The basic Bible Story

[Cameron]

Quote:
Since according to Matthew 28:19-20, spreading the Gospel is integral to the mission of the Church today just as was modeled in Matthew 10:5, I would say that 10:23 could easily be taken in a futurist sense and that it is not irrefutable proof to either view.


So what does Colossians 1:23 mean?

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
Col 1:26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.

For the original audience in Colossee, they were once separated from God but Christ’s blood bridged the Gap between fallen man and God. And this is the hope that they are to remain steadfast on, which they heard (up in Western Turkey) and which has been proclaimed to furthest extents known to which Paul has become part of and hence this letter derives itself from.

PPs want to take “all creation under heaven†in a wooden-literal sense when it is meant to be a hyperbole describing the far reaches of the earth. To try and connect this to Matthew 24::14 is fallaciously founded. Paul’s statement was a hyperbole and Jesus’ statement is in the context of ultimate times of distress and destruction using all encompassing terms from the perspective of God.

I can't agree on Matthew 10:23 being future to us because Jesus listed the audience by name, the 12 apostles.

Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
I don't think there is much left to the imagination here. It is a chapter that reads off pretty straight forward to me. I don't think it's possible to disassociate the 12 apostles from the story. That being the case it has to be a story from their time.

In isolation in this passage, yes. But Jesus also sends out the 70 and then the entire Church in Matthew 28:19-20. But future, it must be unless you have an explanation for Jesus saying not to go to the Gentiles in Matthew 10 and then He tells them how to act when they go the Gentiles in Matthew 10.

I think the easiest way to get thru to what the basic bible story is to pinpoint the time in history or future when the great tribulation occurs.

The great tribulation is a once in creation event.....

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will

Many things eschology wise are tied to that great tribulation.....

the parousia.........
the revealing of the man of lawlessness........
the resurrection of the dead................

If the preterist angle prevails it becomes
the biblical proof of whether the dead are raised spiritually or physically..
the definitive factor in preterism-futurism.........
the answer to whether there is a pre trib rapture or not.......

Should we put up points for and against past great tribulation?

This is fascinating. So this is where you got the ides that the Rapture / Resurrection might only be spiritual. You do know that this borders on Full-Preterism and that many consider it heresy.

Determining when the Great Tribulation occurs should start somewhat as I laid out in previous posts. He best place to start after considering the core passages is where and how Jesus does it. He provides us the very example we seek in Matthew 24:15.

Secondly, any preterist must come to terms with why the early church fathers said absolutely nothing similar to what modern day preterists say about 70 AD. Those who lived through 70 AD and knew of those who lived through 70 AD did not assign it any special thing, they did not discuss it fulfilling Jesus’ words. Rather they continued to look forward to a future AC and future persecution of the Church. Pretersits scholars do not deny this and that the early church was essentially premillennial up to the 4 and 5th centuries.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic,

On other websites some considered the tribulation to be the work of Satan and the wrath to be the work of God. Is that the general understanding here too?

noble6

Yes Noble, that is the understanding of us here who are of the pre-wrath belief. I asked because I get tripped up by Matthew 24-21 and was looking for clarification as to what Jesus is actually telling us.

Now I usually write in MS Word and copy and paste.

I too Cameron, have learned thwe hard way. :o I usually type out my longer posts in either Word or Notepad. :-D Or at the very least, copy it before I submit it.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

Okay, I don't know much about prewrath.

I guess it still follows tho that the great trib and prewrath are tied together, in that doctrine. It wouild last 7 years and not 3.5.

noble6

 

[Cameron]

The thing that defines the separation of the Trib and God's Wrath are the signs of the sun, moon and stars. The OT shows that these signs immediately preceed God's wrath. The pattern of the OT, is to rescue/preserve the righteous and then God unleashes His wrath. It is the pattern displayed in Matthew 24:29-31 and the 6th Seal through Rev. chapter 7.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

This is fascinating. So this is where you got the ides that the Rapture / Resurrection might only be spiritual. You do know that this borders on Full-Preterism and that many consider it heresy.

Determining when the Great Tribulation occurs should start somewhat as I laid out in previous posts. He best place to start after considering the core passages is where and how Jesus does it. He provides us the very example we seek in Matthew 24:15.

