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The CGM & Purpose Driven Church VERSUS The Bible

Normally Dave, I would frown upon such a long post, but I just read through most of it and it is worth reading for sure.
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LOL, I would have chopped it down, but I couldn't find anything insignificant to chop out of it. Plus people wanted actual quotes of Warren.

From the link I provided called "Book Review: The Purpose Driven Church"

I think this is important to note...

fundamentalism and separation: Rick Warren's distaste for fundamentalism is expressed subtly, yet distinctly. On page 236 he writes, "Must we choose between liberalism and legalism? Is there a third alternative to imitation and isolation?" Note what he considers to be the opposite of liberalism -- legalism. The opposite of liberalism and modernism is in reality, fundamentalism! Warren knows that, but avoids using the term. Note how he refers to the doctrine of separation -- isolation! After asking if we must choose between the liberals or the fundamentalists (which he calls legalists), he offers a third alternative -- a new (?) method. Consider his words: "The strategy of Jesus is the antidote to both extremes: infiltration!" His words sound strangely like a quote from Dr. Harold Ockenga, the father of New Evangelicalism: "The New Evangelicalism has changed its strategy from one of separation to one of infiltration." Warren's thinking is thoroughly New Evangelical.
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It's been my experience that people generally ignore or simply miss making a distinction between isolation (which is the straw man painted to represent fundamentalism), and separation (which is what the Bible teaches). To many they see these two words as the same. We are to stay in the world to be a light, but still be separate. That's a big difference from being in isolation from the world such as the Morman, or the Amish do..
 
Dave's info. is much more balanced than that website's. But one has to remember this is a critic reviewing a book so words like "ridicule" and "mock" are the CRITICS words, not Warren's. Warren is a pastor so I doubt he is thumbing his nose at other preachers and churches. Thus, the critique says "Ridicule of the "old fashioned": Warren mocks churches which "seem to think that the 1950s was the golden age, and they are determined to preserve that era in their church" (p. 55)." This is the critics opinion. If you ask Warren, he might tell you he is just stating what he feels is a fact that the church must move with the times without watering down the gospel. He is not mocking anyone. Modern society is far different than the 1950's. The Amish chose to stay in the 1600's. That does not make them nonChristians but that does limit their outreach to the world. We can choose to stay in the 1950's, but likewise it will limit our outreach as well. I think that is what he is trying to say rather than "mocking" and "ridiculing".

" He encourages young pastors to leave behind that old fashioned church music in favor of jazz or rock or whatever turns your people on!" This is a mis-statement. He does encourage modern CHRISTIAN music. To just say he favors "jazz, rock, or whatever turns people on" is a huge difference. Jazz and rock can be very dirty. He is not calling for allowing that in the church. He is calling for allowing a change of style in CHRISTIAN music to suit today's society. Styles in Christian music have changed throughout the centuries, and it is always frowned upon by some when change comes. I have already stated that I prefer hymns. However, I have talked with a lot of young people and they tell me they can relate to this Christian music more than hymns. Moreover, in my home I am always singing or playing hymns, but it is this "new style" of music, not hymns, that I hear my 7 year old son singing. If this music gets him and others to singing and thinking about God, it can not be bad.

"He encourages churches to imitate the culture and "dress down" for church. On the one hand, he states that "there are those who, fearing irrelevance, foolishly imitate the latest fad and fashion; in their attempt to relate to today's culture, they compromise the message and lose all sense of being set apart." Yet Warren and those who follow his methodology practice exactly what he says is "foolish."


Both have a point here. I have heard people all my life say "going to church is just a fashion show". Some people interpret dressing up like that, and the truth is some people have used church as their runway. I think Warren is sensitive to these feelings and is trying to show that church is about God not fashion. On the other hand, some Christians take God very seriously, respect His holiness, and try to reflect their respect for Him in the way they present themselves to Him when they go to church. I am one of those people, but I still fit in a "Purpose Driven Church". Warren would not exclude or shun me for my choice. However, I certainly understand anyone's feelings that is offended by casual dress.


"Walking into church with food and drink, dressed down as if at the mall, and hearing rock & jazz music may be relevant, but it is NOT much different from the world."

The picture painted here by the critic is a good bit different from reality in my church, and I imagine in many other churches. People are not walking around with food and drinks listening to secular music during a church service. After a church service, we have a coffee time in the cafeteria and I see people praying together and talking about God together after worship. We are not a church where the service ends and everyone rushes home without even knowing each others' names. The church is open all day and people stay and have Christian fellowship.
 
