The Afterlife

[journeymanisnothing]

The Bible tells us their will be nothing offensive in the here after. This is very similar to what happens when we come to know our Savior,

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Psa.119:165

There are other similarities like trees we can now see to trees like those which bear twelve fruits. How that will appear I'm not sure. It does refer to it as "a tree of life." So probably how the Bible describes the tree of life.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Bible tells us their will be nothing offensive in the here after. This is very similar to what happens when we come to know our Savior,

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Psa.119:165

There are other similarities like trees we can now see to trees like those which bear twelve fruits. How that will appear I'm not sure. It does refer to it as "a tree of life." So probably how the Bible describes the tree of life.

The Bible tells us a lot more:

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said,`No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him,`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (Lk. 16:19-31 NKJ)

Lets be honest, most humans went to Hades when they died and remain there until judgment Day:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

The wicked have no peace:

20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, When it cannot rest, Whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked." (Isa. 57:20-21 NKJ)

Its especially unpleasant for those who walk in the light of their own fire, rather than the light of God revealed in Scripture:

Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled-- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isa. 50:11-51:1 NKJ)

Thanks be to God, Hades is tolerable for those ignorant of God, who didn't wickedly reject God's revelation:

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
(Matt. 11:20-26 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The Bible tells us a lot more:

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said,`No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him,`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (Lk. 16:19-31 NKJ)

Lets be honest, most humans went to Hades when they died and remain there until judgment Day:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

The wicked have no peace:

20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, When it cannot rest, Whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked." (Isa. 57:20-21 NKJ)

Its especially unpleasant for those who walk in the light of their own fire, rather than the light of God revealed in Scripture:

Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled-- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isa. 50:11-51:1 NKJ)

Thanks be to God, Hades is tolerable for those ignorant of God, who didn't wickedly reject God's revelation:

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
(Matt. 11:20-26 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

Hello Alfred Persson.
While the story of "the rich man and Lazarus" shows suffering after death, our Lord didn't tell that story for that reason.

All the elements contained in what happens to the saved and unsaved are included in that story, Except for sometime "after the rich mand died", there is no specific time frame for when his suffering began. Was it immediate?
It doesn't have to be, because dying in sin causes separation from God where there is torment.
I believe the judgement seat of Christ and the GWTJ are the same, where the unrepentant will temporarily suffer while their sins are exposed and after that, they're annihilated. I believe repentance is only accepted by God before a person dies.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hello Alfred Persson.
While the story of "the rich man and Lazarus" shows suffering after death, our Lord didn't tell that story for that reason.

All the elements contained in what happens to the saved and unsaved are included in that story, Except for sometime "after the rich mand died", there is no specific time frame for when his suffering began. Was it immediate?
It doesn't have to be, because dying in sin causes separation from God where there is torment.
I believe the judgement seat of Christ and the GWTJ are the same, where the unrepentant will temporarily suffer while their sins are exposed and after that, they're annihilated. I believe repentance is only accepted by God before a person dies.

I don't agree. If you're interested in a thorough explanation of the parable and its meaning, check my site out. At the very least, you will find it intellectually stimulating:

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both? | End Time News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't agree. If you're interested in a thorough explanation of the parable and its meaning, check my site out. At the very least, you will find it intellectually stimulating:

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both? | End Time News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

I read part of it. Our Lords' reason for telling it was to show how the OT spoke of him,

he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Lk.16:31

You also made a reference to Abraham and Lazarus wanting to cross the impassable gulf to comfort the rich man, but the passage says nothing of them thinking that way.
You also speak of the resurrection in a way which is contrary to the nature of the plant life in this world that symbolizes it.
For instance, an apple seed can only produce apples. This is why the new birth only occurs before we're planted in the ground.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I read part of it. Our Lords' reason for telling it was to show how the OT spoke of him,

he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Lk.16:31

You also made a reference to Abraham and Lazarus wanting to cross the impassable gulf to comfort the rich man, but the passage says nothing of them thinking that way.
You also speak of the resurrection in a way which is contrary to the nature of the plant life in this world that symbolizes it.
For instance, an apple seed can only produce apples. This is why the new birth only occurs before we're planted in the ground.

No, in context Christ is replying to the Pharisees who mocked His authority as the Messiah.