You know the timeframe of the great trib would cover this nicely, either way. If you can point out that the great trib is tommorrow there is no longer any debate here. If the great trib is tomorrow it means none of my interpretation is correct and therefore is not worth spending another minute on. What I would have to do is start sorting out which group of futurists have the right idea.

Simple isn't it? BUT I am right aren't I? A wise man once said," I don't know if believing what the bible says is a waste of time, but I do know that believing what it doesn't say, is."

I'll go over to end times and lay out some verses that favor a past great trib.

noble6

 

[Cameron]

Noblej6,

I think the key is Jesus’ example:

Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Here Jesus connects what He is talking about to what Daniel says about the AOD (abomination of desolation).

Here Jesus also identified the primary passage out of the sprinkled references to the AOD: Daniel 9:25 as part of Daniel 9:24-27

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand…

Therefore, according to Jesus the key to understanding the timing or sense of what He is saying lies in Daniel 9:24-27.

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

To put this passage in large context, we see that Daniel was praying for reconciliation to God for the nation. He read about the decreed 70 years of punishment in Jeremiah and how God was expecting repentance. The people were not repentant and reconciliation would have to wait and Israel was to be punished 7 times more.

These now 70x7 are decreed for Daniels people and city to complete 6 things. What I intend to show is that none of these 6 things has ever been completely filled in a literal and physical sense and that only Jesus’ literal and physical reign on Mt. Zion could do so.

I think before we continue, we should agree what these 6 things are and not settle for what we want them to be. To do so, unless you speak Hebrew already, I would encourage you to verify the word studies I mention below:

1. To finish the transgression
The word translated as “transgression†is peh-shah in Hebrew(1). In this context, it refers to the kind of transgression that transpires at a national level such as a collective moral or religious revolt against God’s laws.

2. To make an end of sins
The word translated as “sins†is khat-tawth(2) and refers to habitual sinfulness, which required the consequences of a penalty and the need for reconciliation and purification. This will be stopped.

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
The iniquity referred to here describes moral evil and perverseness(3) of a people group. The promise is to forgive and to reconcile with Daniel’s people and his city of Jerusalem.

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness (justice)
A new era will come to pass for the Jews and Jerusalem, one that will never end. This word translated as “righteousness,†tseh-dek(4), encompasses the natural moral and legal order of things resulting in perfect justice and equitable prosperity. I can’t help but think of Daniel’s vision in Chapter 2 where God sets up a forever kingdom.
5. To seal up the vision and prophecy
Our phrase “seal up†here is the same Hebrew word translated earlier as “make an end.â€Â(5) At the end of this time, God will “close the books†on outstanding visions, dreams, revelations and prophecies that will be fulfilled, the transactions completed.
6. To anoint the most Holy
This word “anoint†is maw-shak(6 ) in Hebrew. It is related to the word maw-shee-akh,(7) meaning “anointed one†or messiah. It refers to a consecrated king or priest. The “most Holy†(8)refers to a thing, which can be a person, place or thing. One can anoint the Holy of Holies in the Temple just as one can anoint a person such as the Holy One of God, the Messiah.(9) Given the context of the list, either meaning or even both together in an ultimate fulfillment could be understood given the conclusion of a time period resulting in an eternal reality.

(1) Strong’s Number H6588, see Leviticus 16:16, 21, Joshua 24:19, Jeremiah 5:6
(2) Strong’s Number H2403, see Genesis 18:20, Exodus 10:17 (habitual sin) and Exodus 29:36 (resulting in need for an offering or to have a punishment taken away as in the case with Pharaoh in Exodus 10:17)
(3) Strong’s Number H5771 “awvoneâ€Â, perversity, that is (moral) evil, see Genesis 15:16 or 19:15 and Jeremiah 30:14 for it’s application to a nation or city.
(4) Strong’s Number H6664, see Leviticus 19:15, 36 and Jeremiah 11:20
(5) Strong’s Number H2856 “khaw-thamâ€Â, see Isaiah 29:11 and Jeremiah 32:10
(7)Strong’s Number H4899, see Psalm 18:50, Leviticus 4:5
(8) Strong’s Number H6944 ââ‚Å“Kodeshâ€Â, see Exodus 3:5 (place), Exodus 15:11 (God), Exodus 15:13 (God’s dwelling), Exodus 26:33-34 (the Holy of Holies in the tent tabernacle where the ark of the covenant is), Exodus 28:2 (things), Psalm 2:6 (Mt. Zion)
(9) See Exodus 40:9-13, Numbers 35:25, Psalm 89:20

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

Just go ahead and work thru your process of understanding. I'll hopefully follow along as you go thru it. I'll try and get what you are using to reach the conclusions you do. When I get it digested I'll offer my thoughts on interpretation.