"Warren spent twelve weeks going door to door and surveying the "needs" of the people "

Thank God there are people that care enough to go door to door surveying the needs of people. How many people around you would care enough to do that? Here is a man that saw a dying world around him, and was convicted enough to want to do SOMETHING to reach all these souls that otherwise would just go to hell. Sometimes just building a church and putting out a sign that services are at 10AM on Sunday morning is not enough. Sometimes you do have to meet people where they are at to reach them. An ex-gang member who has found Christ can sometimes make other gang members sit up and listen because he has walked in their shoes. Sometimes a confused, scared young pregnant teenager needs someone to compassionately tell her about the life God has formed in her womb so she does not go out and abort it. Sometimes we do have to get on the level of individual needs. Yet, the critic criticizes Warren for doing this. This critic criticizes Warren for making an earnest and obviously fruitful effort to have a better ministry. I think the critic is wrong.

"Man-centered philosophy: Examples of this philosophy abound throughout the book. His aim is obviously to please men. "

Actually, I think anything Warren were to say, this critic would twist it into something else. His whole theme of the "Purpose Driven Life" is "The purpose of your life is far greater than your own personal fulfillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by His purpose and for His purpose". He goes on to say we can not ask "self-centered questions like What do I want to be? What should I do with my life> What are my goals, my ambitions, my dreams for my future? But focusing on ourselves will never reveal our life's purpose." His whole book is about we must live for and please God rather than ourselves. So the critic has it completely wrong here.

"His goal was not to get as large a crowd as he could. His job was to preach the truth, and he did (vs. 11)"

My pastor's goal is to reach as many people as he can for Christ and to then to train them up to be good soldiers for Christ. He does this by preaching God's Word. I think my pastor shares pastor Warren's goal as well. If you read pastor Warren's book, he is always making Biblical references. In fact, Christianity Today states The Purpose Driven Life "cites over 1,000 verses of Scripture". I don't know what this critic considers "the truth", but I consider "the truth" the Bible and that is the only Truth my pastor preaches.

"Of course our churches will grow faster if we throw out Scriptural standards."

I find it funny that the critic apparently finds "scriptural standards" as traditional music and dress when the Bible never even says the style and tempo of music we must listen to in church and it never says a suit and tie are a standard for being a Christian. So if he wants to twist words and intentions, the same can be done with him by asking "what scripture does he go by? obviously not the Bible"


"Yet, the BIBLE says we are to aim to please God, not men."

That is what Warren says too!

" If we are really concerned about learning how to "build a church," does it not make more sense to study God's Word, rather than studying polls and surveys of popular opinion? "
I find this statement to be unfair. Warren grew up in the church as the son of a minister. So he must have been brought up on scripture to make him want to give his life to serving God. At 16 he met his wife at a "Baptist training meeting for evangelism". So by his teenage years he must have known his calling in life. He lead a school revival and was written up in church papers as "aggressively evangelistic" and "was invited all over the West Coast to speak on how to build a Christian club at your high school."
He got degrees from California Baptist College, Fort Worth's Southwestern Seminary,and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Fuller Theological Seminary. Other honors include the Biblical Preaching Award, and two honorary doctorates. It does not sound to me like he is just some businessman off the street who has never touched a Bible. It sounds to me like he has studied the Bible more than most people and after years of studying, he then surveyed people's needs to know how to better reach them with the Gospel.

Is Pastor Warren a perfect man? No, he has declared he is a sinner in need of a Savior too. Therefore, like any church there are flaws that we can pick out in his church and ministry. I don't deny that. However, I have yet to find any perfect church with absolutely no flaws. My only problem here is people and websites making false claims about him and making him out to be someone he is not. I truly believe he is a brother in Christ as well as a pastor and therefore he deserves the respect of a pastor and brother in Christ. I don't believe in tearing down the family of God unnecessarily.
 
Quote:
"This video should cause all of us who love our Savior to expose this Purpose Driven blasphemy for what it is. The spirit behind the entire movement is anti-Christ. This video perhaps says it better than anything else. The link is here. Watch and weep for what has happened to the American church."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeES0PUN78o


Heres the article that goes with the above...

