The absolute Sovereignty of God !

[beloved57]

One of the most obvious fallacies of all false religion is their faulty concept of God, the Great Sovereign Monarch of Heaven and Earth. This is very noticeable when religionist quote 1 Tim 2:4 in their erroneous defense of Christ died for all mankind without exception. It reads 1 Tim 2:4

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

They suppose that Gods will here is subjected to the will of men, and that some men whom God desires to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of truth, trump His desire, and their will and desire conflicts with Gods, and so ultimately they are lost, in spite of God desiring otherwise. This fallacious reasoning is nothing short of pure blasphemy and ultimate disrespect for the True God !

Job says of the God of scripture, of Heaven and Earth, writes this about His desire Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

So the most reasonable conclusion to 1 Tim 2:4 is this, the all men whom He desires to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, He does that for them , because all Salvation is of the Lord ! Now if some dont be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, its because they weren't part of the all men of 1 Tim 2:4 that God desired it for !

Here are some more scriptures that Highlight the Sovereign Will of God over men and their wills :

Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. The word pleases here is translated desire 9 times

Ps 135:5-7

5 For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.


6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.


7 He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.

Dan 4:34-37


34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:


35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.


37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


Notice in Vs 37, that those of us who walk in pride [which all by nature do in unbelief] He is able to debase ! Does this not prove that Gods will is Sovereign over the proud will of man ? The word abase means :

1. to be or bring low, humble, subdue
   
   It reminds me of Ps 110:3
   
   
   Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
   
   This is descriptive of the True God, not the god of arminism, pateism, freewillism which all tend to glorify the will of men, the creature, over and above the Will of God !

 

[Jim Parker]

This is very noticeable when religionist quote 1 Tim 2:4

Your name-calling (religionist) ads absolutely nothing to your argument.

erroneous defense of Christ died for all mankind without exception.

That is what the church taught from the beginning until the advent of the Calvinist heresies.

They suppose that Gods will here is subjected to the will of men, and that some men whom God desires to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of truth, trump His desire, and their will and desire conflicts with Gods, and so ultimately they are lost, in spite of God desiring otherwise.

That is what scripture says.
"Whoever believes" has eternal life. (John 3:16)
The heretical Calvinist teaching makes God out to be a monster who gives some people the grace to repent and withholds that grace from others and then proceeds to punish them with everlasting torment in the fires of hell for not doing what was impossible for them to do.
That's the monster godlett you espouse.

God is sovereign but He is not a spoiled brat.

 

[beloved57]

Evasion of points made with scripture.

 

[Jim Parker]

Evasion of points made with scripture.

Stop and Smell the TULIP

Total Depravity: Man is not callable of doing any good thing. His “free will” is limited to choosing between evil, very evil, and extremely evil. He cannot ever choose to do good because of his fallen nature. He cannot ever choose, of his own free will, to repent and believe the Gospel and be saved.

Man’s fallen nature renders mankind incapable of doing anything except that which is sinful and mankind is deemed by God to be guilty of sin. Since the wages of sin is death, all of mankind is condemned to die by God Who is offended and angered by man doing the only thing which he is able to do, sin. God knows that man cannot do anything good.

Unconditional Election: The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.

Knowing that all men are sinners and that they are totally incapable of doing anything but sinning, God, in His mercy, has decided from eternity to save specific individuals in spite of their sinful nature and inability to do anything good.

As for those who he does not choose for salvation, God kills them for being sinners. (It’s a bit like condemning to death people who were born blind because they refuse to see.)

Limited atonement: Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.

Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect.So, the atonement is not effective for all sinners but only for God’s “elect” sinners.

Irresistible grace: The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

So the Holy Spirit overwhelms some sinners’ resistance and causes them to obey the gospel and gives them saving faith. The individual has absolutely nothing to say since God is much bigger than all the individuals put together so if God wants you to be saved, you’re going to be saved and you have absolutely nothing to say about it.

Perseverance of the saints: Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

So, since God saved you there is no way that you can ever change your mind and fall from grace or be cast off by God even though the scriptures tell us that both events are possible.


So TULIP tells us:

(1) All man are incapable of doing anything but sin because of their fallen nature. Mankind cannot even entertain the thought of doing anything but rejecting God and sinning. It is an impossibility for mankind to do anything good.

(2) All men are guilty of sin and deserve to be punished by death according to God’s infinite justice which requires the death penalty for sin even though God is completely aware that it is absolutely impossible for man to do anything but sin.

