The abomination of desolation

[Shilohsfoal]

When the abomination of desolation is placed in the land of Judea,how will you recognise it?

 

[Vic C.]

You pretty much know my beliefs already. I believe all three major interpretations may be correct.

First = Antiochus Epiphanes.

Second = Rome and 70 AD

Third, in the future. This one I firmly believe won't have anything to do with a physical Temple or the building of one. There is ample Biblical proof that we, the ekklesia, are the Temple of God.

The Scriptures most often cited are:

Daniel 9:27
Daniel 11:31
Daniel 12:11
Matt 24:15
Mark 13:1

Through conjecture we often attribute other passages, but are they valid and do they harmonize? What part, if any, does history play in understanding this abomination? I often see people put down for using sources outside the Bible. Are we missing part of the picture by dismissing outside sources?

Now I know there are varying understandings and interpretations of the The Abomination of Desolation, so lets discuss this as civil and mature as possible.

Thanks.

 

[samuel]

There are so many opinions on the abomination of desolation, just take your pick. I have found no scriptural evidence that confirms a rebuilt temple, other than the melinial temple.

But given chance the people of Israel would rebuild one, at least the temple faithful would. But I have also thought that a rebuilt temple, could be the abomination of desolation spoken of. And there is some scriptural evidence, to back that thought up.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You pretty much know my beliefs already. I believe all three major interpretations may be correct.

First = Antiochus Epiphanes.

Second = Rome and 70 AD

Third, in the future. This one I firmly believe won't have anything to do with a physical Temple or the building of one. There is ample Biblical proof that we, the ekklesia, are the Temple of God.

The Scriptures most often cited are:

Daniel 9:27
Daniel 11:31
Daniel 12:11
Matt 24:15
Mark 13:1

Through conjecture we often attribute other passages, but are they valid and do they harmonize? What part, if any, does history play in understanding this abomination? I often see people put down for using sources outside the Bible. Are we missing part of the picture by dismissing outside sources?

Now I know there are varying understandings and interpretations of the The Abomination of Desolation, so lets discuss this as civil and mature as possible.

Thanks.

I believe most people are missing part of the picture by dismissing the bible itself.
How likely do you believe it would be for the jews in Judea,to understand something happening to them if they were taught the event had already been forfilled thousands of years ago?How likely would any watch the events taking place in the 30 verses in Daniel 11 that take place before the abomination is placed?
How likely would a christian follow the verses leading up to the abomination if thier teachers teach them all of those events took place thousands of years ago?

 

[Vic C.]

May I ask why do you misquote or misrepresent what I have posted? Just asking.

I believe most people are missing part of the picture by dismissing the bible itself.

Nowhere do I say to dismiss the Bible. I say the Bible and history combined give us good hindsight which enables us to see prophetic events that have unfolded in our past.

Listen, you have the water and I have the teabag and someone else has the ice. Put them together and we have iced tea. ;)

How likely do you believe it would be for the jews in Judea,to understand something happening to them if they were taught the event had already been forfilled thousands of years ago?

I don't get what you're saying here. Everything that was written to them was written to them before it took place. Daniel wrote of one abomination before it happened in aprox. 167 BC. Jesus told them of another abomination in Daniel that was in their future (70 AD).

How likely would a christian follow the verses leading up to the abomination if thier teachers teach them all of those events took place thousands of years ago?

Again, you are dismissing the belief that I have about some of these events happening again in the future. I've said that a couple of time already that I believe some prophecy to be both near/far, two or threefold.

As I said, there may be a future abomination, but it won't take place in a physical Temple.

Believe me, I know how tough it is for today's Christian to see the historical side of scripture. Futurism has really taken a hold. But it was for centuries that much of prophecy was considered "history prewritten" for us. Considering it was a Jesuit that first proposed the futuristic view to counter the growing reformation and it's historical teachings that pointed to Rome and the RCC, I'd hate to chalk one up for the RCC side. :help

The interesting thing is, the RCC doesn't even teach what the Jesuit came up with. We took it hook, line and sinker.

 

[AnnieHere]

The interesting thing is, the RCC doesn't even teach what the Jesuit came up with. We took it hook, line and sinker.

It's important to understand that the Jesuits and the RCC will not necessarily agree on everything in the public arena.