13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. (Lk. 16:13-15 NKJ)

And how can you miss this:

And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No, in context Christ is replying to the Pharisees who mocked His authority as the Messiah.

I agree. That's the key to our Lords' point. The religious leaders sat in Moses seat (Mt.23:2), but they mocked the One Moses wrote about (Jn.5:46-47.)

13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. (Lk. 16:13-15 NKJ)

And how can you miss this:

And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

I'm not missing it. After death, the gulf separating the saved from the unsaved is impassable. This is why scripture says,

behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2Cor.6:2

 

[Alfred Persson]

I agree. That's the key to our Lords' point. The religious leaders sat in Moses seat (Mt.23:2), but they mocked the One Moses wrote about (Jn.5:46-47.)

I'm not missing it. After death, the gulf separating the saved from the unsaved is impassable. This is why scripture says,

behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2Cor.6:2

You are missing Hades cannot be the place of eternal punishment, because everyone in it will rise from it, some to a resurrection of life and some to a resurrection of condemnation:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)

And then Hades itself is cast into the Lake of fire, to "die the second death" as it were, never to return.

 

[Highway54]

The Bible tells us their will be nothing offensive in the here after. This is very similar to what happens when we come to know our Savior,

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Psa.119:165

There are other similarities like trees we can now see to trees like those which bear twelve fruits. How that will appear I'm not sure. It does refer to it as "a tree of life." So probably how the Bible describes the tree of life.

Basically it is unimaginable Journeyman, but I truly look forward to the day when Ps 145:16 is fulfilled.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You are missing Hades cannot be the place of eternal punishment, because everyone in it will rise from it, some to a resurrection of life and some to a resurrection of condemnation:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)

And then Hades itself is cast into the Lake of fire, to "die the second death" as it were, never to return.

I understand what you're saying. The point Jesus is making is that if they don't hear what Moses said, they won't hear Jesus and if sinners won't hear Jesus they're doomed.
The point isn't how unrepentant sinners are tormented after death temporarily and then saved. The point is unrepentant sinners are tormented after death and then destroyed completely.

Look at how the 2nd coming is described.

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed.....in flaming fire...2Thes.1:7-8

as a thief in the night.....the elements shall melt with fervent heat.....2Pet.3:10

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Basically it is unimaginable Journeyman, but I truly look forward to the day when Ps 145:16 is fulfilled.

So do I Highway54, but until he comes the 2nd time we are given peace that the unsaved will never have.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you.....Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn.14:27

Jesus knew he was going to be arrested shortly and what would follow. He said,

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jn.14:1

He conquered death. He destroys death. Death goes into the "lake of fire" and is no more. His presence is like a raging inferno all around.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I understand what you're saying. The point Jesus is making is that if they don't hear what Moses said, they won't hear Jesus and if sinners won't hear Jesus they're doomed.
The point isn't how unrepentant sinners are tormented after death temporarily and then saved. The point is unrepentant sinners are tormented after death and then destroyed completely.

Look at how the 2nd coming is described.

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed.....in flaming fire...2Thes.1:7-8

as a thief in the night.....the elements shall melt with fervent heat.....2Pet.3:10

Jesus does destroy the wicked on His return, but some survivors of Armageddon (who weren't believers) must not have been wicked. They enter the Millennial Kingdom to be judged. While there, they repopulate the earth. Christians are Kings and Priests ministering the gospel to them, but none of them can be saved until judgment Day. The devil is let out at the end of this kingdom and much of the earth fails the test and are cast into the fire. The survivors appear before the Great White Throne are judged. Then Death Hades and the Sea are emptied of its dead, and they are judged.

The point is, many of those who died without Christ are like the survivors of Armageddon. It was too late for them to become Christians, can't "have faith in the unseen if it then is seen". The wicked are cast into fire without doubt, but not all of them are wicked. They get a second chance in Christ's millennial kingdom.

Those who died without Christ, but were not wicked, get a second chance in Hades to repent and believe.
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

The dead who obey Christ's voice while in the Grave rise up on Judgment Day to a resurrection of life.