As far as meanings of Hebrew words I'm accustomed to taking my meanings from Strong on the website at Blueletterbible.

noble6

 

[Cameron]

As far as meanings of Hebrew words I'm accustomed to taking my meanings from Strong on the website at Blueletterbible.

Why do it online when you can download for free Strong's, BDB and Thayers?
Go to http://www.e-sword.net and download the free Bible software and get all the great dictionaries and lexicons. It's a huge time saver!

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

Hey, thanks, I'll scoot over there and have a look later tonite.

Noble6

 

[Cameron]

Hi Cameron,

Just go ahead and work thru your process of understanding. I'll hopefully follow along as you go thru it. I'll try and get what you are using to reach the conclusions you do. When I get it digested I'll offer my thoughts on interpretation.

As far as meanings of Hebrew words I'm accustomed to taking my meanings from Strong on the website at Blueletterbible.

Sorry, I must have missed this post.

I think its best to first determine whether these 6 things in Daniel 9:24 ave already occured or require a literal fulfiillment based on the previous literal & physcial fulfillments ofthe first two segments of the sequence.

Is there logical justification for looking for a spiritual ultimate fulfimments to a 3 segmented series where the first two are of the same physical category?

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

Daniel 9
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

Here are the six things.

1)finnish transgression
2)put an end to sin
3)atone for wickedness
4)bring in everlasting righteousness
5)to seal up vision
6)anoint the most holy

I would say that these things didn't occur in the 490 years allotted for them to do these things. Therefore the wrath of God was brought to bear on the people who were held responsible. These are the people who this fell on.

Matthew 23
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

So I don't see any reason thiese 6 things have any significance other that that they DIDN'T happen which resulted in the wrath of God being poured out on that generation spoken of there in Matthew 23.

Is there logical justification for looking for a spiritual ultimate fulfimments to a 3 segmented series where the first two are of the same physical category?

There is definately justification for looking for a spiritual fulfillment to many things connected here. However, the 6 things of Daniel 9 never occured because these people chose not to. Therefore, the end of that old covenant came and Jesus brought in the new.

noible6

 

[Cameron]

I would say that these things didn't occur in the 490 years allotted for them to do these things.

So I don't see any reason thiese 6 things have any significance other that that they DIDN'T happen…

However, the 6 things of Daniel 9 never occured because these people chose not to.

I can see that this would be a problem if you believe that Daniel 9:24-27 was a conditional prophecy that would not come to fruition if the recipients were not abiding by the previous OT covenant. It does initially seem to avoid the issues you are no doubt aware of for a preterist when dealing with how the 70 Sevens were fulfilled with Christ’s New Covenant. For one who presupposes that Christ fulfilled the 70 Sevens has some unsavory choice to deal with regarding the clear segments of the 70 Sevens such as when did Christ make a 7-year covenant and was His baptism an abomination? Of if his baptism was the covenant then was His sacrifice an abomination and if even getting past that there is no significant date 3 ½ years later for the ultimate fulfillment of the 70 Sevens. All these are sticky issues for one that has left a futurist application.

And yet the solution you have offered is really not any better than these other troubling choices. For it is clear that the 70 Sevens began and that the first segment came to pass literally as did the second in the most literal sense:

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off …

So with your statement above you in part agree with the futurist assessment that these things did not occur after 490 years, but all did happen as predicted after 483 years with the death of the Messiah. However, unlike many other Preterists, you will not acknowledge the destruction of Jerusalem also predicted in the passages to occur after the second segment of 62:

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

So in this sense you stand in opposition to many in preterism, while futurism understands and sees a gap between the 2nd and 3rd segments due the historical fact that 70 AD is prophesied to be a result of the completion as is the crucifixion almost 40 years earlier. So it could be said that a preterist with this view has the table turned on them and it is the futurist who fights for 70 AD as literal evidence pointing to the string of literal and physical completions requiring the ultimate commensurate response at the end of the entire set of 70 that has yet to come to pass.