The purpose for this is to create an illusion of separation between the two...bad versus good.
The Jesuits, known for their political intrigue and documented evil conspiracies; as opposed to the false reputation of "purity' to religious truth, doctrine, and infallibility of papal authority that the RCC wishes to falsely maintain. "Black vs. White".

The whole "rapture before the 7-year tribulation" theory is a lie. Yet it is preached in in the majority of the churches and TV "ministries" today. So, overall, the Jesuits have accomplished their goal of taking the attention off of the Reformation and placing it on a contrived false expectation.

"At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible's antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain, took on the challenge. Like Martin Luther, Ribera read the prophecies about the Antichrist, the little horn, the man of sin, and the beast. But he came to different conclusions than Luther did. He decided that the prophecies applied, not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to one diabolical figure at the end of time. This viewpoint quickly became the official Roman Catholic position on the Antichrist."

http://www.geocities.com/biblerevelatio ... turism.htm
http://www.reformation.org/left-behind-by-jesuits.html

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Several on this board say there have been more than one abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel but Daniel only spoke of one abomination of desolation.
And that abomination is the abomination Jesus said would take place before his coming.
Daniel also said the abomination would take place just before the time of the end.Did the time of the end come and go and the world missed it?

Mat 24;15-16
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the holy place(whoso readeth let him understand).

Something keeps telling me alot of people are not going to understand.

 

[Vic C.]

Something keeps telling me alot of people are not going to understand.

I know. I have the same feeling about the historical view. Shilohsfoal, my intentions are not meant to cause strife between us or any other member. I'm don't disagree for the sake of disagreement, at least when it comes to discussing eschatology. I used to believe pre trib, then embraced Pre wrath (which for me, still holds some truth). But when coming across Newton, the Reformers and the history of the Jesuits and their push of futurism, it was hard for me dismiss these findings.

Now I don't pretend to be an expert on all things historical and find it difficult to put my beliefs into words because I haven't delved that deep into it yet. So hopefully this (below) will be read and maybe it will explain why some of us believe in dual or tri fulfillment of some aspects of prophecy.

http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn38/abomination.htm

 

[AnnieHere]

Something keeps telling me alot of people are not going to understand.

Yes, it is happening now, but most have totally misunderstood it.

Satan is now ruling in the churches; the local congregations.

And...His elect are called to come out:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you"

-2 Corinthians 6:14-17

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand, Then let them which be in Judaea [the local churches] flee into the mountains:[to Christ]
Matthew 24:15,16

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God [the local churches]: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (All the churches preach a do-it-yourself salvation program, OR- some truth, mixed with lies).
-Galatians 1:8-9

In Daniel 11:31 the Bible is prophesying concerning a time when the sanctuary of strength would be polluted, and the daily would be taken away, replaced by the abomination of desolation. We know that the sanctuary of strength must be where God is worshiped. It is here that the daily sacrifices and the daily candlesticks are being utilized in service to God. The only place that can be in view is the temple. But according to this verse at some future date the worship of God would be replaced by the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15 instructs us that this dreadful event must identify with the Great Tribulation that comes just before the end of the world.

But why does the Bible tell us to look at the Book of Daniel concerning the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place? Because the holy place must be the same entity as the sanctuary of strength where the daily sacrifices and daily lamp stands were burning. Thus, we can know that the holy place is the temple because that is where the true believers are ordinarily found. That is where the Holy Spirit is present.

Near the end of time, (which is now) the temple that God speaks of is the corporate external body of believers as they are found in churches and congregations. While the churches do not offer daily sacrifices, they should have a daily or continual candlestick giving the light of the Gospel to the world. They, without question, are the only holy place that can be in view. It is the local churches that have been given the Bible together with the commission to send the Gospel into the whole world. But from Daniel 11:31, we know that the daily will be taken away when the abomination of desolation is set up. This information agrees with the fact that during the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit will no longer be in the midst. That is, the candlestick will be removed form the churches and congregations.

Moreover, Satan will be (is) reigning in the churches. He is the very essence of desolation.

 

[Vic C.]

... While the churches do not offer daily sacrifices, they should have a daily or continual candlestick giving the light of the Gospel to the world....

Actually, we do offer up a daily sacrifice to God; ourselves!