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 NKJ)

I don't know why so many believers reject this scripturally elegant solution to the problem of the unevangelized and suggest Christ isn't the only way to be saved. That clearly is wrong.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus does destroy the wicked on His return, but some survivors of Armageddon (who weren't believers) must not have been wicked.

When Christ returns, it's to judge the living and dead,

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 1Pet.4:5

They enter the Millennial Kingdom to be judged.

The Jews have the same view of scripture as you with respect to how the Messiah will reign on earth. They believe their King will come, wipe out human enemies, then teach people Gods' word along with his people and the whole world will live in peace.
Jesus taught the opposite,

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mt.10:34

Believers and unbelievers are being divided now. Our Lord gives his peace only to believers and I see him reigning over this world in mercy now And,

the Lord Jesus Christ...shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Tim.4:1

While there, they repopulate the earth.

When Jesus returns, all are resurrected and death the last enemy is destroyed

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.....So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor.15:26,54

Christians are Kings and Priests ministering the gospel to them,

We're doing that now.

but none of them can be saved until judgment Day.

That's all of us.

The devil is let out at the end of this kingdom and much of the earth fails the test and are cast into the fire.

The devil is bound by the gospel and can only be set free by perverting it.

The survivors appear before the Great White Throne are judged. Then Death Hades and the Sea are emptied of its dead, and they are judged.

The GWTJ and the judgement seat of Christ are the same judgement.

The point is, many of those who died without Christ are like the survivors of Armageddon. It was too late for them to become Christians, can't "have faith in the unseen if it then is seen". The wicked are cast into fire without doubt, but not all of them are wicked. They get a second chance in Christ's millennial kingdom.

The Bible says even people who predated any writing of Moses and the prophets, or lived after but never heard of them are without excuse.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Rom.1:20

Those who died without Christ, but were not wicked, get a second chance in Hades to repent and believe.
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Peter obviously means the gospel was preached to people when they were alive, but have since died, like in Heb.4:2

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them (the people of Moses' day.)

The dead who obey Christ's voice while in the Grave rise up on Judgment Day to a resurrection of life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

He meant people listening to him preach, or later through the gospels

27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, (Jn. 5:25-29 NKJ)

Highlight

and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

because it's all saved and unsaved.

I don't know why so many believers reject this scripturally elegant solution to the problem of the unevangelized and suggest Christ isn't the only way to be saved. That clearly is wrong.

My friend, every scripture I cited agrees with the scripture you cited, but only from the way I'm interpreting it. They disagree with your interpretation.

I think one problem is that people don't really see Christs' victory over sin and death as a victory. I think people are under the delusion that sometime in the future, Jesus is going to war with his saints.

Our Savior himself defeated false religion and the beast of that time along with every demon in existence. When his followers are done conquering with him, the war is over. It's judgment day.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson said:
Jesus does destroy the wicked on His return, but some survivors of Armageddon (who weren't believers) must not have been wicked.

Journeyman said:
When Christ returns, it's to judge the living and dead: "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead." 1Pet.4:5

Jesus destroys the Wicked, mostly left over Beast followers on His return and the righteous are rewarded:
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:41-43 NKJ)

I see the 1st resurrection and all in it become Kings and Priests in Christ's Millennial Kingdom, but the rest of the dead must wait until the Great White Throne Judgment AFTER the Millennial Kingdom

Can you copy paste the text here, just to prove you aren't confusing Christ's Return in glory with His angels (Mt. 25:32-46) and the Great White Throne Judgment that happens after Christ has reigned for a 1,000 years:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:4-21:1 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson said:

They enter the Millennial Kingdom to be judged.

Journeyman said:

The Jews have the same view of scripture as you with respect to how the Messiah will reign on earth. They believe their King will come, wipe out human enemies, then teach people Gods' word along with his people and the whole world will live in peace. Jesus taught the opposite: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mt.10:34

Believers and unbelievers are being divided now. Our Lord gives his peace only to believers and I see him reigning over this world in mercy now And: "the Lord Jesus Christ...shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Tim.4:1

The Jews know the Old Testament which details these things quite clearly.

Christ wasn't discussing the Millennial Kingdom in Mt. 10:34, you took Him out of context.

Christians will be persecuted by the Antichrist Beast almost into extinction, they don't rule until God's Kingdom comes:

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (Rev. 13:7-10 NKJ)

Amillennialism? Is that what you believe? Sum it up for us.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson said:

While there, they repopulate the earth.

