exchange:

Me:Taking your view literally, what is the abomination (the "hated thing") which causes "ruin?" Is it Christ? Is it the Jews? What is the abomination in your view of these passages?
You: (my above highlites) Of course it is Christ! (Eccl. 3:15) He is & was the hated Christ! Was He not executed in the midst of the week by His own? And by doing this, satan took over Christ's ex/Virgin House! They documented their Isa. 5:3 choice of 'house' over & above Christ!

And if you can ever (1 Peter 1:8-12's angels even!) [in Eternal History] find another Abomination of total rejection of the Eternal Godhead, let me know! Dan. 9:27 has it defined to an exact Prophecy! And the 70 weeks marks the time to the 34 AD total rejection of the Jews as a favored nation. (Not 70 AD!)

--Elijah
Me: In the context of the Olivet Discourse, the Romans are the bad guys. But I noticed a slight change in your response. In the quote above, you call Christ the abomination but in your next quote you say the abomination is the "total rejection of the eternal Godhead."

Which is it?

(BTW, you do realize that the word abomination in the OT represented both sin in general and idolatry in particular, don't you? I'd be careful about calling Christ an abomination.)
Understand now? When asked if you thought the "abomination" [of desolation] was Christ, you responded: "Of course it is Christ!"

For the record, Christ is not an abomination. ("Abomination" literally means that which is hated or despised. Used in the OT, it refers to sin. Used in the context of Matthew 24, it refers to Rome's legions.)

BTW, you still haven't told me what I win for providing another instance (Genesis 3:6-7) of the
Abomination of total rejection of the Eternal Godhead. C'mon! At least a "Winner, winner chicken dinner!" would do! :pray

Hope that clears up any misunderstanding.
 
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Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"


This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.


The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist

satan will destroy through peace...
.

Daniel 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

This is why Paul would say,

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape


And for those who think the temple was destroyed in 70 AD,it was,but not completly...

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."


Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.

Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
 
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Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Here's what early church historian Eusebius wrote on the matter:
Chapter VII

The Predictions of Christ.​
To these accounts it may be proper to add the sure prediction of our Saviour, in which he foretold these very events as follows: "But woe to them that are with child and those that give suck in those days; but pray that your flight be not in the winter, nor on the Sabbath. But there shall be then great distress, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither may be."

The historian, adding up the whole number of those slain, says, that eleven hundred thousand perished by famine and the sword, and that the rest, the factious and robbers, mutually informing against each other after the capture, were put to death.

All this occurred in this manner, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, according to the predictions of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by his divine power foresaw all these things as if already present at the time, who wept and mourned indeed, at the prospect, as the holy evangelists show in their writings.

These give us the very words that he uttered, when he said to this same Jerusalem, "If thou didst know, even thou, in this thy day the things that belong to thy peace, but now they are hidden from thy eyes, for the days will come upon thee, and thy enemies shall cast a trench around thee, and shall encompass thee around, and shall every where shut thee in, and they shall level thee and thy children with the ground."

Afterwards he speaks as if of the people—"For there shall be great distress upon earth, and wrath upon this people, and they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and they shall be carried away captive to all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations, until the times of the nations shall be fulfilled;"

And again, "When ye shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that her desolation has drawn near."

Eusebius Pamphilus, The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 92.

The "abomination of desolation" of Matthew 24 is explained in Luke 21:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. {21} "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; {22}because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

And the "abomination of desolation" referenced in Matthew came from this in Daniel:

{29} "At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before. {30} "For ships of Kittim [Cyprus] will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. {31} "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation. Daniel 11:29-31 (NASB)

The combined Macedonian and Syrian armies of Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled this very passage, beginning in 167 BC.

Josephus explains:
King Antiochus returning out of Egypt for fear of the Romans, made an expedition against the city Jerusalem; and when he was there, in the hundred and forty-third year of the kingdom of the Seleucidse, he took the city without fighting, those of his own party opening the gates to him. And when he had gotten possession of Jerusalem, he slew many of the opposite party; and when he had plundered it of a great deal of money, he returned to Antioch.

4. Now it came to pass, after two years, in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of that month which is by us called Chasleu, and by the Macedonians Apelleus, in the hundred and fifty-third olympiad, that the king came up to Jerusalem, and, pretending peace, he got possession of the city by treachery; at which time he spared not so much as those that admitted him into it, on account of the riches that lay in the temple... and by this means cast the Jews into great lamentation, for he forbade them to offer those daily sacrifices which they used to offer to God, according to the law.

