The Baptism With The Holy Spirit (A Scriptural Study)

[John Zain]

John the Baptist tells us that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit:
“He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11).
Also see similar wording in the other gospels (Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
It is God’s will that people should receive this special baptism
in which people are baptized WITH the Holy Spirit BY Jesus.
But, this is not to be confused with another type of baptism, which concerns salvation:
“For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body (the Church)” (1 Corinthians 12:12).
In this latter case, the Holy Spirit does the baptizing.

1 – Jesus told His group of disciples to wait for “the Promise” of the Father:
”Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of
Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” Luke 24:49

2 – Luke gives more details about what Jesus instructed them:
“… wait for the Promise of the Father …
… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive (spiritual) power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8
This has nothing to do with salvation (where the Holy Spirit comes inside a person):
“the Spirit of truth … He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:17).
“the Holy Spirit who dwells in us” (1 Timothy 1:14, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16).
But, the Holy Spirit baptism is always about the Holy Spirit coming upon a person.

3 – On the Day of Pentecost, approximately 120 people received
what was promised above … the baptism with the Holy Spirit:
“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty rushing wind,
and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them
divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all
filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Acts 2:1-4

4 – The Judean Jews wanted to know how to receive this same experience:
“ ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every
one of you be baptized (in water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children,
and all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call’ “ Acts 2:37-39
So, we must acknowledge that this GIFT of the Holy Spirit is the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
which is the same experience that the 120 received on the Day of Pentecost.

5 – Peter and John amazed the Jewish leaders:
“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them (the high priest and others) …
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were
uneducated and untrained men, they marvelled ... And seeing the man who had been healed
standing with them, they could say nothing against it ... For, indeed, that a notable miracle
has been done through them is evident to all …” Acts 4:8-16

6 – Peter and John had great boldness now, and they prayed that
their companions would also be given this boldness and spiritual power:
“And when they had prayed … they (the companions) were all filled with the Holy Spirit,
and they spoke the word of God with boldness” Acts 4:31
It is suggested that when their companions were filled with the Holy Spirit,
they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Obviously, all of the details
of what happens in every event cannot always be mentioned.

7 – Because many members had received the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
there was great power for miracles in the church:
“And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done
among the people ... and they were all healed.” Acts 5:12-16
Other examples are Stephen (Acts 6:8) and Philip (Acts 8:6-7).

8 – Receiving the Holy Spirit -- the baptism with the Holy Spirit:
“… when they (Peter & John) had come down, (they) prayed for them* that they might
receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He (the Holy Spirit) had fallen upon none of them*.
They* had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them*,
and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of hands
the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, ‘Give me this power also,
that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.’” Acts 8:14-19 * the Samarians

9 – Saul (Paul) was healed and received the baptism with the Holy Spirit:
“And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said,
‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus … has sent me that you may receive your sight and be
filled with the Holy Spirit.’ Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales,
and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.” Acts 9:17-18
In point 3, when they were “filled with the Holy Spirit”, they received the Holy Spirit baptism.

10 – Paul preached and performed miracles under God’s power:
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem
and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” Romans 15:19

... to be continued in Part 2 ...

 

[John Zain]

The Baptism With the Holy Spirit (Part 2)

11 – The evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit baptism:
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word
… the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they (Peter and his companions) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter asked, ‘Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be
baptized (in water) who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’
And he commanded them to be (water) baptized in the name of the Lord.“ Acts 10:44-48

12 – Peter recalls point 11 when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit baptism:
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remember the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ … God gave them the same gift
as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ†Acts 11:15-17
The GIFT was the same as in point 3, and also see point 4.

13 – Paul and Barnabus’ experiences with miracles:
“They stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness
to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.†Acts 14:3

14 – Another occasion where believers received the Holy Spirit baptism:
“… they (the Ephesian disciples) were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them,
and they spoke with tongues and prophesied …†Acts 19:5-6
Water baptism preceded the Holy Spirit baptism, but in point 11 the reverse was true.

Now let’s take a close look at the inter-connections and linkages:

……………………………………………………1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise (HS) ---Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptized with HS -----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with HS ---------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received HS ----------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

I believe it is obvious that all of these are directly connected.


