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The absolute Sovereignty of God !

beloved57 said:
  1. This is descriptive of the True God, not the god of arminism, pateism, freewillism which all tend to glorify the will of men, the creature, over and above the Will of God !
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Hi Bill, That is what you get for studying all of the Bible....The Truth. I find it strange that many who claim to be Christians are waiting for a falling away of the Church using the Scripture text of (2 Thess. 2: 3) as proof. But the falling away from Church Doctrine of Christ as taught by the Disciples started right away and has increased through the ages. Reaching a zenith at one time, starting at some date in the 1st century, and became world wide as a corrupt Church and then broke up in to many corrupt doctrines. each claiming their own self willed worship not known to Christ and His Disciples. And yet, many a so called Christians are waiting for a falling away of the Church when they are standing in the middle of a multitude of corrupt teachings. What they call a falling away is a taken away of the Church. And so many self willed false religions are so intent that they are right, that when the Church is called out, they will explain it away.
 
Jhn 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

In context, what is being communicated here is that nobody could be attracted to Jesus unless they suspect He is the Christ prophesied by God in the scriptures: and those that accept Jesus as Christ will be ultimately vindicated.:twocents
 
williamt said:
Speaking of Scripture.... got John 6:44 yet?
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Since you seem to like to play "dueling proof-texts" I already posted Jhn 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Last time I checked, "all" meant "all."
Proof-texting is the source of an astounding accumulation of meadow muffins since it takes a verse (as if verses stand alone) out of its context and uses it to make a point that the rest of scripture does not support.

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Jim Parker said:
Since you seem to like to play "dueling proof-texts" I already posted Jhn 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Last time I checked, "all" meant "all."
Proof-texting is the source of an astounding accumulation of meadow muffins since it takes a verse (as if verses stand alone) out of its context and uses it to make a point that the rest of scripture does not support.
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And equally unfortunate is when people use one proof text to eradicate another.

Harmony is NOT an easy gig. That being said, I agree with your assessment of all being all with the scripture in question. What happens from there with that fact remains subject to further questioning.

All churches that have called upon Christ have some scriptural truth. No uncertainty about that. What none of them/us have, individually or collectively is Perfect Sight.

The Divine Cadence Speaks Positive and Negative, simultaneously, neither side of which can be credibly eliminated. Believers have a predictable leaning to only the Positive Word, and an equally predictable leaning of outright denial on the Negative Word. We all "think" we take "all" of Gods Words, but the reality is we take the Positive half/aspect and spit out/toss out what we don't like, the Negative, or, even more predictably, we LAY the Negative Words on "other people." That's called hypocrisy.

God speaks with Mercy and Truth. Truth is, we have issues that require His Mercy. People read Mercy and Truth and they will see both ONLY as Positive, when the truth is, we have negative issues that Truth reveals. Nevertheless, when the Truth reveals the negative, it IS also positive, at least for those who believe.

John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Every believer will read the above, and outright DENY they have darkness or lack of comprehension. The 'reality' is the darkness, which we all factually have, "comprehended it NOT." And it remains that way.

Believers believe only the BLUE LIGHT special that Gods Words brings. They don't understand that the RED LIGHT special is where the real bargains of the Word are delivered.

Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

For those who stand under the RED LIGHT Words, they will receive this, from God in Christ:

Isaiah 45:3
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue. And a lying tongue, in darkness, will deny it has any death or darkness in it.

Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

James set this to record. And every believer will flat out DENY they have this issue:

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Every believer denies this is the case for themselves, while they stand, open mouthed, breathing out the fire of HELL, and venom to one another, at a minimum, as a possibility.

Bathed in damnation to other believers.

Yet, because of their/our/my darkness, they do not and can not "see it" or "comprehend it."

This is a Working of God, to show us the reality of "our own darkness."

John 3:
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Again, every reader, by the inclination of the lying tongue, the lying flesh, the internal darkness, the heart that is wicked, above "all things" no less, that will not and can not comprehend His Light, will not bring this to HIS LIGHT. In various "religious rituals" they sell the snake oil that if you DO THIS, then you have been forgiven of and have no more darkness. And such walk away with even MORE DARKNESS by that lie.

And IF they do, they will say, NOW, I am only Light. When nothing could be further from THE TRUTH.

Psalm 112:4
Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.

Studies in contrasts and oppositions. Gotta luv it.
 
williamt said:
Calvinistvs_Arminian.jpg
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Cute and insulting
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello williamt, dirtfarmer here

John 12:32 " And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
How would you harmonize this verse with the verse that you gave, John 6:44?
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Verses are not written in a vacuum.
You don't "harmonize" them. You look at ALL the scripture that has a bearing on the subject.
You don't just pick your favorite "proof text" out of its context and stop there.
Proof-texting is what people do who don't know how to interpret scripture.
 
beloved57 said:
It reads 1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
They suppose that Gods will here is subjected to the will of men,
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No it doesn't.
There is not a hint of a suggestion that anyone thinks God's will might be subjected to the will of men.

Apparently you have not considered that, since God is completely sovereign, He is able to make the sovereign decision to allow men to exercise their free will.

It seems that your thinking is along the lines of:
God is totally sovereign.
Total sovereignty requires that everything that happens and exists is God's will
Therefore it is God's will that there are murderers, rapists, birth defects, diseases, droughts, wars, criminals, drunkards, drug addicts, pedophiles, pornography, corrupt politicians, prostitutes, etc. etc. etc......

You are suggesting that God is not able to do anything He chooses because He is limited in his actions by His sovereignty.
He cannot allow anyone to make a choice that is contrary to His will.
That means God's choices are limited by a higher authority than God.
In you view, sovereignty is a higher authority than God and God must submit to it.

That's just one more way that Calvinism makes God out to be less than the God of Scripture.
 
Jim Parker said:
No it doesn't.
There is not a hint of a suggestion that anyone thinks God's will might be subjected to the will of men.

Apparently you have not considered that, since God is completely sovereign, He is able to make the sovereign decision to allow men to exercise their free will.
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Here is what our Divine Sovereign Maker "subjected" us to:

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

I can't imagine much more of a vain statement from that condition of fact, to claim that state as 'freewill.' That would be an opposite conclusion. And proof of said vanity.

van·i·ty
ˈvanədē/
noun
noun: vanity; plural noun: vanities
1. excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.
 
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