The Church and Culture

[tandemcpl]

In the past month, several discussions have been started about whether or not tattoos and piercings are Christian appropriate. There was another thread about the type of worship music being played in some churches today.
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In one of the tattoo threads, Jethro Bodine wrote, “Everything is in the world...but not everything is of the world. Historically, everything about tattoos was of the world. But I know in another generation enough people will naively make it a regular part of being a Christian. Until then, we should not be found guilty of causing someone else to stumble in regard to the practice.â€
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At the time I didn’t agree with Jethro. I thought since tattoos have become common place in society, there should be no issue with Christians getting them; however, I have since changed my mind. I guess I’m just a slow learner.
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This post isn’t intended to be a post on piercings and tattoos, but a thread about churches conforming to the culture (Becoming of the world).<O:p</O:p

Robert Raines, in his book titled New Life in the Church, said the following:
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"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture….
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The church is usually content to grow in physical nature and in favor with its immediate environment….
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The Church becomes the mouthpiece of the people instead of the voice of God. The church, which is meant to be at tension with the customs and traditions of every culture, changes her protective coloring like a chameleon to suit the environment she is in….
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And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church….
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The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."
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I would love to hear your thoughts.
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Be blessed.
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Toby

 

[farouk]

In the past month, several discussions have been started about whether or not tattoos and piercings are Christian appropriate. There was another thread about the type of worship music being played in some churches today.
<o:p In one of the tattoo threads, Jethro Bodine wrote, “Everything is in the world...but not everything is of the world. Historically, everything about tattoos was of the world. But I know in another generation enough people will naively make it a regular part of being a Christian. Until then, we should not be found guilty of causing someone else to stumble in regard to the practice.”
<o:p</o
At the time I didn’t agree with Jethro. I thought since tattoos have become common place in society, there should be no issue with Christians getting them; however, I have since changed my mind. I guess I’m just a slow learner.
<o:p</o
This post isn’t intended to be a post on piercings and tattoos, but a thread about churches conforming to the culture (Becoming of the world).<o:p</o

Robert Raines, in his book titled New Life in the Church, said the following:
<o:p "The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture….
<o:p The church is usually content to grow in physical nature and in favor with its immediate environment….
<o:p The Church becomes the mouthpiece of the people instead of the voice of God. The church, which is meant to be at tension with the customs and traditions of every culture, changes her protective coloring like a chameleon to suit the environment she is in….
<o:p And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church….
<o:p The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."
<o:p I would love to hear your thoughts.
<o:p Be blessed.
<o:p Toby

Toby: Yes, I basically agree with your premise.

Testimony is about pointing people to Christ because he and therefore we are basically different.

And the difference, by His grace, is moral and spiritual.

You mention piercings and tattoos. And I agree they can be over-done. But, then, plenty of preachers' and pastors' wives have pierced ears; and the question of whether a pastor's daughter has single-pierced or double-pierced ears is surely a rather tame matter; nothing to do with doctrine. And some people here report that a faith related tattoo has gotten them into many conversations with people about the Lord.

But yes, it's not by being as similar as possible that testimony is clear; but by letting the moral and spiritual aspects of difference, as they are in Christ, shine forth.

Blessings. </o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o

 

[tandemcpl]

Farouk, thanks for replying.
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I think this goes much deeper than tattoos and piercings.
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The part of the quote that really got my attention is, “The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message.â€
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The other day I read a 2008 poll of 35,000 Americans that showed “57% of evangelical church attendees said they believed many religions can lead to eternal life.â€<O:p</O:p
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I think this is an affect of the church accommodated herself to the cultural climate.
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Be blessed.
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Toby

 

[reba]

Toby your post echos my thoughts... this line you quoted is right on....

"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture….

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[farouk]

Farouk, thanks for replying.
<o:p I think this goes much deeper than tattoos and piercings.
<o:p The part of the quote that really got my attention is, “The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message.”
<o:p The other day I read a 2008 poll of 35,000 Americans that showed “57% of evangelical church attendees said they believed many religions can lead to eternal life.”<o:p
<o:p I think this is an affect of the church accommodated herself to the cultural climate.
<o:p Be blessed.
<o:p Toby</o</o</o</o

Toby:

YW. Paul said to Timothy: 'Give attendance to reading, to doctrine, to exhortation' (1 Timothy 4.13). It's the truth at the heart of the testimony that needs to shine forth. If the truth and doctrine content of people's beliefs are basically near zero, it's a wonder that they are even called Christians.