Some people say,
“That’s all very nice, but it’s not for now … it was only for back then … at the time of the early church.â€
First of all, let’s ask the question: What in the New Testament is NOT for today?
Even the instructions to slave masters and slaves are for today (because there is slavery today).

But, here’s the #1 reason some people have for debunking the Holy Spirit baptism for today:
“But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease;
but whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.â€
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10).

Some church leaders who do NOT have this baptism say what is “perfect†is the Scriptures.
Paul wrote the above passage in about 54 a.d. Did he know there would be a Bible?
But beyond that, you can imagine all the reasons church leaders have had for criticising
this powerful spiritual baptism that they do NOT have.

The explanation

The Greek word for “perfect†means “end or completionâ€, so surely this is referring to the
Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things (then all will be perfect in heaven).

For 30-40 years, there have been millions of testimonies from people around the world
who have been blessed by evangelists, etc. who have the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The people who have been performing miracles, etc. in the name of Jesus
(all around the world) have this Holy Spirit baptism.

The pre-requisite from the very begining

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a pre-requisite for receiving any of
the 9 major spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-10) to any strong degree:
the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healings,
the working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, different
kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues.

Since the early church, God has intended the baptism with the Holy Spirit to be
a pre-requisite for being called into “the 5-fold ministryâ€:
“And He Himself (Jesus) gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ …†(Ephesians 4:11-12).
Notice that it is Jesus Himself who “calls†these people.
All of these 5 critical leadership ministries were intended to be powered by
the 9 major spiritual gifts above (with each leader receiving one or more of them).

But, throughout history, there have been multitudes of self-appointed ministries
where the people were NOT called by Jesus and NOT given any spiritual gifts.
These people were never anointed, but operated basically “in the fleshâ€.

Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947), a world-famous healing evangelist, said:
"If you do not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
you are living in a weak and impoverished condition."
.

 

[Enow]

Re: The Baptism With the Holy Spirit (Part 2)

Notice that it is Jesus Himself who “calls†these people. All of these 5 critical leadership ministries were intended to be powered by
the 9 major spiritual gifts above (with each leader receiving one or more of them).

But, throughout history, there have been multitudes of self-appointed ministries
where the people were NOT called by Jesus and NOT given any spiritual gifts.
These people were never anointed, but operated basically “in the fleshâ€.

The anointing is not a seperate event from the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ at our salvation.

1 John 2:26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947), a world-famous healing evangelist, said:
"If you do not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
you are living in a weak and impoverished condition."
.

How is it that nobody had to be prepped in order to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit? Answer: Because by believing in Jesus Christ, we receive the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ as Jesus gave that gift by His promise.

For anyone to ask a question towards believers to give doubt to His keeping His promise: does not sound like he is preaching the Good News to me.

 

[Webb]

Unscriptural conclusions. My offer remains open.

 

[Rageprophet]

Good post John very well laid out, but no matter how well you lay it out you will still have this.

1 Chronicles 13

9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.

Someone is always going to try and steady the Ark and try and dictate where God can go and how he can get there.

 

[jasoncran]

i wonder, what do the nay says think when that which is complete is come and also where there is love tounges shall cease and prophecies shall fail.

so the question is what prophecies have failed that are listed in the bible and love is here fully? hmm

 

[Rageprophet]

i wonder, what do the nay says think when that which is complete is come and also where there is love tounges shall cease and prophecies shall fail.

so the question is what prophecies have failed that are listed in the bible and love is here fully? hmm

:eeeekkk if love is here we in trouble

 

[Enow]

Ahem

Seems kinda strange how when Paul as led by the Holy Spirit exhorted the Corinthians church to seek the gift of prophesy over tongues, but yet in today's movement of the "Spirit", they seek to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign: the sign of tongues.

So let us bring this observation to the floor:

Show the verse where those that were already believers that had the Holy Spirit but had received the Holy Spirit again in the Book of Acts ( not counting the disciples that were awaiting for the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit at Pentecost) and I will say to you that they were new believers and the assumption is being made that the Holy Spirit fell on those that had already had Him. That is called reading inbetween the lines.

One can say that to me, but guess what? I got the epistles to back me up.

Now consider this: as letters to the churches are written for their instructions and for keeping the faith: then if they run contrary to these false assumptions seen in Acts: then you have to start going to Jesus i8n prayer and ask for discernment and wisdom in testing these other supernatural phenomenon as leading believers away from their resting place in Christ as well as departing from the faith.