(3) God knows that it is impossible for man to do good but holds man responsible (guilty) for failing to do what is impossible for him to do. (Condemns the blind man for not seeing.) Somehow, to Calvinists, this God is considered “just.”

(4) God sovereignly chooses some of mankind for reprogramming. These people are called “the elect.” The way it works is that the Holy Spirit overwhelms their resistance to doing good and reprograms them so that they delight to do God’s will, to obey Him, to believe in Him, and to Love Him. All that is in their new programming. Calvinists call the reprogramming of some and letting the rest go to hell, “God’s mercy” though it does not address the fact that those who are not selected for reprogramming, through no fault of their own, are still “blind men condemned to die for not being able to see.” Somehow this is considered an aspect of God’s mercy.

So:

What TULIP presents is an arbitrary god who mercilessly kills those who “stubbornly refuse” to do what is impossible for them to do but, in order to show his ”infinite mercy,” this god picks some sinners and reprograms them to be saints and saves them from being killed (by Him). Calvinists consider this god to be the just and merciful god who kills some people for not having the capacity to love and obey (which the Calvinist godlett arbitrarily withholds from them) him but lets others live after he re-programs them to love him and obey him. (Like wind-up toys. "Love and obey me Elmos"[batteries included])

Considering the various aspects of Calvinism that regularly pop up in discussions, I have had enough of that sicko godlet who gives sight to SOME blind people but then turns around and tortures the rest of the blind people forever in the fires of hell for being guilty of blindness. And this godlet can do it because it's totally sovereign and can do anything it wants.

And, supposedly, that's what the Bible taught but no one knew it until Calvin discovered 1500 years after Jesus' church was established.

That "Calvinist" god is not loving.
That "Calvinist" god is not just.
That "Calvinist" god is not kind.
That "Calvinist" god is not patient.
That "Calvinist" god is not love.
That "Calvinist" god is not the God of the Bible.
That "Calvinist" god is a jerk.

But that's just my opinion.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[Sinthesis]

An absolute Sovereign always has the freedom to not exercise His authority. A sovereign who will never tolerate another's will is a tyrant.

 

[Jim Parker]

An absolute Sovereign always has the freedom to not exercise His authority. A sovereign who will never tolerate another's will is a tyrant.

Bingo!

 

[Sinthesis]

Psa 86:15 - But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
​

All of God's suffering, whether in heaven or on the cross, originates from His loving choice to grant us freedom of choice.

 

[Deborah13]

Psa 86:15 - But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
​

All of God's suffering, whether in heaven or on the cross, originates from His loving choice to grant us freedom of choice.

 

[smaller]

One of the most obvious fallacies of all false religion is their faulty concept of God, the Great Sovereign Monarch of Heaven and Earth. This is very noticeable when religionist quote 1 Tim 2:4 in their erroneous defense of Christ died for all mankind without exception. It reads 1 Tim 2:4

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

They suppose that Gods will here is subjected to the will of men, and that some men whom God desires to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of truth, trump His desire, and their will and desire conflicts with Gods, and so ultimately they are lost, in spite of God desiring otherwise. This fallacious reasoning is nothing short of pure blasphemy and ultimate disrespect for the True God !

Why is it that you can not see the supposed Divine Sovereign as at least "potentially" Gracious to all mankind? Is this not obvious in His Granting of even temporal LIFE to mankind?

The best theologians, in my sight anyway, are those who do not rule out the possibility of Gods Dominating Grace and Eternal Mercy, in Christ, deployed. Where is that Divine Sovereign in YOUR mind? Apparently non-existing. I'd say you went past your own features and potentially made the Divine Sovereign a making of your own sights.

Were this not possible, of Dominating Grace and Eternal Mercy for all mankind, we would not have scriptures such as these:

John 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
(HOW miserably have WE failed in this matter!)

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

2 Corinthians 9:13
Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Determinists who go into "automatic writeoff zone" of people on the basis of their own petty impositions of what Divine Sovereignty IS have no clue themselves of Divine Sovereignty.

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Thessalonians 3:12
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Does that even remotely sound like a WRITE OFF of all men? Nay!!!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

Does this mean we go about thumping them over the head with eternal damnation? ONLY if you think that "threat" is LOVE and will actually result in someone TURNING from their own evil captivity. I think it's a pathetic tool myself that is in direct opposition to LOVING people.

1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Are you praying, supplicating, interceding and giving thanks for them into eternal torture instead?! That is simply whacked in the head in the opposing direction of Christ's DEMANDS for His Church.