And when he had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand. He also burnt down the finest buildings; and when he had overthrown the city walls, he built a citadel in the lower part of the city, for the place was high, and overlooked the temple; on which account he fortified it with high walls and towers, and put into it a garrison of Macedonians.

And when the king had built an idol altar upon God's altar, he slew swine upon it, and so offered a sacrifice neither according to the law, nor the Jewish religious worship in that country. He also compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God, and to adore those whom he took to be gods; and made them build temples, and raise idol altars in every city and village, and offer swine upon them every day. He also commanded them not to circumcise their sons, and threatened to punish any that should be found to have transgressed his injunction.

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 368.

In short, Matthew's reference to "abomination of desolation" explained in Luke as "armies that surround Jerusalem", is based on the destruction of Jerusalem caused by Antiochus IV Epiphanes: the "little horn" of Daniel 8.

But don't take my word for it. This information can be found all over the web. Start here:

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peace. Out.

(History is so much more fascinating than fiction, especially when history shows Biblical prophecy to be as accurate as this.)
 
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Newton wrote an great commentary on this. When I find it again, I will post it.

Look forward to it. In the meantime, here is a screen capture from Google Books of a book written by Isaac Watts called "A Short View of the Whole Scripture History."


noteonAntiochus-1.png


When even pagan critics assert that the prophecy was fulfilled so accurately that it couldn't possibly have been written before the events foretold, then people today need to rethink the traditional evangelical view of some of these prophecies, especially in Daniel.

FWIW. :thumbsup
 
Look forward to it. In the meantime, here is a screen capture from Google Books of a book written by Isaac Watts called "A Short View of the Whole Scripture History."


noteonAntiochus-1.png


When even pagan critics assert that the prophecy was fulfilled so accurately that it couldn't possibly have been written before the events foretold, then people today need to rethink the traditional evangelical view of some of these prophecies, especially in Daniel.

FWIW. :thumbsup

i am a futurist but not a pre-tribber rather a mid trib but i generally see daniel as being fulfilled, thought the concepts are again found in revalation.
 
i am a futurist but not a pre-tribber rather a mid trib but i generally see daniel as being fulfilled, thought the concepts are again found in revalation.

Hey Jason...

If you haven't looked at this thread, please check it out. I believe I've made a strong case in it that there is not one seven-year "The Great Tribulation" that leads to rapture, but two tribulations (one for believers, the other for Jerusalem), neither of which is seven years long. :thumbsup

But that's not the topic of this thread, so I'll scurry back to topic before someone hits me with a nerf bat. :shocked!
 
Hey Jason...

If you haven't looked at this thread, please check it out. I believe I've made a strong case in it that there is not one seven-year "The Great Tribulation" that leads to rapture, but two tribulations (one for believers, the other for Jerusalem), neither of which is seven years long. :thumbsup

But that's not the topic of this thread, so I'll scurry back to topic before someone hits me with a nerf bat. :shocked!
i believe that my dakes commentary mentions that. in due time.
 
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Look forward to it. ...
Yet shall he confirm the covenant with many for one week. He kept it, notwithstanding his death, till the rejection of the Jews, and calling of Cornelius and the Gentiles in the seventh year after his passion.

And in half a week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease; that is, by the war of the Romans upon the Jews: which war, after some commotions, began in the 13th year of Nero, A. D. 67, in the spring, when Vespasian, with an army invaded them; and ended in the second year of Vespasian, A. D. 70, in autumn, Sept. 7, when Titus took the city, having burnt the Temple 27 days before: so that it lasted three years and an half.

And upon a wing of abominations he shall cause desolation, even until the consummation, and that which is determined be poured upon the desolate. The Prophets, in representing kingdoms by Beasts and Birds, put their wings stretcht out over any country for their armies sent out to invade and rule over that country. Hence a wing of abominations is an army of false Gods: for an abomination is often put in scripture for a false God; as where Chemosh is called the abomination of Moab {1 Kings 11.}, and Molech the abomination of Ammon.

The meaning therefore is, that the people of a Prince to come shall destroy the sanctuary, and abolish the daily worship of the true God, and overspread the land with an army of false gods; and by setting up their dominion and worship, cause desolation to the Jews, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. For Christ tells us, that the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was to be set up in the times of the Roman Empire, Matth. 24:15.
Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Isaac Newton - Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John
 
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