Could this be the strong delusion for believing a lie that one can receive the Holy Spirit again and for a tongue that comes with no interpretation?

Is it not an adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign?

Is not climbing up another way other than relating to God the Father through Jesus Christ the work of iniquity of breaking the commandment of His invitation in John 14:6-7 in how to know God the Father and that is through the Son?

All I can do is ask you all to take pause and take this to Jesus in prayer. May God cause the increase.

 

[Saltwater]

Hello Enow,

There "appears" to be a second filling of the Holy Spirit in Acts4:8 & 31 (context ch4:1-31, subjects = Jerusalem congregation who already received the HS in Acts 2) & again in Acts13:52 (context 13:44-52, subjects=Paul & Barnabus with Paul receiving the HS in Acts9 ?).

Looking forward to your comments.

 

[Enow]

Hello Enow,

There "appears" to be a second filling of the Holy Spirit in Acts4:8 & 31 (context ch4:1-31, subjects = Jerusalem congregation who already received the HS in Acts 2) & again in Acts13:52 (context 13:44-52, subjects=Paul & Barnabus with Paul receiving the HS in Acts9 ?).

Looking forward to your comments.

I do not know if there is any difference in translations in regards to those references, but just FYI: I'll be using the King James Bible for those verses so if there is any differences per any other translations that we seem to be two ships passing each other in the night, then I guess you will have to cite your version: but as it is:

The reason Acts 4:8 was written that way was to cite how Peter was speaking in answering the question in the previous verse.

Acts 4:6And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

This was to clarify that it was not Peter that was speaking, but the Holy Ghost in him. Peter did not need to be filled again to speak for God.

This chapter began with them preaching to the multitude with this result:

Acts 4:1And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. 4Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

It did not report that the believing Jews had received the Holy Spirit yet nor that any water baptism had taken place. It was then that the rulers intercepted

After they were let go into their own company: and readers has to wonder what precisely their own company entails but including the new believers among them for it was written that they were the ones testifying of those that preached to them.

Acts 4:23And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Obviously, the Lord has ministered greatly to the multitude that the apostles had preached earlier and the resulting fruit is a community of believers: about 5.000 of new believers as it was signified as seperate in what they did as a community in laying everything they had at the apostles' feet. It was they that spoke of one accord and they that prayed, because the result was that they all spoke the word of God with boldness and yet differentiating from those that had preached earlier because they were already preaching the word of God with boldness of which they had testified earlier.

Acts 4:31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

I can understand how and why anyone would think that the Holy Spirit fell on those that had the Holy Spirit from before: but the testimony given was the results of the believing multitude in regards to the apostles: thus signifying as happening to them: not including the apostles as ones receiving the Holy Spirit again nor resulting in preaching the Word of God in boldness when the apostles were already doing it and thus filled from before. Then Acts reiterated the believing multitude in verse 32 as signifying more of the results of God's work.

So Peter was not filled again: but signifying to the readers by what authority he was speaking.

And the results of the apostles' ministry was being recorded in regards to the believing multitude.

It is an assumption to believe that the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles again when the believing multitude of 5,000 had not been reported as having received the Holy Spirit yet. Careful reading will show the results of God ministering to the believing multitude in regards to the apostles.

As it is: the apostles did not give up anything and laid it down at their own feet.

This is another example of looking to validate another supernatural phenomenon be assuming by what was written and misapplying what was written that one can have the Holy Spirit fall on them again just because a present day believer had experienced something supernatural, believing every spirit that falls on them to be of God.

And yet it has been given as a line of discernment that greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. One cannot receive again what you had already received otherwise: that would makie God the Father look like He gave a stone instead of bread: or a serpent instead of a fish: where one would need to ask for the Holy Spirit again.

Due to the length of this post: I shall address the other reference God be willing in the next post.

 

[Rageprophet]

I speak in tongues, yet I do not have the gift of tongues, I also do not pray in tongues whilst I would be praying for someone I pray in tongues when I am pouring out my heart to God by myself. I never asked for tongues they just happened I do not feel guilty or mislead when I speak in tongues I feel like I am speaking unfiltered from my heart to God I am certain that if God did not like my offering he would assuredly let me know as he has done in numerous other places in my life where I have stumbled into folly, yet he does not and accepts my praises and admiration to him as well as the deepest most sincere emotions of my heart.