2 Timothy 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I think it a worthless exercise to put on our little eternally DESTROYING, personally derived hand sock and bark at people. None of this has a THING to do with being a Christian.

Unfortunately a fair amount of "determinists" draw their own little self subscribed circle of what Divine Sovereignty is and isolate themselves in that little circle of their own making, claiming IT to be Divine Sovereignty when nothing could be further from THE TRUTH.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Why is it that you can not see the supposed Divine Sovereign as at least "potentially" Gracious to all mankind? Is this not obvious in His Granting of even temporal LIFE to mankind?

The best theologians, in my sight anyway, are those who do not rule out the possibility of Gods Dominating Grace and Eternal Mercy, in Christ, deployed. Where is that Divine Sovereign in YOUR mind? Apparently non-existing. I'd say you went past your own features and potentially made the Divine Sovereign a making of your own sights.

Were this not possible, of Dominating Grace and Eternal Mercy for all mankind, we would not have scriptures such as these:

John 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
(HOW miserably have WE failed in this matter!)

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

2 Corinthians 9:13
Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Determinists who go into "automatic writeoff zone" of people on the basis of their own petty impositions of what Divine Sovereignty IS have no clue themselves of Divine Sovereignty.

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Thessalonians 3:12
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Does that even remotely sound like a WRITE OFF of all men? Nay!!!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

Does this mean we go about thumping them over the head with eternal damnation? ONLY if you think that "threat" is LOVE and will actually result in someone TURNING from their own evil captivity. I think it's a pathetic tool myself that is in direct opposition to LOVING people.

1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Are you praying, supplicating, interceding and giving thanks for them into eternal torture instead?! That is simply whacked in the head in the opposing direction of Christ's DEMANDS for His Church.

2 Timothy 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I think it a worthless exercise to put on our little eternally DESTROYING, personally derived hand sock and bark at people. None of this has a THING to do with being a Christian.

Unfortunately a fair amount of "determinists" draw their own little self subscribed circle of what Divine Sovereignty is and isolate themselves in that little circle of their own making, claiming IT to be Divine Sovereignty when nothing could be further from THE TRUTH.

Very, very, good response. Oh what I would give to see others seek knowledge the way you have.

 

[smaller]

Very, very, good response. Oh what I would give to see others seek knowledge the way you have.

IF we are honestly following Christ, as His disciple, we WILL very much learn, to hate the evil present with ourselves, and the sin that dwells in our flesh that is "no more I." Romans 7:17-21. This is "mandatory training," this "hatred" for any of His disciples. Luke 14:26, John 12:25. This hatred is A GOOD THING! IF not, we get "Divinely trapped" here: 1 John 3:15.

The first warning from Jesus to His disciples is to avoid what? Yeah, HYPOCRISY.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

And at that point, the evil and sin indwelling "all men" will appear as a small speck. We have a RING SIDE SEAT into our own evil present and sin dwelling in our flesh, therefore it SHOULD appear as A BEAM!

And simultaneously we are removed, by CHRIST'S DIVINE DELIVERING HONESTY, out of the realms of the hypocrite, and can quite easily remove "specks" from the eyes of ANY MAN:

Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:42
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

I count myself fortunate for my fellow believers in Christ who DISCIPLED me, not in asking me to show "how good I am" but how I "hate" myself and my own life, to prove His Discipleship. This, I can easily prove. And these fine Disciples proved to me, how easily I was captured by HYPOCRISY and LIES.

We will not be "led" by what we HATE. But we will not LIE, and be captured by HYPOCRISY.

Therefore, this is VALUABLE insight for any believer, any Disciple of Christ, from Above.

 

[th1b.taylor]

IF we are honestly following Christ, as His disciple, we WILL very much learn, to hate the evil present with ourselves, and the sin that dwells in our flesh that is "no more I." Romans 7:17-21. This is "mandatory training," this "hatred" for any of His disciples. Luke 14:26, John 12:25. This hatred is A GOOD THING! IF not, we get "Divinely trapped" here: 1 John 3:15.

The first warning from Jesus to His disciples is to avoid what? Yeah, HYPOCRISY.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

And at that point, the evil and sin indwelling "all men" will appear as a small speck. We have a RING SIDE SEAT into our own evil present and sin dwelling in our flesh, therefore it SHOULD appear as A BEAM!

