The absence of the Trinity in early manuscripts of 1 John 5:7

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JLB said:
Do you believe Jesus as God, created all things?

The heavens and the earth?


JLB
Click to expand...
I believe the Father created all things through Jesus. That is all that was created according to the Fathers will and at His command He created through Jesus.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
 
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JLB said:
Ok. So let’s just use scripture to see if the concept of Godhead, or Trinity is a biblical concept or not.


I believe we all agree that God the Father is God.

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of
God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11


So the next question is.... Is Jesus Christ God?


I will wait for your reply before I continue.





JLB
Click to expand...
I believe Jesus is all that the Father is. So in that context "Yes"

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
 
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Randy said:
I believe the Father created all things through Jesus. That is all that was created according to the Fathers will and at His command He created through Jesus.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Click to expand...

Jesus created, that is to say, He expressed the Father’s will in creation by speaking as the Word.

The Word Jesus spoke came into being, was manifested by the power of the Holy Spirit.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

The Son laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. This was accomplished according to the will of the Father, nevertheless it was the work of the Son.


Since this is a quote from Zechariah, let’s look at it.



The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:...“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10


So we see this is YHWH the Lord speaking through Zechariah, prophesying about His sufferings to come on the cross.


Jesus is Lord; YHWH the Lord God.



JLB
 
Last edited:
Randy said:
I believe Jesus is all that the Father is. So in that context "Yes"

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Click to expand...

Amen.
 
JLB said:
Jesus created, that is to say, He expressed the Father’s will in creation by speaking as the Word.

The Word Jesus spoke came into being, was manifested by the power of the Holy Spirit.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

The Son laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. This was accomplished according to the will of the Father, nevertheless it was the work of the Son.


Since this is a quote from Zechariah, let’s look at it.



The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:...“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10


So we see this is YHWH the Lord speaking through Zechariah, prophesying about His sufferings to come on the cross.


Jesus is Lord; YHWH the Lord God.



JLB
Click to expand...
The writer of Hebrews stated God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. And in the past God spoke to us by the prophets. Clearly God here is the Father as Jesus is His Son.

Now Jesus stated this which is cohesive with the writer of Hebrews.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

Jesus is the word of the Father.

I believe the Father is living in Jesus That they are one in that manner. So they pierced Him and looked on Jesus whom they pierced.

I believe the one on the throne in heaven is the Father.

Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

The Father spoke to us in these last days by the Son. Just as the Father created all thing through His Son.

Jesus inherited all things from the Father and received all authority from the Father. Has the Father, the one Jesus calls His God and our God, received from any other being?
 
Randy said:
The writer of Hebrews stated God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. And in the past God spoke to us by the prophets. Clearly God here is the Father as Jesus is His Son.
Click to expand...

Of course Hebrews contrasts the Son from the Father.

Nevertheless it’s the Son who stretches out the heavens sand lays the foundation of the earth, as YHWH.


As I gave you the scripture from Zechariah showing it was the Son, as YHWH speaking through the prophet.


Peter says it this way —


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11




JLB
 
JLB said:
Of course Hebrews contrasts the Son from the Father.

Nevertheless it’s the Son who stretches out the heavens sand lays the foundation of the earth, as YHWH.


As I gave you the scripture from Zechariah showing it was the Son, as YHWH speaking through the prophet.


Peter says it this way —


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11




JLB
Click to expand...
The Father through the Son.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father - eastern church - I agree
The Spirit is given through the Son.
JLB said:
Of course Hebrews contrasts the Son from the Father.

Nevertheless it’s the Son who stretches out the heavens sand lays the foundation of the earth, as YHWH.


As I gave you the scripture from Zechariah showing it was the Son, as YHWH speaking through the prophet.


Peter says it this way —


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11




JLB
Click to expand...
Fathers promise. In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"
The Spirit Jesus sends in "His name" He received from the Father. (Acts 2)
Eastern orthodox church to this day states the Spirit proceeds from the Father. I agree but add is sent through/by the Son. In other words not apart from Jesus.

Again as in ALL things from the Father through the Son.

Jesus-“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.
That Spirit is sent in Jesus's name and represents the presence of Christ in a believer. Christ in us.

Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as another. The Father does not.

The spirit speaks only what He hears. From the mind and will of the Father as its His Spirit. The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord. From the mind and will of Christ Jesus as He and the Father are one and all things and all authority have been gifted to Jesus by the Father. Jesus has spoken to me by the spirit in answer to prayer.
 
Randy said:
The Father through the Son.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father - eastern church - I agree
The Spirit is given through the Son.
Click to expand...

The Son created the heavens and earth, according to the will of the Father.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10




JLB
 
Randy said:
Fathers promise. In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"
The Spirit Jesus sends in "His name" He received from the Father. (Acts 2)
Eastern orthodox church to this day states the Spirit proceeds from the Father. I agree but add is sent through/by the Son. In other words not apart from Jesus.

Again as in ALL things from the Father through the Son.

Jesus-“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.
That Spirit is sent in Jesus's name and represents the presence of Christ in a believer. Christ in us.

Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as another. The Father does not.

The spirit speaks only what He hears. From the mind and will of the Father as its His Spirit. The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord. From the mind and will of Christ Jesus as He and the Father are one and all things and all authority have been gifted to Jesus by the Father. Jesus has spoken to me by the spirit in answer to prayer.
Click to expand...

