The Church and Money in Post-Christian America

[Deborah13]

Hi Handy,

I think we need to clarify that the `church` you are talking about is the church organisation, which is only one way of believers gathering together. The `Church` is the Body of Christ, the called out one, the believers, as we all know. To just give the organisation the label `church` is narrowing down what is the true church. This then gives the organisations of man, too much power, meaning that `they` are the `church.` Whereas they are not, they are just organisations that people run in many forms & because they have done this over centuries it has become set in concrete that this is the ONLY way the church can meet together or function. Thus said, I believe that more & more the organisations are run as businesses & therefore have to come in line with the world system.

There was a recent survey done in America where they discovered that the people leaving the organisations were those that had worked the hardest, been involved in many activities over the years, etc but now they were `done` with the system, but not done with their faith. They now worked with other believers in the community, & functioned without man`s organisation. They said that those systems took all their time, energy & effort to mainly run meetings or activities controlled by the few. They had worked hard in the system but now were seeking other ways to function by the Holy Spirit.

The research is coming out in a book titled - `Church Refugees.`

Interesting, Marilyn.

I've been reading more of this, too. Also, these seem to be the people forming home fellowships. From what I can gather they are mostly coming out of the large organizations.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

So Rollo Tamasi asked my opinion on whether or not pastors should receive a salary and it just so happens that the question fits into some thoughts I've been having lately as to whether or not the Church is serving or hindering the gospel of Christ in how money is handled these days...

Thoughts?

All Churches, including the incorporated Church, unincorporated Church, unregistered Church, etc., are under the jurisdiction of man. These Churches define themselves in particular ways that you do not find in scripture. In other words, Christ did not define his ekklesia .to be those things. These designations were created by the natural man, because Christ never defines his ekklesia .to be incorporated or unincorporated. The laws of man have jurisdiction over the Church because they are man-made terms, and man has jurisdiction over man-made things. Whoever creates something is the same who controls something, and he retains the authority and the power to alter or destroy at will. So, if man creates an organization, no matter what he calls it, then man controls it. If God creates an organization, then he is the one who should control it.

If a church is incorporated by the State, they are legally defined as a business. And they are doing business on the so-called "Lord's day," which is prohibited by God. One of the evidences to show that they are truly a business, even if they are not incorporated, is that they want the money up front. In other words, they pass the plate before they even preach the word of God. That's limited liability on their part, that's business, that's commercial activity, that's selling the word of God.

In other words, "I have the money up front, and if you don't like what I have to say, too bad. Even if I don't preach the word of God, too bad. It doesn't matter, I already got my money. Besides, you won't know any different because I'm going to throw "Jesus Christ" in there now and then to make it 'sound' good. It'll look just like the Pharisees looked. I'll tickle your ears (2 Timothy 4:3-4)."

One of the original reasons for incorporating back in 1810 were things like, "I'm a pastor and I need a salary. I don't want to be paid by fee anymore. I want my guarantee of making a living at this." Which is directly against scripture. We're not supposed to make a living from the Gospel. Paul made tents! That calling was used to get him across from place to place to preach the gospel. Paul did not run up to people and say, "Hey! Give me 5 bucks and I'll tell you what it's all about." Today's pastor basically does that. When you walk into a church today, the church passes around a collection plate and basically compels you to give them money to hear what they have to say. And if you don't give any money, you are looked down upon by others. Churches have even told its congregation that it is a sin if you do not give them money (tithe). What you hear from modern pulpits is nothing more than what's called a sophist, which means "one who preaches ethics for payment." The Gospel is a life (1 Corinthians 9:14). If you are living the gospel, how do you make money off it? If you're living something you can't charge for it, because people see the witness that you bear, because you see and do things differently.

A State Church is a Church that is recognized by the State, serves the State, provides revenue for the State, and serves a public purpose that is not contrary to established public policy. State Churches are registered with the State, with tax identification numbers. State Churches are producers of revenue for the State by paying taxes to assure the alleged solvency of the tax system. Taxable organizations are answerable to the government, open to the inspection and dictates of the government. State Churches are agents of the State by confiscating and remitting to the State taxes that the State has ordered the Church to confiscate. State Churches are servants of the State by keeping records for and remitting records to the State. Most Churches today, whether incorporated or not, are State Churches.