And simultaneously we are removed, by CHRIST'S DIVINE DELIVERING HONESTY, out of the realms of the hypocrite, and can quite easily remove "specks" from the eyes of ANY MAN:

Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:42
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

I count myself fortunate for my fellow believers in Christ who DISCIPLED me, not in asking me to show "how good I am" but how I "hate" myself and my own life, to prove His Discipleship. This, I can easily prove. And these fine Disciples proved to me, how easily I was captured by HYPOCRISY and LIES.

We will not be "led" by what we HATE. But we will not LIE, and be captured by HYPOCRISY.

Therefore, this is VALUABLE insight for any believer, any Disciple of Christ, from Above.

GLORY! You have said it all but I will add a witness statement, if I might. In 1968 we were doing an insertion into Cambodia to stop a shipment moving on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. It was a hot insertion but the fire was light and as we lifted off, right there, at the edge of the river were two NVA soldiers, relieving themselves into the river. I was cold blooded and never hesitated, I pulled the triggers on my Butterfly Trigger Assy. and shot both, in the back and they died falling in their own bodily waste.

That night I bought the house a round in celebration of the double kill with no return fire. As a Christian, I would still, readily,l kill the two enemy soldiers but celebrate? No, it is nothing to celebrate and the act, though required, is one of necessity to protect the men we were inserting.

Right up until the Holy Spirit indwelt this od boy, I still would have enjoyed doing the same thing but as a Christian, there is no pleasure in killing, even when it is required.

 

[smaller]

GLORY! You have said it all but I will add a witness statement, if I might. In 1968 we were doing an insertion into Cambodia to stop a shipment moving on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. It was a hot insertion but the fire was light and as we lifted off, right there, at the edge of the river were two NVA soldiers, relieving themselves into the river. I was cold blooded and never hesitated, I pulled the triggers on my Butterfly Trigger Assy. and shot both, in the back and they died falling in their own bodily waste.

That night I bought the house a round in celebration of the double kill with no return fire. As a Christian, I would still, readily,l kill the two enemy soldiers but celebrate? No, it is nothing to celebrate and the act, though required, is one of necessity to protect the men we were inserting.

Right up until the Holy Spirit indwelt this od boy, I still would have enjoyed doing the same thing but as a Christian, there is no pleasure in killing, even when it is required.

We are often put in positions of regret. But, we take comfort in this:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This insight is only possible if we see, even in part, The Divine Superiority of God in Christ over "all things." How that plays out in the long run, we have yet to 'experience.' But I suspect, no, rather I know, the internal washing of Christ, at least in a trickle:

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

When God Forgets, so will we ALL:

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[th1b.taylor]

We are often put in positions of regret. But, we take comfort in this:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This insight is only possible if we see, even in part, The Divine Superiority of God in Christ over "all things." How that plays out in the long run, we have yet to 'experience.' But I suspect, no, rather I know, the internal washing of Christ, at least in a trickle:

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

When God Forgets, so will we ALL:

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Amen!

 

[williamt]

Stop and Smell the TULIP

Total Depravity: Man is not callable of doing any good thing. His “free will” is limited to choosing between evil, very evil, and extremely evil. He cannot ever choose to do good because of his fallen nature. He cannot ever choose, of his own free will, to repent and believe the Gospel and be saved.

Man’s fallen nature renders mankind incapable of doing anything except that which is sinful and mankind is deemed by God to be guilty of sin. Since the wages of sin is death, all of mankind is condemned to die by God Who is offended and angered by man doing the only thing which he is able to do, sin. God knows that man cannot do anything good.

Unconditional Election: The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.

Knowing that all men are sinners and that they are totally incapable of doing anything but sinning, God, in His mercy, has decided from eternity to save specific individuals in spite of their sinful nature and inability to do anything good.

As for those who he does not choose for salvation, God kills them for being sinners. (It’s a bit like condemning to death people who were born blind because they refuse to see.)

Limited atonement: Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.

Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect.So, the atonement is not effective for all sinners but only for God’s “elect” sinners.

Irresistible grace: The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

So the Holy Spirit overwhelms some sinners’ resistance and causes them to obey the gospel and gives them saving faith. The individual has absolutely nothing to say since God is much bigger than all the individuals put together so if God wants you to be saved, you’re going to be saved and you have absolutely nothing to say about it.

Perseverance of the saints: Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

So, since God saved you there is no way that you can ever change your mind and fall from grace or be cast off by God even though the scriptures tell us that both events are possible.


So TULIP tells us:

(1) All man are incapable of doing anything but sin because of their fallen nature. Mankind cannot even entertain the thought of doing anything but rejecting God and sinning. It is an impossibility for mankind to do anything good.