Now that said you continue on your path and forbid the speaking of tongues and try to strip people of the things God has given to them but be warned I will not give them up to you for I have been given this by God and no man can take that away. I do not speak in tongues to give signs or glorify myself so your assumptions of this are quite wrong and show a profound lack of understanding on the matter. I for one will continue to speak with God as the Spirit gives me utternace from the deepest parts of my heart because sometimes I just want to praise God and my words fail me so the spirit helps me and you will not take that from me.



Afterthought - I know I probably should have put this in the tongues post but I just keep reading all over the place this attack on tongues and how people that do it are mislead and I just get tired of it so thats why I dropped it here.

 

[Enow]

There "appears" to be a second filling of the Holy Spirit in Acts4:8 & 31 (context ch4:1-31, subjects = Jerusalem congregation who already received the HS in Acts 2) & again in Acts13:52 (context 13:44-52, subjects=Paul & Barnabus with Paul receiving the HS in Acts9 ?).

Looking forward to your comments.

Hi Saltwater:

Sorry for forgetting about saluting you earlier:

Incidentally: I do not believe the Jerusalem congregation that had received the HS was of the multitude of new believers: the 5,000 in Acts 4.

Now for the next reference:

Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 50But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium. 52And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

In light of the current errant belief of this OP, what would be the point for the disciples to be filled with the Holy Spirit again if they were leaving?

You do know that they have a word for "again", right? It does not say that they were filled with joy and with the Holy Ghost again.

Testifying that the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Ghost is not testifying that another supernatural phenomenon had occurred.

After the Lord has done such a successful ministry among the Gentiles and being so rebuffed by the religious leaders: can we see the necessity for the readers and the babes in Christ to know that just because they got kicked out: God was still with them by reporting that they were filled with the Holy Ghost, and that they were undaunted, trusting that Jesus is Lord in His sovereignty and thus why they were filled with joy as they left the city?

Considering that they had just shaken the dust of their feet against them: I would believe that the following verse was to testify that they were not angry nor harbouring any of the works of the flesh and thus being filled with joy and with the Holy Ghost testified to that, setting the examples for the readers of Acts.

 

[Enow]

I speak in tongues, yet I do not have the gift of tongues, I also do not pray in tongues whilst I would be praying for someone I pray in tongues when I am pouring out my heart to God by myself. I never asked for tongues they just happened I do not feel guilty or mislead when I speak in tongues I feel like I am speaking unfiltered from my heart to God I am certain that if God did not like my offering he would assuredly let me know as he has done in numerous other places in my life where I have stumbled into folly, yet he does not and accepts my praises and admiration to him as well as the deepest most sincere emotions of my heart.

The manifestations of the Spirit are given to profit withal: for the edification of the body. Paul never endorsed tongues as a stand alone gift but needing to be interpreted even for the tongue speaker as Paul himself declared it was unfruitful even to himself.

1 Corinthians 14:13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul made it clear that the tongues he was talking about thruout the entire chapter is not a prayer language at all.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

That is why believers are not to believe every spirit: they are not to go with the flow ehenever these spirits come over them.

Now that said you continue on your path and forbid the speaking of tongues and try to strip people of the things God has given to them but be warned I will not give them up to you for I have been given this by God and no man can take that away. I do not speak in tongues to give signs or glorify myself so your assumptions of this are quite wrong and show a profound lack of understanding on the matter. I for one will continue to speak with God as the Spirit gives me utternace from the deepest parts of my heart because sometimes I just want to praise God and my words fail me so the spirit helps me and you will not take that from me.

I doubt I can stop anyone from speaking in tongues. Only God can minister by giving pause to what He would have me say unto you so that you would take the matter to Jesus in prayer.

Do consider the words of Jesus regarding a thief:

John 10:7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:

All those that come inbetween us and Jesus is a thief. The Holy Spirit dwells within us and is not the Mediator between us and Jesus or the Father.

New age channelers & American Indians have spirit guides: wizards and voodooists speak in a prayer language. How can God call them out if believers are doing the same kind of babbling tongues that comes with no interpretation?

