Bible Study The Beasts.

[Douglas Summers]

In Chapter's 12,13, and 17 of The Revelation of Jesus Christ is given the identity of the Beast by their influence in world affairs. (not who they are by any particular name, but what they represent). Chapter 12 tells of the persecution of the Jew in the Tribulation. Chapter 12 is not about the Gentile, but the Jew only at this point. Chapter 13 starts to warn about the first beast who rises up out of the sea of mankind and a prophetic description of his place in Gentile dominated world affairs.
A veiled description by prophetic symbols: Seven heads; ten horns; ten crowns on the ten horns; with the name of blasphemy. He looked like a leopard; with feet like a bear; and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon (Satan 12: 3-4) gave him his power, his throne and great authority. (compare with Rev. 13: 1 with 17: 12 ten kings). It is both a person and a form of civil Gentile government. ( the revived Roman Empire). This is the last world supremacy in the same state that Daniel saw it in (Daniel 7: 8)

Rev. 13: 2 is also the symbolic beast in (Dan. 7: 4-6). This is proof of identity, that Daniel and John were writing of the same subject. Remember Christ warning in (Matt. 24: 15) comparing Christ prophecy with Daniels prophecy and Johns writing. The Tribulation is primarily the persecution of the Jew (though many will be saved by the preaching of the 144,000 Paul's preaching the Gospel.) Notice what Christ says happens immediately after those days of (The Great Tribulation) (Matt. 24: 29-31) The return of Christ upon the earth (second coming).. In Matthew 25 :31-46 is the judgment of the Gentiles on how they treated the Jew. This is at Christ second coming. Notice how He treats the Gentiles who had mercy on the Jews that were persecuted during the tribulation. He does not call them brethren or saints, but righteous, Remember, the tribulation is the Gentile nations treatment of the Jew, whom Christ warned about beforehand.

To advance on (Rev. 13: 2-3) The "the head that was wounded to death was the head of the gentile nations at that time was the Roman Imperial form of government. The ancient Roman Empire never ceased to exist as a civil government, It was the whole Roman Empire as one that ceased to exist. The head was wounded to death, what we are seeing is a revision of the Imperial form of government (one who rules over all nations) under the "little horn" as emperor. (the beast in verses 2 and 3 is the empire in it's divided form). In verses 3-8 is the Emperor.

This we will continue as we dissolve this information.

 

[dianegcook]

Rev.12:17
And the Dragon was worth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev.11:15
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign 4ever.
Rev.11:18
And the nation's were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants, the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy Name, small and great, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Jim Parker]

In Chapter's 12,13, and 17 of The Revelation of Jesus Christ is given the identity of the Beast by their influence in world affairs. (not who they are by any particular name, but what they represent). Chapter 12 tells of the persecution of the Jew in the Tribulation. Chapter 12 is not about the Gentile, but the Jew only at this point. Chapter 13 starts to warn about the first beast who rises up out of the sea of mankind and a prophetic description of his place in Gentile dominated world affairs.
A veiled description by prophetic symbols: Seven heads; ten horns; ten crowns on the ten horns; with the name of blasphemy. He looked like a leopard; with feet like a bear; and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon (Satan 12: 3-4) gave him his power, his throne and great authority. (compare with Rev. 13: 1 with 17: 12 ten kings). It is both a person and a form of civil Gentile government. ( the revived Roman Empire). This is the last world supremacy in the same state that Daniel saw it in (Daniel 7: 8)

Rev. 13: 2 is also the symbolic beast in (Dan. 7: 4-6). This is proof of identity, that Daniel and John were writing of the same subject. Remember Christ warning in (Matt. 24: 15) comparing Christ prophecy with Daniels prophecy and Johns writing. The Tribulation is primarily the persecution of the Jew (though many will be saved by the preaching of the 144,000 Paul's preaching the Gospel.) Notice what Christ says happens immediately after those days of (The Great Tribulation) (Matt. 24: 29-31) The return of Christ upon the earth (second coming).. In Matthew 25 :31-46 is the judgment of the Gentiles on how they treated the Jew. This is at Christ second coming. Notice how He treats the Gentiles who had mercy on the Jews that were persecuted during the tribulation. He does not call them brethren or saints, but righteous, Remember, the tribulation is the Gentile nations treatment of the Jew, whom Christ warned about beforehand.