(2) All men are guilty of sin and deserve to be punished by death according to God’s infinite justice which requires the death penalty for sin even though God is completely aware that it is absolutely impossible for man to do anything but sin.

(3) God knows that it is impossible for man to do good but holds man responsible (guilty) for failing to do what is impossible for him to do. (Condemns the blind man for not seeing.) Somehow, to Calvinists, this God is considered “just.”

(4) God sovereignly chooses some of mankind for reprogramming. These people are called “the elect.” The way it works is that the Holy Spirit overwhelms their resistance to doing good and reprograms them so that they delight to do God’s will, to obey Him, to believe in Him, and to Love Him. All that is in their new programming. Calvinists call the reprogramming of some and letting the rest go to hell, “God’s mercy” though it does not address the fact that those who are not selected for reprogramming, through no fault of their own, are still “blind men condemned to die for not being able to see.” Somehow this is considered an aspect of God’s mercy.

So:

What TULIP presents is an arbitrary god who mercilessly kills those who “stubbornly refuse” to do what is impossible for them to do but, in order to show his ”infinite mercy,” this god picks some sinners and reprograms them to be saints and saves them from being killed (by Him). Calvinists consider this god to be the just and merciful god who kills some people for not having the capacity to love and obey (which the Calvinist godlett arbitrarily withholds from them) him but lets others live after he re-programs them to love him and obey him. (Like wind-up toys. "Love and obey me Elmos"[batteries included])

Considering the various aspects of Calvinism that regularly pop up in discussions, I have had enough of that sicko godlet who gives sight to SOME blind people but then turns around and tortures the rest of the blind people forever in the fires of hell for being guilty of blindness. And this godlet can do it because it's totally sovereign and can do anything it wants.

And, supposedly, that's what the Bible taught but no one knew it until Calvin discovered 1500 years after Jesus' church was established.

That "Calvinist" god is not loving.
That "Calvinist" god is not just.
That "Calvinist" god is not kind.
That "Calvinist" god is not patient.
That "Calvinist" god is not love.
That "Calvinist" god is not the God of the Bible.
That "Calvinist" god is a jerk.

But that's just my opinion.
Your mileage may vary.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to me (Total Depravity)
Unless the Father (Unconditional Election)
Who sent me draws him. (Irresistible Grace)
And I will raise him up (Limited Atonement)
On the last day. (Perseverance of the Saints)

TULIP

God bless,
William

 

[Jim Parker]

No one can come to me (Total Depravity)
Unless the Father (Unconditional Election)
Who sent me draws him. (Irresistible Grace)
And I will raise him up (Limited Atonement)
On the last day. (Perseverance of the Saints)

Jhn 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Lat time I checked, "all" meant "all."
That TULIP stinks.
That TULIP is the logo of a false god that punishes people with eternal torment for failing to do what it made impossible for them to do.
Civilized societies put that kind of being in institutes for the criminally insane.
Less "civilized" just kill them and are rid of them.
In any case, that TULIP does NOT represent the God of scripture.

 

[williamt]

Jhn 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Lat time I checked, "all" meant "all."
That TULIP stinks.
That TULIP is the logo of a false god that punishes people with eternal torment for failing to do what it made impossible for them to do.
Civilized societies put that kind of being in institutes for the criminally insane.
Less "civilized" just kill them and are rid of them.
In any case, that TULIP does NOT represent the God of scripture.

You'll have to excuse me as I refrain from commenting until you deal with John 6:44 (I hate Scriptural ping pong).

And my post was directed to:

And not:

God bless,
William

 

[Jim Parker]

You'll have to excuse me as I refrain from commenting until you deal with John 6:44 (I hate Scriptural ping pong).

And my post was directed to:

And not:

God bless,
William

Bottom line.
If you adhere to the TULIP teaching, then you believe in a sociopathic god that makes men sin, prevents them for doing good and then punishes them by burning them in hell fire for not doing the good which it made impossible for them.
I don't care how you mangle scripture to get to that kind of false god.
It is NOT the God of scripture.

 

[williamt]

Bottom line.
If you adhere to the TULIP teaching, then you believe in a sociopathic god that makes men sin, prevents them for doing good and then punishes them by burning them in hell fire for not doing the good which it made impossible for them.
I don't care how you mangle scripture to get to that kind of false god.
It is NOT the God of scripture.

 

[Jim Parker]

cute
Calvinism's godlet is still a monster having more in common with the demon "Allah" than with the God of scripture.