Acts 7:44-52 is what Stephen preached just before being stoned to death. He said that God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands" (Acts 7:48). In other words, God does not dwell in "Churches" or any other buildings, our body is now the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells within us (Romans 8:9-11, 1 Corinthians 3:16,17; 6:19-20, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Revelation 21:3). Believers are now "God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9, 1 Peter 2:5, Ephesians 2:19-22). We are to glorify God in our body in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24, 1 Corinthians 6:20), not in buildings made with man's hands.

Hosea 8:6, "...the workman made it; therefore it is not God."

Isaiah 17:7-8, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made..."

We should not localize God:

Acts 7:49, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"

1 Kings 8:27, "…behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"

 

[Deborah13]

I definitely think pastors, teachers, secretaries, etc. should be paid for what they do, not what they don't do. If a pastor works 40 hrs he should be paid for 40 hrs, works 20 hrs be paid for 20 hrs.. And that means church work, not writing books that he will make the profits from. I think the pastors salary should be within the average salary/wage of the people who attend services and pay his salary.
As far as taxes go, I'm beginning to think that churches should not be tax-exempt on income or property taxes.

 

[handy]

Hi Handy,

I think we need to clarify that the `church` you are talking about is the church organisation, which is only one way of believers gathering together. The `Church` is the Body of Christ, the called out one, the believers, as we all know. To just give the organisation the label `church` is narrowing down what is the true church. This then gives the organisations of man, too much power, meaning that `they` are the `church.` Whereas they are not, they are just organisations that people run in many forms & because they have done this over centuries it has become set in concrete that this is the ONLY way the church can meet together or function. Thus said, I believe that more & more the organisations are run as businesses & therefore have to come in line with the world system.

There was a recent survey done in America where they discovered that the people leaving the organisations were those that had worked the hardest, been involved in many activities over the years, etc but now they were `done` with the system, but not done with their faith. They now worked with other believers in the community, & functioned without man`s organisation. They said that those systems took all their time, energy & effort to mainly run meetings or activities controlled by the few. They had worked hard in the system but now were seeking other ways to function by the Holy Spirit.

The research is coming out in a book titled - `Church Refugees.`

Interesting, Marilyn.

Marilyn, you make a very good point that there is indeed a distinction, and a very important distinction at that, between the Church "the Body of Christ" and the church organisation. The two should not be confused and it can get confusing because "church" can mean the Body, the local organization, what a group does at a certain time (usually Sunday morning), and even the building.

Having said that... I did in fact mean the Church... the Body and Eternal Bride of Christ. Most specifically, the Church in developed nations.

I am addressing this issue towards the Church (as newer folks get to know me and older ones may remember, I always indicate the Church with a "C") because whether or not any individual Christian who is part of the Body belongs to any particular organization and no matter how that organization is ran...whether with good stewardship or not... this issue impacts all of us. Because some churches (local bodies, organizations) spend tax-free dollars on multi-million dollar campuses and stately mansions for the pastor and because $$$$$$ are being spent on high tech light shows and state of the art media presentations during worship services, the message of the Church, the gospel of Christ, is being ... I don't want to say compromised because frankly, very little can compromise the gospel... but 'impacted' is certainly true. In my sojourn out amongst the unbelieving in forum-land, I can't tell you the out and out hostility I faced when speaking of the gospel in general and my faith in particular and when gently pushing back as to why the hostility... two issues were always brought up: the way churches deal with homosexuality and the "hypocrisy" and "unfairness" of churches spending millions and millions of tax free dollars on their facilities rather than spending that money on the poor. I haven't been inside of a church on Sunday morning for at least three years now, but am still subject to the same accusations of hypocrisy, arrogance, and lack of love.