Secondly, Daniel 9 gives no hint that this sequence is meant to be a failed prophecy. For that is quite distasteful from the standpoint of inerrancy and that false prophecies bring disrepute to any part of God’s Word, particularly Daniel and his already undisputable accuracy in prophetic prediction. Therefore, the only option available is that the prophecy was conditional upon obedience much like the previous covenant. So this appears to me the arena in which this discussion should continue at the moment; was Daniel’s answer to his prayer a conditional prophecy or covenant? It seems to me that if I have reasoned correctly, that this is an answer you must demonstrate or otherwise drop.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

The above isn't a prophesy it is a directive telling Daniel's group they have this much time to do those things. They didn't do it. Jesus did it but He was under no obligation of 70 sevens.

Also you must be assumiing some other start date than the first year of Darius because that was 530 something BC wasn't it.
The next set of sevens start off from the time of the decree to rebuild but not the first ones. The decree could be any of these.

1. Cyrus 538/537 BC granted return of the Jews from exile and rebuilding of the temple
2. Darius I about 520 BC reaffirmed and expedited the order of Cyrus to rebuild the temple
3. Artaxerxes I 457 BC given to Ezra, re-established the autonomy of Judah
4. Artaxerxes I 445/444 BC to Nehemiah, granted permission to repair Jerusalem

None of the above take us to 2005 so what does it matter? Whatever Daniel was predicting has happened as it was predicted or Daniel wasn't much of a prophet.


You feel the only way Christ can bring this six step deal in is to reign physical from Jerusalem. How about if it is heavenly. How easy is it for Him to put an end to sin there?
As far as the rest of that I just don't see any miracle in it at all. It is just a biblical story of what happened back then and I don't put any real importance to it.

We know what happened as far as the birth of Christ goes and we know how He died. Daniel either predicts that right or he doesn't. I'm not totally convinced that is even what Daniel is getting at.

So this appears to me the arena in which this discussion should continue at the moment; was Daniel’s answer to his prayer a conditional prophecy or covenant?

I'll sure go thru this with you but you will have to lead because as I say I don't see a lot of importance in working with an old prophecy when we have the words of Jesus Himself to develop our interpretaion from.

noble6

 

[Cameron]

So now the discussion is on the context/meaning and relevance of this passage in Daniel. Is it just another OT passage lost in the haze of the Old Covenant?

Let’s start with relevance.

1). Jesus said:
Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

So Jesus makes an issue of it. That Jesus was actually primarily referring to this passage may be suggestive of the admonition “let the reader understand†as seen in close parallel in Daniel 9:25

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand…

And Jesus has commanded to us the following:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…

Matthew 24:15 is part of Christ’s teaching we are to pass on an observe. Matthew 28:19-20 is not for “that generation†only , but every “this generation†since then.

2) Context / meaning:

Israel had lost their “promise land hope†, which was integrally tied into the hope of the coming Redeemer. Isaiah’s prophecies about a child being born named Emanuel, etc were by then almost 200 years old. There was wonder, even with Daniel when God would restore that hope by restoring Israel. So as he was reading in Jeremiah after the transition to the Mede-Persian empire, he understood what Jeremiah had said about the 70 year captivity. He understood that if they repented God would restore.

Daniel’s mind was focused on the near; the restoration of their homeland. God’s answer was focused on the ultimate restoration and the New Covenant that Jeremiah had spoken of 70 years earlier. So what is Daniel’s 70 Sevens? A directive, a conditional prophecy or an answer to prayer or some combo?

Dan 9:21 while I was praying, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the first vision, came to me in my extreme weariness, about the time of the evening offering.
Dan 9:22 He gave me this explanation: "Daniel, I've come now to give you understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your petitions an answer went out, and I have come to give it, for you are treasured by God. So consider the message and understand the vision:

Three times Daniel is charged to “understandâ€Â. In verse 22, 23 and 25.

Dan 9:24

(BBE) Seventy weeks have been fixed
(Bishops) Seuetie weekes are determined
(CEV) God has decided that for seventy weeks
(Darby) Seventy weeks are apportioned out
(DRB) Seventy weeks are shortened upon
(ESV) "Seventy weeks are decreed about
(Geneva) Seuentie weekes are determined
(GNB) "Seven times seventy years is the length of time God has set for
(GW) "Seventy sets of seven time periods have been assigned for
(HCSB) Seventy weeks are decreed about
(JPS) Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.
(KJV+) Seventy7657 weeks7620 are determined2852 upon5921
(MSG) "'Seventy sevens are set for
(NET) "Seventy weeks56 have been determined concerning your

H2852 חתך châthak khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.