This is Christianity: not Spirituanity. Jesus is our Mediator: He is called the Bridegroom as we are to be intimate with God through Jesus Christ. After all: we are married to Jesus Christ. The indwelling Holy Spirit is still pointing us to relate to God through the Son: not by way of the rudiment of the world of using the Spirit as a mediator nor as a means of communicating with God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Afterthought - I know I probably should have put this in the tongues post but I just keep reading all over the place this attack on tongues and how people that do it are mislead and I just get tired of it so thats why I dropped it here.

Scripture refutes preaching another Holy Spirit to receive to get these tongues. I would not have a problem with tongues if it wasn't for this preaching. It is because of supernatural phenomenon of something coming over them that believers find themselves speaking in tongues with no interpretation that they have shifted from their relationship with the Bridegroom to relating to God by another way, implying that other believers need to seek after the Holy Spirit to get these tongues: that is the same thing as an adulterous generation seeking after a sign which is the result of a spirit of error for believers to believe every spirit.

 

[Enow]

Believers that value their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ will continue to rest in Him by His grace and by His help, knowing that they need not heed any other calling nor another invitation, let alone seek after a sign when they do not need tongues to relate to God through Jesus Christ.

We are His disciples if we continue in His words. Even I am praying that Jesus helps me with that. I do not need tongues to ask that. I'd rather know for sure that I had asked that and give Him thanks as He is helping me to follow Him.

Those that have gone astray: the Lord will bring them back to their first love: sooner or later: even if it means they get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event. He will lose none, but not every believer will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

While the doors to the Marriage Supper is open: let every one that name the name of Christ depart from iniquity so that they can be that vessel unto honour in His House by the grace of God and the help from our Good Shepherd in laying aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us in running this race. Narrowing the way back to the Son is what the Holy Spirit in us would lead us to do as the scripture confirms so as to avoid false spirits as well as false prophets.

Jesus is the way to God the Father: not by way of the "spirit". The work of iniquity of broadening the way will result in Him saying that I never knew you.

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

2 Timothy 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Saltwater]

Hello Enow,

I agree with your comments re Acts 4 & Acts 13.

Acts 4 = "Incidentally: I do not believe the Jerusalem congregation that had received the HS was of the multitude of new believers: the 5,000 in Acts 4."

Good point - it is not clear whether any of the congregation from Acts 2 were present in the Acts 4 discourse so it is best to not read things into the chapter & make presumptions.

Acts 13 "Considering that they had just shaken the dust of their feet against them: I would believe that the following verse was to testify that they were not angry nor harbouring any of the works of the flesh and thus being filled with joy and with the Holy Ghost testified to that, setting the examples for the readers of Acts."

An interesting topic is the link between Christians suffering for their faith & the reassuring presence of the Holy Spirit in such circumstances - eg. the Apostle Paul's experiences mentioned in 2Cor6:3-11

Thanks for the quick, concise & polite reply.

may God bless you

 

[Rageprophet]

I doubt I can stop anyone from speaking in tongues

I can see however that will not stop you from trying though or from calling those who do decieved sign seekers or followers of false Gods or from twisting the words of perfect clarity that I just spoke into some sort of sin so you can cast down more judgements. I explained how when and why I would speak in tongues and you immediately made up your own interpertation of what I just said just as you have done with the scripture to bend it to your own views to cast doubt and judgements down onto everyone who does not agree with you let me simply say this I would never say to anyone who does not speak in tongues that they are in sin or that I am better than they are because I do but it seems that is not the case from the other side. I sit here and read back and forth back and forth this scripture says its ok this one doesn't so I lay out exactly how I do it and with no room for misinterpertation and you immediately say I am in sin for using it in a way I just told you I am not using it in so that right there shows me that no matter what scripture no matter what eveidence you will not accept this so there is no point to engage you any farther in this conversation.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi John,

Just to spice up your study a little bit I recently stumbled on (upon a hunch and then checking the Greek text to confirm) an interesting fact, which is that many of the texts that mention Baptism are coupled with the preposision eis which is often translated 'into' or 'unto', which is a different preposition than en which is translated 'in, by, or with' often. John's Baptism was actually a baptism en water (some say 'in water' is more accurate than 'with water' but with is perfectly allowable as a translation but en still denotes being in something for some duration at least: water in this case). But surprisingly (to me) I discovered that the Greek in Matthew 28:19 uses eis instead of en "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in (eis) the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" thus it should actually read "unto" or "into" the name of.... This is actually the same Greek construction using a form of baptizo with eis as in Acts 8:16; Acts 19:5, Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; 10:2; 12:13; and Galatians 3:27.