To advance on (Rev. 13: 2-3) The "the head that was wounded to death was the head of the gentile nations at that time was the Roman Imperial form of government. The ancient Roman Empire never ceased to exist as a civil government, It was the whole Roman Empire as one that ceased to exist. The head was wounded to death, what we are seeing is a revision of the Imperial form of government (one who rules over all nations) under the "little horn" as emperor. (the beast in verses 2 and 3 is the empire in it's divided form). In verses 3-8 is the Emperor.

This we will continue as we dissolve this information.

I don't pay much attention to people's interpretations of the Revelation.

The important thing is to be found faithful when Christ returns. It won't matter which beast is doing what to whom if we're found faithful.

Can I get an "amen"?

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

I don't pay much attention to people's interpretations of the Revelation.

The important thing is to be found faithful when Christ returns. It won't matter which beast is doing what to whom if we're found faithful.

Can I get an "amen"?

iakov the fool

Believing through faith, Amen. The Post "Beast" is not an interpretation. It is Scriptured. And if you don't pay much attention to it, how would you know if it is an interpretation? We would do well to study it before we discredit it.

 

[reba]

dont go personal .. admin

 

[Jim Parker]

Believing through faith, Amen. The Post "Beast" is not an interpretation. It is Scriptured. And if you don't pay much attention to it, how would you know if it is an interpretation? We would do well to study it before we discredit it.

I know it's an interpretation because of the following statement which appears at the beginning of the post: "Chapter 12 tells of the persecution of the Jew in the Tribulation. Chapter 12 is not about the Gentile, but the Jew only at this point."

Chapter 12 is not about "the persecution of the Jew." It's about the devil's attack on the Church.

So, not only is it an interpretation, it's a poor one. And, as a sample of what's to follow, it indicates to me that I don't need to waste my time.

So, I'll focus on being faithful and let other people make up stuff and say, "It's right there in the Revelation."

слава тебе , мой бог!

Have a great year!

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

It is not personal reba, to denigrate a Scriptural lesson without a valid discussion should be a requirement here. It is no secret that Jim is anti-Douglas. My post to him was sound advice that I would expect any member would appreciate (a sound discussion). My post on Revelation was a Bible study, not a debate, and my post to Jim was christian advice to read and STUDY the post before passing it off as an opinion. Jim defends his religion, I'am defending the Faith. Some people just do not know the difference.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I tink lion is Hitler, bear is Stalin, leopard is kamikaze from Asia (from Japan and terrorists after). And the beast 4 will arrive (writen in book of Daniel). Into world in apostasia like Sodom and Egypt (Apocalypse ch 11).

After two beasts in Apocalypse: one is the pharisean with horns of lamb but voice of dragon. And he like Hitler (new Judas Iscariot, even for apostles was difficult to reconize satan in Judas betrayer) build second beast - machine of persecution and war.

And the army of beast in Humanity is what is worse in 7 churches (in all humanity by me) of Apocalypse:

Jezebel - massonic loge;

Nicolaitans - people like inquisition, army for false spiritual purpose, pedophilic priests and more in this sens;

Communion of "false jews" - "synagogue of satan" in text of Revelation of John - not the synagogue of Jews (Paul pray for), but all pharisean persons of different cultures who pervert the sens of cultures, confessions and religions for missunderstanding of peoples and own autority.

And after some persons are not in this army, but are just lukewarm and not alive in heart and resist not.

Hi Dimitryet, But that is not what the Scriptures reveal. The beast and the statue in Daniel define what the dreams are, and it lines up with Chapter 13 and 17 in Revelation. Study it carefully.

 

[reba]

this post shows how personal it is...

It is not personal reba, to denigrate a Scriptural lesson without a valid discussion should be a requirement here. It is no secret that Jim is anti-Douglas. My post to him was sound advice that I would expect any member would appreciate (a sound discussion). My post on Revelation was a Bible study, not a debate, and my post to Jim was christian advice to read and STUDY the post before passing it off as an opinion. Jim defends his religion, I'am defending the Faith. Some people just do not know the difference.

Differing views are allowed here at CFnet... if they fall under the guidelines of the TOS and SOF... We need to show respect to this site and each other.. while posting different views on many topics..
One members views do not carry more weight then anothers.... we all believe we are 'correct' or we wouldn't be posting. .. ADMIN
One of my favorite points of the TOS this has taught me a lot
2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
now back to topic

 

[Jim Parker]

It is not personal reba, to denigrate a Scriptural lesson without a valid discussion should be a requirement here.

I didn't denigrate scripture. I rejected your interpretation. Your understanding of scripture is not scripture itself.

