The Church Answer Game.

[jasonc]

:clown

OK. No points in the bonus round.

The Greek word for Joseph's occupation was Tekon. This means general construction laborer. But....
People use the materials in the surrounding area. Now in the area of Nazareth there wasnt enough trees to employ a carpenter...nor enough people to patron a carpenter to keep him fed.

But within a day's commute there was a Roman city named Sapphoris. It was made of stone and clay. Complete with plumbing and sanitation. Tons of stone Masons needed to work in it. This is likely what Joseph and Jesus did

When the Bible was first translated into English a "general construction laborer" worked in the forests...with wood. A stone mason was considered a high end skilled trade. So they used the word "carpenter". And a new inaccurate tradition began.

The term vernacular is used in that case.ie masonry vernacular. A home or building with masonry and bricks made on site or nearby. It also applied to wood

 

[reba]

Good grief it is a game :tongue

 

[jasonc]

Good grief it is a game :tongue

Sorry.I have itches to photograph things. Not the time.

 

[JohnDB]

"Nazareth" is still a nothing town. Maybe 8 city blocks in size total. The ruins of Sapphoris show that it was a huge city at one time complete with a theatre, public bath, plumbing and shopping mall. The stones in that now ruined town have been poured over in hopes of finding a craftsman's mark on a stone that might belong to Jesus. Craftsman often leave some kind of mark on their work denoting it as theirs or a note for future people to read about the project of its original construction.

The forests of the area had long been gone. There was no supply of wood. Only stone and clay remained. Lebanon was even out of cedar at that point and had been for some time.

 

[Roro1972]

The Greek word for Joseph's occupation was Tekon. This means general construction laborer

Hey JohnDB After looking around and lots of reading I find this one sentence is the only thing I have some second thoughts about all the other things I thought I disagreed with have vanished. I do not believe "general construction laborer" is the right definition I think " builder" is a better fit. A laborer generally has very little understanding of the project as a whole where as a builder would. labor work is generally the lowest man on the job and many times only has knowledge of one specific basic job. An laborer can mix mud but does not have the knowledge or experience to lay the stone on the wall. a laborer can nail a board but may not be able to cut it correctly. Now a builder can mix mud, lay stone, nail a board, cut the board. A builder has experience in many aspects of building things weather stone wood metal. thanks johnDB

 

[JohnDB]

Hey JohnDB After looking around and lots of reading I find this one sentence is the only thing I have some second thoughts about all the other things I thought I disagreed with have vanished. I do not believe "general construction laborer" is the right definition I think " builder" is a better fit. A laborer generally has very little understanding of the project as a whole where as a builder would. labor work is generally the lowest man on the job and many times only has knowledge of one specific basic job. An laborer can mix mud but does not have the knowledge or experience to lay the stone on the wall. a laborer can nail a board but may not be able to cut it correctly. Now a builder can mix mud, lay stone, nail a board, cut the board. A builder has experience in many aspects of building things weather stone wood metal. thanks johnDB

I'm afraid that if you do a ton of dry research, like I have, of checking sources and sources of resource materials you end up with the same conclusions.
It's not like I have an agenda in destroying all the work the Fathers have done. I believe we stand on their shoulders. But we need to understand why they did what they did... And what we can say about it all.

And it's time for some of these traditions to end so we can speak the real truth. Otherwise we will sound like a bunch of parroting idiots to the heathen who know better.

 

[JohnDB]

New Question coming tonight after I get off work...

The subject will be Peter. Study up!

 

[JohnDB]

OK. We all agree that Peter was the Leader of the Apostles.

In what story and in what manner did Jesus this made clear?

(Not looking for book and chapter and verse numbers... Don't want any to strain a brain cell here)

 

[reba]

church answer upon this rock..

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm afraid that if you do a ton of dry research, like I have, of checking sources and sources of resource materials you end up with the same conclusions.
It's not like I have an agenda in destroying all the work the Fathers have done. I believe we stand on their shoulders. But we need to understand why they did what they did... And what we can say about it all.