Here is a commonly accepted diagram of the function of the different Greek prepositions found in Zondervan's Basics of Biblical Greek by William Mounce (note that en is static & within the circle, while eis goes into the circle from outside of it, and dia goes through it, for comparison):

View attachment 2095

I think the pattern for eis being used in the passages that refer to water baptism (from Matthew, Acts, and 1 Cor. 1:13, 15) is actually because the action of baptism is directed to the "name" not the water, thus "into" or "unto" the name - not the water. Similarly the Israelites were baptized "unto" Moses (1 Cor. 10:2) and we believers baptized "into/unto" one body (1 Cor. 12:13). When applied in the a non-literal/non-physical way like in 1 Corinthians 10:2, eis, it is argued, denotes 'unto' (since 'into' makes no 'physical' sense) and that 'baptism' is applied in a sense of "a force of influence which one comes under" - which would have the basic sense of meaning "conformed unto" or "made one unto" Moses rather than a literal picture of dipping a person into another person. I am still trying to sort out all the significance of this but it turned into a much more interesting study of the original Greek than I first intended.

The study I came to share though is actually in the following two links which consider the Greek and from which my above summary was taken. Let me know your thoughts:

1) IN WHAT SENSE ARE WE BAPTISED INTO THE LOCAL CHURCH

2) Baptized into Moses

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Bonairos]

"Show the verse where those that were already believers that had the Holy Spirit but had received the Holy Spirit again in the Book of Acts ( not counting the disciples that were awaiting for the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit at Pentecost) and I will say to you that they were new believers and the assumption is being made that the Holy Spirit fell on those that had already had Him. That is called reading inbetween the lines."

I'm attempting to follow and perhaps misread your challenge (for lack of a better word).

Would Acts 19:1-6 suffice?

I'm not implying they received the Holy Spirit again (in the sense of losing Him), but perhaps received Him in a different dimension? With/for a different purpose (other than being baptized into the Body of Christ)?


Be blessed, Stay blessed, and be Bold!

 

[adelphos]

The manifestations of the Spirit are given to profit withal: for the edification of the body. Paul never endorsed tongues as a stand alone gift but needing to be interpreted even for the tongue speaker as Paul himself declared it was unfruitful even to himself.

1 Corinthians 14:13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

*Does not Scripture itself give examples of speaking in tongues without interpretation?

*Does this passage really declare that Paul was suggesting that tongues always require interpretation? If so, please demonstrate.

Paul made it clear that the tongues he was talking about thruout the entire chapter is not a prayer language at all.

*Does the tenor of this chapter really teach that tongues is not prayer?

That is why believers are not to believe every spirit: they are not to go with the flow ehenever these spirits come over them.

*According to sound hermeneutics, what exactly does it mean when Scripture tells us not to believe every spirit? Is it possible you are mis-using the concept?

I doubt I can stop anyone from speaking in tongues. Only God can minister by giving pause to what He would have me say unto you so that you would take the matter to Jesus in prayer.

*forbid not to speak with tongues (1 Cor. 14:39)

New age channelers & American Indians have spirit guides: wizards and voodooists speak in a prayer language. How can God call them out if believers are doing the same kind of babbling tongues that comes with no interpretation?

*Satan counterfeits everything God does, so this is really moot.

Scripture refutes preaching another Holy Spirit to receive to get these tongues.

*Where exactly does Scripture refute this?

I would not have a problem with tongues if it wasn't for this preaching. It is because of supernatural phenomenon of something coming over them that believers find themselves speaking in tongues with no interpretation that they have shifted from their relationship with the Bridegroom to relating to God by another way, implying that other believers need to seek after the Holy Spirit to get these tongues: that is the same thing as an adulterous generation seeking after a sign which is the result of a spirit of error for believers to believe every spirit.

*Interesting notes, but I didn't see anything that refuted tongues being the evidence of receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Please explain...

Respectfully,

Adelphos