K&D’s OT Hebrew commentary : “Then, in answer to his supplication, Daniel received the answer, seventy שׁבעים must pass before the full working out of the deliverance.â€Â

Al Barnes repeats this idea “The passage may be properly divided into two parts. The first, in Dan_9:24, contains a “general†statement of what would occur in the time specified - the seventy weeks; the second, Dan_9:25-27, contains a “particular†statement of the manner in which that would be accomplished.â€Â

There is no hint in the phrasing of this answer to be “directive†and no hint that this is in any way conditional. I would suggest that the explanation you are offering is not the natural and customary understanding of the passage. That it is prophetic and an answer to prayer is no doubt. As far as I‘m concerned, if we are to avoid a free-for-all on Bible meaning and if language and context has value we only have two choices:

1) It is a prophecy that is in err.
2) It is a prophecy awaiting completion.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

When are you considering this time of 70 sevens/weeks/whatever starts? I take it it was in the first year of Darius the Mede as perverse 1. I use these verses to determine that.

1 In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus(a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom- 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

So Daniel was saying this prayer in that year.

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice.

So here we are still in the first year of Darius.

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

There was 70 weeks or 70 sevens given for those peopl to do these 6 things. That time limit would be up either a year and abit after the first year of Darius or 490 years after the first year of Darius. Neither of which had mu8ch to do with anything going on in the life of Jesus Cjrist.

There is no prophecy there that I can see. I don't consider that these things WOULD happen before the seventy sevens, just that they had better or these people would be in for some correction.

Matthew 24 makes a statement:

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

And I have shown you that by the reverse of the sequence of events from the coming backwards in Luke 21 that this is armies surrounding Jerusalem.

You bring up Matthew 28:19,20.

There is two verses I can't explain. The KJV goes like this:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The end of the world (aion) according to the KJV is here:
Hebrews 9
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

By that He is saying He will only be with them until the time of the cross, which isn't how I would have thought He would word it

Here from your explanation of this is:

Israel had lost their “promise land hope†, which was integrally tied into the hope of the coming Redeemer

I understand that as being null and void. Israel neve kept their end of the bargain and God scrapped the whole deal. Hebrews 8. Jesus was the new covenant.
I don't see that Israel is going to be restored to any kingdom of importance. That covenant is ded and replaced.

\1) It is a prophecy that is in err.
2) It is a prophecy awaiting completion.

Sorry, I can't see it being any more than a statment telling those people do do those 6 things. They didnt . Then history unfolded as it did.

I gues the first question from me is when did that 70 sevens start?

noble6

 

[Vic C.]

Hello. I am moving this thread to it's rightful place... End Times. :-D I am leaving a 'shadow' copy of this thread right here as a pointer.

See ya in the End Times Forum. 8-)

 

[Cameron]

As you have correctly noted there are approximately four choices for the decree. I say approximately because two of the four are recapitulations of the first decree by Darius. The only one that actually mentions the city is the last one. So in essence there are two primary decrees; that of 538/537BC “the Temple†(Ezra 1 & end of 2 Chronicles 36) and that of 445/444 BC “the city†(Nehemiah 2). That both are related to each other is without doubt for the Temple is in the city.

Daniels 70 Sevens name two important criteria that the last one fulfills perfectly.

1) For Daniel’s city

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed … your holy city,…

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem …

2) Rebuilt in times of trouble

Dan 9:25 … it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Neh 4:16 From that day on, half of my servants worked on construction, and half held the spears, shields, bows, and coats of mail. And the leaders stood behind the whole house of Judah,

Therefore, at the very least, we know that the last decree of Nehemiah 2 finally fulfilled the specified criteria set forth in Daniel 9:25. But that does not mean the first is also with out any merit. Like there is a near and far application I find it interesting that there is the possibility of a near/far application for the first 69 Sevens that I continue to explore for the 1st one of Ezra 1 in 538/7 BC.