Purpose-Driven Rapper Crosses the Line to Blasphemy

By Ingrid Schlueter

Reverence in church is in short supply these days. Southcrest Baptist Church in Lubbock, Texas is featuring a Laugh the Night Away event and they're selling tickets to the community. The church of Jesus Christ is no longer interested in all night prayer meetings. All night laugh-ins, however, are big. On Sunday mornings things are little better. The idea of God's awe and transcendence or the idea that our God is a consuming fire, (that's the Bible speaking, not me) is a pretty outdated concept now. Evangelical churches don't have chancels or sanctuaries any longer, they have stages and auditoriums. Rather than worship being viewed as a command performance for one consumer, the Lord of Hosts, worship is now about the adoration of our own bellies, our own preferences and our own adulation. Perhaps this explains a short, three minute rap video that was produced by Minus Media for Rick Warren's 2006 Purpose Driven Worship Conference. Watching it, it is evident that we have entered a new zone in sacrilege within evangelicalism. We are now openly featuring blasphemous mockery in Christ's name and the church is so blinded by disobedience and idolatry that Christians are posting this rap video on their web logs to share with friends. We should be on our faces.

The sneering, mocking expressions and tones of voice in this video have to be witnessed to be understood for what they are. By his speech and manner, the rapper takes the name of the Holy Son of God in vain, but the video contains something more. There is hatred here, hatred for who God is according to the Scriptures. The spirit of this video, ironically shown at a so-called worship conference, is anti-Christ. You cannot know the Lord of glory, the living Word of God and speak of Him in this manner. When St. John the Apostle encountered the risen Lord Jesus Christ, he fell at His feet as dead. The monstrous treatment of the name of God under the guise of worship is evidence of the hearts behind the video. The grimace when the rapper says, ewwww, I feel this divinity... is manifestly evil. The name of the Lord, by whose mercy we live and breath and have our being, is to be revered above all earthly names. Anyone who can listen to the spirit of mockery and ridicule in this video and not feel a holy anger needs to return to the Bible and learn who God really is. He tell us exactly who He is in His Word.

Isaiah 8:13 says, Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.


Jesus Christ said in Luke 12:4-5, And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear. Fear Him, which after He hath killed has power to cast into hell. Yeah, I say unto you, fear Him.

God says in Jeremiah 5:22, Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence?

We are told again and again that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and that the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. There is no fear of God any longer and this explains the terrible desecration of God's name and the ever worsening levels of foolishness from those who claim to follow Him.

This video should cause all of us who love our Savior to expose this Purpose Driven blasphemy for what it is. The spirit behind the entire movement is anti-Christ. This video perhaps says it better than anything else. The link is here. Watch and weep for what has happened to the American church.
 
Vic it deserves, :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

It's almost like a joke it's so mocking. It is a joke IMO.
No wonder Jesus asked 'would he find faith on the earth'??
 
I started to do a little research on Rick Warren.
This is what I have found so far.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/chu ... ml#rwarren

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com ... rticle.htm

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/LTResponds.htm

http://www.christianresearchservice.com ... Search.htm

There is no way all these alligations could be made up. There are simply too many and from differant sources and most of which are quotes from Rick Warren. My feeling is that the evil one is really lovng the PDL book.

Any thoughts on this ?
Oscar
 
"Wow
It seems rick warren is a bad man. "