Journeyman said:

When Jesus returns, all are resurrected and death the last enemy is destroyed: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.....So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.1Cor.15:26,54

Jesus and His Holy Army will descend upon Armageddon and slay the Beast's Armies gathered there. Then both the Beast and False Prophet are tossed Body and Soul into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for ever and ever.

The Carrion Birds of the sky will feast on the corpses of the slain men and fallen angels slaughtered there (Mt. 24:40-42; Lk. 17:34-37; Rev. 19:13-21)

Then Satan is imprisoned for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).

Just before Armageddon the 1st resurrection of all the Saints occurred. Another name for this is the Rapture. These Christs "brings with Him" as He descends upon the earth. Many risen saints fight alongside Christ's angels at Armageddon (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Ps. 110:3)

But Death isn't done away with until the Great White Throne Judgment, which is at least 1,000 years after Christ's return. Your chronology seems a bit confused.

Perhaps you can give us a outline of the events in the order they happen.



11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:11-20:1 NKJ)

20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:1-21:1 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

So do I Highway54, but until he comes the 2nd time we are given peace that the unsaved will never have.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you.....Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn.14:27

Jesus knew he was going to be arrested shortly and what would follow. He said,

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jn.14:1

He conquered death. He destroys death. Death goes into the "lake of fire" and is no more. His presence is like a raging inferno all around.

Yes sir, peace is one thing we Christians do have to a degree, but to me it is the contentment that we receive. Peace can be interrupted from worldly influences. Take our exemplar for example, would you say he had peace when his own brothers and sisters of the faith abused him? But he definitely had contentment, knowing he was pleasing his God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

When Christ returns, it's to judge the living and dead,

I asked you for a summary outline of what you believe will happen. I thought it good to show you mine, its posted here:

A Summary of Judgment Events during Christs Coming

Resurrection events at Christ's Coming and beyond: During Christ's "Coming" (3952 παρουσία Parousia) which spans a period of time culminating with His appearance in Jerusalem---the 1st resurrection/rapture/Gathering occurs. As Paul said the living would not precede the Dead in Christ, the 1st...

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[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus destroys the Wicked, mostly left over Beast followers on His return and the righteous are rewarded:
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:41-43 NKJ)

I see the 1st resurrection and all in it become Kings and Priests in Christ's Millennial Kingdom, but the rest of the dead must wait until the Great White Throne Judgment AFTER the Millennial Kingdom

Can you copy paste the text here, just to prove you aren't confusing Christ's Return in glory with His angels (Mt. 25:32-46) and the Great White Throne Judgment that happens after Christ has reigned for a 1,000 years:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:4-21:1 NKJ)

Can you copy paste the text here, just to prove you aren't confusing Christ's Return in glory with His angels (Mt. 25:32-46) and the Great White Throne Judgment that happens after Christ has reigned for a 1,000 years:

I've answered your points, but you simply restate your beliefs and ignore that when Jesus returns,
1) the universe as we know it is engulfed in fire by his presense
2) the resurrection occurs and the saints are changed.
3) death no longer exists.

I posted scripture on all of this which fully agrees with the return of our Savior, the GWTJ and the judgement seat of Christ all describing the same events.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I've answered your points, but you simply restate your beliefs and ignore that when Jesus returns,
1) the universe as we know it is engulfed in fire by his presense
2) the resurrection occurs and the saints are changed.
3) death no longer exists.

I posted scripture on all of this which fully agrees with the return of our Savior, the GWTJ and the judgement seat of Christ all describing the same events.

No, you said everything is burned up at Christ's return. That means the 1,000 year Millennial kingdom never comes into existence, and neither does the Great White Throne judgment AFTER it.

That is why I asked for a simple outline detailing the chronology of events. That is not asking for too much. I posted mine here:

A Summary of Judgment Events during Christs Coming

Resurrection events at Christ's Coming and beyond: During Christ's "Coming" (3952 παρουσία Parousia) which spans a period of time culminating with His appearance in Jerusalem---the 1st resurrection/rapture/Gathering occurs. As Paul said the living would not precede the Dead in Christ, the 1st...

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