My post on Revelation was a Bible study, not a debate

I wasn't debating. I was rejecting your major premise. Having done so, there was no reason to proceed to minor premises based on the error of the major premise. If I told you the moon was green cheese and them wanted to tell you all about my plans on how to harvest it would you feel compelled to listen? I certainly hope not!

my post to Jim was christian advice to read and STUDY the post before passing it off as an opinion.

I have read and studied (that's how I earned my Masters in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary) and I continue to do so.

Jim defends his religion, I'am defending the Faith.

That is another of your opinions. I believe that I defend "the Faith" just as you believe you do. If you can't handle someone having a different opinion, then maybe you should not speak in public where adults might not agree with you and then have the unmitigated gall to actually say so. Perhaps you might seek out and find a "safe place" for yourself where no one is allowed to say anything that might upset you

Or you might consider being open to an adult discussion of different views. We just might both learn something.

However, I do apologize for offending you. I really didn't need to say anything. My bad.

Have a great day.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

My post on Revelation was a Bible study

Great. Here's my take on Rev 12 if you're interested.

Revelation Chapter 12 Analysis (RSV)

The Sign of the Woman

1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

The woman is a radiant bride, clothed in splendor. She is the antithesis of the harlot of chapter 17.
The moon under her feet indicates a preeminent role over creation.
She wears a crown; she is a queen.
The 12 stars in her crown may represent the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 apostles of the Church, the true Israel who are circumcised in heart.

The Sign of the Dragon

3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth;

The dragon is Satan who has great intelligence, power, and authority.
He has taken a third of the angels under his authority.
He is poised to destroy the child as soon as it is born. This is reminiscent of Herod’s attempt to murder Jesus.

The Woman and Her Male Child

5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The male child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron and who was caught up to the throne of God is Christ. That information identifies the woman as His mother, Mary.

The War in Heaven

7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven onto the earth where he is the deceiver of mankind.

The Voice in Heaven

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

The voice declares that Satan is conquered by the blood of the lamb (Christ’s death and resurrection) and the testimony of the brethren.

The Dragon Pursues the Woman and Her Child

13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth.

Satan first attempts to destroy the woman but cannot.

The Dragon and the Woman’s Offspring

17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.

The dragon makes war on “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”. That identifies Satan’s enemies as the Church.
The Church is referred to as “the rest of her offspring.” That indicates that Mary is both the mother of God the Word made flesh (Jesus Christ) and of His brethren, the Church. (Ro 8:29; Gal 4:4-5)

(18) And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Some translations place verse 18 at 13:1 and some combine it with verse 17.

 

[Sinthesis]

I don't pay much attention to people's interpretations of the Revelation.

The important thing is to be found faithful when Christ returns. It won't matter which beast is doing what to whom if we're found faithful.

Can I get an "amen"?

iakov the fool

For nearly two thousand years that has meant for Christians to be found faithful when Christ comes to collect them personally at the end of their earthly lives. Whatever eschatological beliefs Christians held, right or wrong, have never been of any consequence to at least this point in history.

 

[Jim Parker]

For nearly two thousand years that has meant for Christians to be found faithful when Christ comes to collect them personally at the end of their earthly lives. Whatever eschatological beliefs Christians held, right or wrong, have never been of any consequence to at least this point in history.

Jesus' comment at Luke 18:8 is considered to be in reference to His second coming rather than the end of each individual life. There is no teaching in scripture that "Christ comes to collect them personally at the end of their earthly lives."

iakov the fool

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus' comment at Luke 18:8 is considered to be in reference to His second coming rather than the end of each individual life.

I don't see the relevance of Luke 18:8 to my post.

There is no teaching in scripture that "Christ comes to collect them personally at the end of their earthly lives."

It emerges from scripture when reconciling many other passages. For example:

Jhn 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't see the relevance of Luke 18:8 to my post.

Yeah. I see that.

It emerges from scripture when reconciling many other passages. For example:

Jhn 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

Uh, no, it doesn't. Those verses say nothing to support the notion that "Christ comes to collect them personally at the end of their earthly lives." They do not even address the idea.

iakov the fool

 

[Sinthesis]

Yeah. I see that.



Uh, no, it doesn't. Those verses say nothing to support the notion that "Christ comes to collect them personally at the end of their earthly lives." They do not even address the idea.

iakov the fool

We disagree.

 

[Jim Parker]

We disagree.

And that's OK.

iakov the fool