Here we go again. A critic spends his time criticizing a Pastor Warren while Warren on the other hand spends his time leading thousand to Christ. Yet like some of these other critics, he has no basis for criticism. He just does not like the way Warren evangelizes so he makes up stuff. This critic even says "So where does Jesus factors into Purpose Driven Life? I don't know personally. I haven't read it, nor will I." If he had read what he is criticizing he would know full well where Jesus factors into all of this. PDL book is 100% focused on our purpose is to live for Christ. I really hate it when Christians attack other Christians and do not even have the facts. He goes on and criticizes Warren for a video game although he is aware that a man in Saddleback church resigned over this matter AND the man who resigned even said ""Rick Warren, Saddleback Church, and Purpose Driven Ministries have no connection to the development of the 'Left Behind: Eternal Forces' video game. We have not endorsed the game and have no plans to promote it... In order to avoid any confusion about the fact that Rick Warren, Saddleback Church, and Purpose Driven Ministries have no involvement with Left Behind Games, Mark Carver resigned from the board of advisors on June 5, 2006 and asked that the reference to him be removed from Left Behind Games website." Nevertheless, this man still wants to demonize Warren and leaves people to conclude Warren "is a bad man". If we continue to slaughter our own people like this, it fully confirms what the world has to say "the reason I am not a Christian is because of seeing the way Christians act". Unfortunately Christians have a reputation for doing just this thing, looking for as much bad as they can in others to rip them apart so they can stand self righteously above others and declare how good they are. I do not agree with this. It is not Christian like at all. I think God weeps far more over Christians tearing Christians apart than He does over someone using a drum in the worship service.
As for the way Warren evangelizes, yes, it could be described as a business type approach I suppose, but that is only within the adminstration of a church, and this is what the critic is missing. The method Warren uses is to equip church members to go out and evangelize in small groups. This is where the numbers are coming from, but in order to get people motivated to do this (it is a Biblical principal for Christians to evangelize not just pastors), he does take a business like strategy. What is wrong with that? It is working. His message is the same, repent and follow Jesus. Should we tell businessman to stop witnessing by using business analogies? Should we ask fisherman not to use fisherman analogies? Should we tell all Christians when they witness they must all do it like only one pastor would do (who would they choose as their model, not Jesus since He did not follow the model of His time)? I do not think this model some are wanting is how Jesus did it? Why must there be only one way to witness? Why can we not use our individual God given personalities and talents to witness? 　If Warren has business mind yet a burning to share God with others, why can he not combine the two. Has no one thought that perhaps God has given him this gift? I think there are a lot of splinter picking going on and that is not good.
 
False　and inflammatory information again which seems to be an abundant of when speaking of Pastor Warren. The article by Ingrid Schlueter says "The grimace when the rapper says, ewwww, I feel this divinity... is manifestly evil. " I would not say he was grimacing as she would but I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she can interpret his facial expressions as she likes BUT she must NOT say he said something that he did NOT. He did NOT say "ewwwww, I feel this divinity" as though the divinity is something gross and repulsive. He DID say "ohhhh, I feel this divinity". There is a HUGE difference here. "ohhh" is something we say when we feel awe. Ewww is something we say when something is gross. She deliberately lied and misreported the facts about a pastor and that is much more "manifestly evil" than singing a Christian rap song. If this woman is a reporter she crossed professional and ethical lines for misreporting. There is NO excuse for this.
　　As for the music itself, I have already stated that I like hymns so the music does not impress me, but lying does not impress me either. I really dislike seeing so much misinformation reported as facts. And it is also concerning to me that people so quickly gobble up this information without even checking the facts. Are we really that eager to latch on to misinformation so we can tear our own brother down? What if someone was taking your words and twisting them or just flat out saying things about you that are just complete lies? How would you feel? Is this the way God wants us to be? I think we need to use more caution before so quickly believe the worst in our siblings in Christ.
 
"Southcrest Baptist Church in Lubbock, Texas is featuring a Laugh the Night Away event and they're selling tickets to the community. The church of Jesus Christ is no longer interested in all night prayer meetings."

Bad information again. Her whole article is about proving "The spirit behind the entire movement (PDL) is anti-Christ." so without saying it directly, she is assigning Warren responsibility for this Church's actions. However, this is NOT Saddleback church where Pastor Warren is the pastor. Perhaps Saddleback church has NEVER done this thing which is WHY she could not say Saddleback church did this. Do other people not see what is wrong here? If a friend I went to high school with killed someone, can I be tried for that person's crime because I have been associated with them at some point in time? No! That is not only legally ludicrous but also Biblically，yet that is what Ingrid Schlueter is doing, and it is wrong. As for _"all night prayer meetings", again she has the facts wrong if she wants to suggest PDC does not do this. My church is a PDC and we DO have all night prayer meetings, we DO have a prayer room, we DO have people praying during the service (we have 5 services so people can attend one and pray throughout another), we DO have prayer walking before services begin, we DO have prayer request cards, we DO have a table set up for pｅｏｐｌｅ who need someone to pray with them, we DO have a prayer chain, we DO have sermons on prayer, and we DO pray during the service. Prayer is a HUGE part of the PDC, and yes it is in the name of Jesus NOT Rick Warren.
"but the video contains something more. There is hatred here, hatred for who God is according to the Scriptures" She went too far when she said this. There is not hatred for God in this video. This is another one of her lies which is probably why she had to make up the "ewwww" comment to support this statement. It is false. If she wanted to say it was disrespectful or inappropriate, I could understand her point, but for her to state "there is hatred for who God is" is wrong, and perhaps a little "holy anger " needs to be directed at this woman and others who deliberately spread misinformation about brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
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