1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

I also agree we should not fellowship with devils, but we are called to fellowship with other members of the ekklesia nonetheless. The issue is not with all congregations because not all congregations are created equally. Some are good and some are so out there.

No one, whether they are in or claim to be called out of a church assembly, holds 100% virgin doctrine. Even those who claim to be "called out" disagree on many doctrines. There is almost as much division outside the organized assemblies as there is within.

Sometimes I believe the term "called out" is misunderstood or misrepresented. Some people are disenchanted with congregations due to expectations or lack of. Lets face it, the moment we join a church that we believe is perfect, it becomes imperfect because we are imperfect. If Paul says he's the chief of sinners, where does that leave us?

The final abomination will be the one where the heart of those who claim to be believers are completely desolate of the Holy Spirit of God. They will be both inside and outside the "churches". Peter said that "God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34-35)

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I havnt come out and said this before and I may not say it again.But I want everyone to consider Daniel chapter 11 as being about the time of the end and the things in revelation.The beast,the false prophet,Babylon the great,the mark of the beast.
And 144,000 holy people who would take up a cross and bear it before thier own kinsmen.Following in Jesus's footsteps being persecuted for thier testimony being hated by all the nations that have gatherd there.
Its all right there in Daniel 11.It truly is speaking of the time of the end.
The law,prophets and the gospel speaking dirrectly to those 144,000.When Jesus says "this generation" in the gospel,they are the ones who hear him because they see that generation before thier faces.

There was a time when I wanted to lay down my life for the Lord.I desperatly wanted to do something profound.But when I realized the world didnt revolve around myself,the Lord showed me who it was that would be beheaded for thier witness and who is was that would sit on thrones.I was very happy to have learned that and was very happy after learning what they would go through that thier reward was awaiting them. :yes

 

[AnnieHere]

God is calling true believers out of the churches because Satan is ruling there through his 'ministers of righteousness'. He is sitting in the holy place...the temple...where the people gather to worship.

"For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." 2Cor.11:13-15

Because of their disobedience to God's Word, He has given them a strong delusion, they don't see the danger. They don't realize, and can't perceive the seriousness of this situation. Only the true believers who are watching, who are on guard, will realize the true state of affairs that exists in the churches and will depart out of the churches, even as Christ has commanded.

We are very close to the end now, and those that identify with the name of "Christian", and remain in the churches are being deceived.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

-2Thessalonins 2:3-14

 

[MISFIT]

Don't you mean the Obamanation that causes desolation?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Interesting topic though sorry I really have nothing to add.

 

[Vic C.]

Don't you mean the Obamanation that causes desolation?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Interesting topic though sorry I really have nothing to add.

Very prophetic. :biglaugh

 

[AnnieHere]

Don't you mean the Obamanation that causes desolation?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Interesting topic though sorry I really have nothing to add.

Very prophetic. :biglaugh

 

[Sinthesis]

Don't you mean the Obamanation that causes desolation?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Interesting topic though sorry I really have nothing to add.

Very prophetic. :biglaugh

We've gone so off-topic you're worried about Obama flashing Spiderman signs?

 

[Vic C.]

Spiderman signs? That's no spiderman sign, that's the "Sign of the horns". If the many people who flash it only knew what it means. 2

 

[LanceEh]

To the original poster, the abomination of desolations will stand in the temple according to the Bible.

Take care.

 

[LanceEh]

We've gone so off-topic you're worried about Obama flashing Spiderman signs?

Isn't that supposed to be the Illuminati sign? (or whatever it's called?)

Take care.

 

[LanceEh]

There are so many opinions on the abomination of desolation, just take your pick. I have found no scriptural evidence that confirms a rebuilt temple, other than the melinial temple.

But given chance the people of Israel would rebuild one, at least the temple faithful would. But I have also thought that a rebuilt temple, could be the abomination of desolation spoken of. And there is some scriptural evidence, to back that thought up.

Well the Bible says that the Abomination will stand in the "holy place". Until you can tell me what other place besides the temple would have been understood to the Jews as the "holy place" the only thing I can go on is the temple, but who knows. Just my thoughts

By the way, they are ready to build another Temple, so it's not farfetched. They just need the land. (opens the door to a treaty by the anti-christ maybe?)

God bless.