As far as I'm concerned, people can be tatted and pierced tastefully (especially in moderation) AND be strong Christians, but it's not the tatts and piercings or their absence that contribute to the strength of one's faith.

Blessings. </o</o</o

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think part of the reason Christianity has such broad appeal is that it can adapt itself to many cultural environments. I don't think that's always such a bad thing. Much of what we associate with Christianity--honesty, patience, love, obeying the laws--fits in just about anywhere.

Also, I think its hard to point at one way of being and say "that is Christian." There are Baptists, Presbies, Catholics, Pentecostals...

I'm not saying that we don't accommodate the worst of the culture all too often. I think we do. I'm just saying this isn't exactly a new issue, and making allowances for the culture in which we find ourselves isn't always a good thing.

 

[farouk]

I think part of the reason Christianity has such broad appeal is that it can adapt itself to many cultural environments. I don't think that's always such a bad thing. Much of what we associate with Christianity--honesty, patience, love, obeying the laws--fits in just about anywhere.

Also, I think its hard to point at one way of being and say "that is Christian." There are Baptists, Presbies, Catholics, Pentecostals...

I'm not saying that we don't accommodate the worst of the culture all too often. I think we do. I'm just saying this isn't exactly a new issue, and making allowances for the culture in which we find ourselves isn't always a good thing.

While this thread is about culture, I don't think we can just say that invoking the Virgin and the Saints and looking to the pope as the sole interpreter of the Bible, etc., doesn't matter. There are many clear truths in the Bible.

But there are also many cultures and peoples and languages.

What the OP was talking about, I think, is the moral and spiritual decline within a culture.

 

[tandemcpl]

I think part of the reason Christianity has such broad appeal is that it can adapt itself to many cultural environments.

But should the church adapt itself to the culture or should it change the culture?

Romans 12:2, <SUP></SUP>Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV)<O:p</O:p
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Be blessed.
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Toby

 

[tandemcpl]

What the OP was talking about, I think, is the moral and spiritual decline within a culture.

In essence, that is what I’m getting at; however, the church should be working to reverse the decline instead of adopting it.

Be blessed.

Toby

 

[farouk]

In essence, that is what I’m getting at; however, the church should be working to reverse the decline instead of adopting it.

Be blessed.

Toby

Toby:

I'm not sure how far born again believers can expect to change the world. The next event that believers are heading for is the rapture (1 Thess. 4), when the true church will be taken out of the world, and caught up to be with Christ.

But He changes US by faith, certainly!

Blessings.

 

[tandemcpl]

Toby:

I'm not sure how far born again believers can expect to change the world. The next event that believers are heading for is the rapture (1 Thess. 4), when the true church will be taken out of the world, and caught up to be with Christ.

But He changes US by faith, certainly!

Blessings.

I agree that there is probably not much that can be done to reverse the trend; however, I don’t think that is reason not to try.
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Yes, the next event that believers are heading for is the rapture, and we should try and take as many with us as possible. <O:p</O:p
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Be blessed.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Toby

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought since tattoos have become common place in society, there should be no issue with Christians getting them; however, I have since changed my mind.

I'm impressed by your humble change of mind. And thank you for taking the time to share so that others can benefit from your insights.

"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture…"

Yes, like leaven that eventually works through the whole batch, which has made her proud of the accommodations she has made with the world for the sake of acceptance.

And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church…

It's so true.

I personally have found being different from the world is what solicits the attention that opens the door to effective witness. IMO, we kid ourselves when we make friends with the world by being like them thinking we've landed the gospel with them in some way.

In the hope of attracting the world to the faith we have instead marginalized it by watering it down with our compromises with the world.

The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."

Ironically, peace with the world, in an overall sense, is actually a bad sign, not a good one. When the church no longer cultivates conviction in the world by it's mere existence it's a sign you've compromised to the detriment of the faith.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace..." (reference forthcoming)

 

[tandemcpl]

Jethro,

Thank you for responding, and I agree with everything you said.

Be blessed.

Toby

 

[Adullam]

The church is supposed to influence culture...not be influenced by it. The church is not to work on a cultural level but at a higher level than that.

 

[tandemcpl]

The church is supposed to influence culture...not be influenced by it. The church is not to work on a cultural level but at a higher level than that.

I agree.