For the key of the 1st decree is that it finds its occurrence related to the transition of the Empires that Daniel witnessed in chapters 2 and 7 of Daniel. It was in the first year of the 2nd Empire that Daniel received the 1st one in the context of a new king and kingdom. That this 1st decree was directed to the Temple and not the city showed in fact, that it was meant to be a type of a future yet related decree. And it is not surprising that the first 69 of these Sevens ends the very year that the fourth Empire, Rome, marches into Jerusalem to take control! That there is a gap is without question if it is not a coincidence of math. And when it comes to the Bible, I do not believe in coincidences.

The last decree of 445/444 BC fits all the specified criteria perfectly and finds its 69th ( 7th + 62nd ) set fulfilled in 32 AD just “coincidentally†at the exact time required to perfectly fulfill:

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off

Once again, in the plain sense a gap is demanded by the sequence. Why? Because all prior segments were fulfilled literally and physically. Therefore, the events of the midpoint of the last Seven and the completion of the entire sequence must also correspond in like type. Logic is a creation of our orderly God, and logical sequence is one of its simple principles that few are willing to apparently embrace. One cannot pick and choose selectively which parts to believe and what type of fulfillment to expect. One can not speak of 1260 or 1290 days of desolation even in Luke 21:20 without speaking of the final Seven and what it means. It is not up to us to pick and choose, but only to accept that God intend to restore His relation ship with the Jews and Jerusalem literally and physically after a gap that includes its destruction.

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks,… shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Note: that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is mentioned before any discussion of the events of the last 7 are discussed. It is not a retelling like 9:25-27 is of 9:24, because it is already a retelling in process of laying out specific events of the sequence.

Therefore, like it or not, logically there is no choice but to expect literal fulfillments; logically no choice but to accept a gap hinted at already in 9:26 with the destruction of Jerusalem coming 38 years later and included as part of the fulfillment of the 69th. Logically there is no hint of any conditions present in God’s response to Daniel. For it is without question that the 70 Sevens are ultimately about Restoration rather than destruction.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Cameron,

You have missed the point here.

Follow thru where the seventy sevens is.

1 In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus

That is the time in history when Daniel was praying as it says in verse 3 below.

3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

4 I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:
"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 "Lord, you are righteous, ...........................

The chapter goes on describing what Daniel says in that prayer..........

17 "Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name."

Notice verse 20. It refers back to that same prayer that was said in the first year of Darius. There is nothing dating the prayer to the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, that is separate and apart and starts in verse 25.


20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

THERE, that is the seventy sevens and it is to be taken from the first year of Darius which is somewhere aroud 538??/I don't know, these things don't interest me. It says they ARE decreed not decreed from the decree to rebuild. I would think this may actually only mean 70 actual weeks anyway, however there is that possibility of the seven referrin to the six yers of continuous cropping and then the seventh as fallow to rejuvinate the soil. No mater in either case the time i up before Christ is even born.

Then Gabriel outlines the sixty nine sevens............this is tied to the decree that was about the temple being rebuilt.
25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

So first you are asking me to base a religious belief on something that can't possibly tie in to the time of Christ on earth in the first place. Those 490 years, if that is what is meant by God , is over in 40BC?????What significance is that? What has that got to do with anything? If it was a strict prophecyit failed. It didn't happen and Christ wasn't born yet to play any literal part in that.

Then you want me to see this gap which isn't written in scripture and you already have incorrectly went thru half of Daniels words with the wrong interopretation.

Like where is the seventeth seven in that last bit. I see 62 and 7 where is the extra one?

I don't get into OT prophecies much because I prefer to take the word from the conversations of Jesus Himself. Therefore , I don't often dig into the deeper meaning of the lesser prophets. BUT this is how I see it so far.

noble6

 

[Vic C.]

I don't get into OT prophecies much because I prefer to take the word from the conversations of Jesus Himself. Therefore , I don't often dig into the deeper meaning of the lesser prophets. BUT this is how I see it so far.

Hi noble,

Lets not forget what Jesus had IS our OT. Keep digging my friend; there's plenty of treasure to be found in the OT.

Vic

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

You mentioned the treasure to be found in the OT.

Well, yes, I guess there is. I normally just use it to refernce back to certain stories in the new testamnet. I have committed very little OT to memory, so it involves a long and laborious lookup processs, maybe that is why I don't go there much.....lazy.

I have heard that Judaism and Islam also will use the OT. I know nothing about those and womdered if you know if this is right or not. Or anybody?

noble6