I haven't taken the time to check out "Church Refugees" (thanks for sharing and I will check it out!) but it's not surprising that many of the most faithful are leaving the churches and learning to live out their salvation outside of the "organizations". However, we as the Church cannot wholly divorce ourselves from the local churches. While we within the Body are keenly aware of the differences between a million dollar mega church in a wealthy suburb and a small body of believers in rural Idaho who give out of their own meager resources to make sure the local poor get enough food, the World looks at all of us as One and the Same...which, when you think about it, is correct.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi sojourner4Christ,

I really appreciated your post. You said a lot of very important facts. We have been so brain-washed as to think that if we don`t attend or connect to the public organisational meeting then we are `outside` the Church. But praise the Lord there are so many believers finding other ways to connect & function by the Holy Spirit.

Marilyn.

 

[YosefHayim]

Money is fake; a meaningless mediator and a mere tool for trade.

I don't see anything in scripture that makes Christianity a job or a pastor a CEO of a church.

The NT church shared everything as if it were not their own.

 

[Deborah13]

Money is fake; a meaningless mediator and a mere tool for trade.

I don't see anything in scripture that makes Christianity a job or a pastor a CEO of a church.

The NT church shared everything as if it were not their own.

I believe that is what scripture said they did in one church. They seem to have had several that were going without their needs met, this may included the pastor and his family.

A pastor and his family have to rely on the charity of the church members.
imo it's,
Rather like when Jesus sent out the apostles, taking nothing with them. That did two things, they had to rely on the people to share with them and the people learned about sharing and Christian love for each other.

 

[Malachi]

In connection with the theme of this thread, Christians have generally not been taught Bible truth regarding money and its disbursement within the church. What Scripture teaches is as follows:

1. Christian churches do not "hire" pastors, but they are to be fairly and generously compensated when they "labour in the Word and doctrine".
2. Christian churches must always have a plurality of elders (and all elders are pastors and bishops), so there in never just one pastor calling the shots and controlling the disbursements.
3. The work of the shepherd is not a career but a ministry, and he is not to be a hireling but a servant of Christ and the church.
4. The offerings of believers are to be used primarily to (a) supply the needs of indigent believers, (b) supply the needs of widows and orphans, (c) supply the needs of elders who labor among them, and (d) supply the needs of missionaries.
5. The erection of magnificient church buildings is not authorized in Scripture, since the believers are the church, and the buildings are merely meeting places.
6. It is the job of deacons to manage the finances of the churches, while the pastors/elders focus on the ministry of the Word and on prayer.
7. Registering churches with the government in order to obtain tax advantages for contributions is contrary to Scripture. The church and the state must be kept apart, and taxes must be paid to whom taxes are due.

 

[jasonc]

it is probably a good idea given that we are being forced to go against our consciences in some cases to cede the tax exemption. that way we can refuse, but of course the enemy will work around that. that said I may have attended my first church that had a political sermon. im not sure.

 

[Deborah13]

it is probably a good idea given that we are being forced to go against our consciences in some cases to cede the tax exemption. that way we can refuse, but of course the enemy will work around that. that said I may have attended my first church that had a political sermon. im not sure.

I'm not sure that not having the tax-exempt status will make any difference when it comes to same sex marriage. When a pastor is licensed with the state to administer and sign legal marriage licenses, he is be held to the laws of the state. So if they decide that a pastor doesn't have the protection of freedom of religion over state marriage laws....
In that case, only pastors in common law states, who do not have to be licensed and contracted with the state, could administer to common law marriage bonds, which keeps the state out of marriage.
I find it rather ironic that we have had several threads now, where we have discussed the legality and morality of common law marriage and those of us that are proponents of common law marriage have been seen as rebellious and even as rebelling against God's moral laws.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not sure that not having the tax-exempt status will make any difference when it comes to same sex marriage. When a pastor is licensed with the state to administer and sign legal marriage licenses, he is be held to the laws of the state. So if they decide that a pastor doesn't have the protection of freedom of religion over state marriage laws....
In that case, only pastors in common law states, who do not have to be licensed and contracted with the state, could administer to common law marriage bonds, which keeps the state out of marriage.
I find it rather ironic that we have had several threads now, where we have discussed the legality and morality of common law marriage and those of us that are proponents of common law marriage have been seen as rebellious and even as rebelling against God's moral laws.

it may not but with the left wanting to control free speech. I prefer paying a bit more to have the freedom what I want to say and hear if needed. not that will really stop them but it might slow them down. they like taxes.

yes that debate on common law changed my mind.