I don’t see how this addresses my point that Jesus is YHWH the Lord God.

The work of created the heavens and the earth are ascribed to the Son.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


It is the Son speaking through Zechariah as YHWH the Lord God.





JLB
 
JLB said:
I don’t see how this addresses my point that Jesus is YHWH the Lord God.

The work of created the heavens and the earth are ascribed to the Son.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


It is the Son speaking through Zechariah as YHWH the Lord God.





JLB
Click to expand...
The Father made the creation through Jesus and it was made by His power and will. "let us make man in our image.."

Jesus is the firstborn of all things created. (All creation)
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. -Gifted and from the will of another. And the only
other at that point in time was the Father.

And the one gifting is defining "Jesus's" being.

The Father is "Jesus's God.

Jesus has always been the Son. Gods firstborn and the first of all things. Before all things except His God the Father.

Jesus's spirit was formed as the first of Gods works. The fullness was not formed but gifted. In that gifting Jesus is all that the Father is and one with the Father. The wisdom and power of the Father.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made. - I agree in part.
 
Randy said:
The Father made the creation through Jesus and it was made by His power and will. "let us make man in our image.."

Jesus is the firstborn of all things created. (All creation)
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. -Gifted and from the will of another. And the only
other at that point in time was the Father.

And the one gifting is defining "Jesus's" being.

The Father is "Jesus's God.

Jesus has always been the Son. Gods firstborn and the first of all things. Before all things except His God the Father.

Jesus's spirit was formed as the first of Gods works. The fullness was not formed but gifted. In that gifting Jesus is all that the Father is and one with the Father. The wisdom and power of the Father.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made. - I agree in part.
Click to expand...

Yes Jesus is God. As to your statement that God never dies. That’s correct. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. It was the Son of man who died upon the cross. That’s why one needs to truly grasp the Hypostatic Union of Christ.

Now, begotten of the Father is not the same as giving birth. As Genesis 5:4 says And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: The Christ was not created, or birthed, by the Father, but proceeded from the Father. Yet, He has always been with the Father, as they are co-equal, co-eternal.

If Jesus is not God, then He is a created being, as only God is eternal.
 
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,[Titus 2:13]

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:[2 Peter 2:1]

Here are two places where Paul and Peter both call Jesus God and Savior. This while writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Randy said:
The Father made the creation through Jesus and it was made by His power and will. "let us make man in our image.."

Jesus is the firstborn of all things created. (All creation)
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. -Gifted and from the will of another. And the only
other at that point in time was the Father.

And the one gifting is defining "Jesus's" being.

The Father is "Jesus's God.

Jesus has always been the Son. Gods firstborn and the first of all things. Before all things except His God the Father.

Jesus's spirit was formed as the first of Gods works. The fullness was not formed but gifted. In that gifting Jesus is all that the Father is and one with the Father. The wisdom and power of the Father.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made. - I agree in part.
Click to expand...

None of this actually addresses my post.


I don’t see how this addresses my point that Jesus is YHWH the Lord God.

The work of created the heavens and the earth are ascribed to the Son.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


It is the Son speaking through Zechariah as YHWH the Lord God.

It is YHWH the Lord God of the Old Testament that is returning with the saints for the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

This is Jesus Christ the Lord: The Son of God, YHWH.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


Do you believe it is the Father Who is coming on the Day of the Lord to raise the dead in Christ, or the Son?


JLB
 
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JLB said:
None of this actually addresses my post.


I don’t see how this addresses my point that Jesus is YHWH the Lord God.

The work of created the heavens and the earth are ascribed to the Son.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


It is the Son speaking through Zechariah as YHWH the Lord God.

It is YHWH the Lord God of the Old Testament that is returning with the saints for the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

This is Jesus Christ the Lord: The Son of God, YHWH.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


Do you believe it is the Father Who is coming on the Day of the Lord to raise the dead in Christ, or the Son?


JLB
Click to expand...
I'll end the discussion then.
 
JLB said:
None of this actually addresses my post.


I don’t see how this addresses my point that Jesus is YHWH the Lord God.

The work of created the heavens and the earth are ascribed to the Son.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


It is the Son speaking through Zechariah as YHWH the Lord God.

It is YHWH the Lord God of the Old Testament that is returning with the saints for the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

This is Jesus Christ the Lord: The Son of God, YHWH.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


Do you believe it is the Father Who is coming on the Day of the Lord to raise the dead in Christ, or the Son?


JLB
Click to expand...
What little I can gather from Randy, he seems to be an Arianist. Am I correct?
 
SovereignGrace said:
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,[Titus 2:13]

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:[2 Peter 2:1]

Here are two places where Paul and Peter both call Jesus God and Savior. This while writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
I suggest you look at all translations. Jesus is the radiance of Gods glory.

Here is the head of the body of Christ.
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
 
Randy said:
I suggest you look at all translations. Jesus is the radiance of Gods glory.

Here is the head of the body of Christ.
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
Click to expand...
If Jesus is not God, then He is a created being, as only God is eternal. Are you able to accept this my friend? That’s what you view of Jesus leads to believe, Jesus is a created being.
 
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