And it's time for some of these traditions to end so we can speak the real truth. Otherwise we will sound like a bunch of parroting idiots to the heathen who know better.

It is a game. A game that might teach new points and might even cause some interesting research, but most of all, it is a past time.

 

[th1b.taylor]

church answer upon this rock..

Agree!

 

[jasonc]

OK. We all agree that Peter was the Leader of the Apostles.

In what story and in what manner did Jesus this made clear?

(Not looking for book and chapter and verse numbers... Don't want any to strain a brain cell here)

Peter, satan has desired to sift thee as wheat but I have prayed for thee.when though has strength, strengthen thy brethren

Peter ,thou lovest me,yeah Lord... then feed my sheep.

 

[JohnDB]

church answer upon this rock..

Agree!

BING BING BING.


Correct.... This is the usual answer given. (At least the most common)
jasonc has tried to jump ahead but...well we will get there.

OK. Bonus Question
So do we think this is actually the correct answer?
Is there an earlier moment when Jesus made Peter the leader of the Apostles?
If so what story and in what manner was this shown?

 

[JohnDB]

Any guesses?

 

[smaller]

So my husbands 35 years as a cement mason was Biblical
I enjoy reading your factoids ..

Your husband and I have something in common. I started my labor life as a "hoddy." Deep labor roots there in my family.

 

[smaller]

Next question.... Looking for the "Church Answer" here.

After feeding the 5 thousands Jesus sent the apostles across the Sea of Galilee by boat. Jesus said "he'd catch up with them later" so to speak.

They were shocked to see Jesus walking on the water and passing them.
So Jesus told Peter to come out there and walk to him after Peter asked.

But Peter began to sink into the Sea of Galilee. Why did Peter sink?

The natural man is always afraid/fears transformation. Easy answer.

 

[smaller]

OK. Bonus Question
So do we think this is actually the correct answer?
Is there an earlier moment when Jesus made Peter the leader of the Apostles?
If so what story and in what manner was this shown?

Peter himself was not that leader. The KEY itself is much more important. That KEY is Mark 4:15, the code to unlock ALL scripture. It is the same KEY that Peter was delivered. Few, if any, will see the correlation. And will rather, by the flesh, focus on the flesh man, Peter and miss the point of the KEY entirely.

The CHURCH that Jesus builds in on that KEY, not on the man, Peter.

 

[WIP]

Not to argue but when I read about when Peter identified Jesus as the Christ, I don't necessarily see Jesus' response regarding the rock as pointing at Peter but rather pointing at what Peter said. In other words, I'm not convinced that when Jesus said "Upon this rock..." that He was speaking of Peter. I sometimes wonder if He was speaking about the knowledge of God. I am not settled on this as others are.

Part of my reason for this is that Jesus didn't say "Upon you Peter, I will build my church." Another reason for my question is that throughout the old testament and even into the new testament there is a common theme that I have noticed and recently I did some digging. In the NKJV I found over 275 references where God affirmed who He was with statements similar to...
"I am the Lord."
"I am the Lord God."
"I am God."
"I am your Shield."

...as well as affirming what He wants from us with statements similar to...
"So you will know that I am the Lord."
"So you will know that I am God."
"So they will know that I am the Lord."
"Know that I am God."

Additionally Hosea 6:6 it is recorded, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
And Jesus made reference to this Scripture twice; Matthew 9:13 and again Matthew 12:7.

Just food for thought.

 

[smaller]

Not to argue but when I read about when Peter identified Jesus as the Christ, I don't necessarily see Jesus' response regarding the rock as pointing at Peter but rather pointing at what Peter said. In other words, I'm not convinced that when Jesus said "Upon this rock..." that He was speaking of Peter. I sometimes wonder if He was speaking about the knowledge of God. I am not settled on this as others are.

Part of my reason for this is that Jesus didn't say "Upon you Peter, I will build my church." Another reason for my question is that throughout the old testament and even into the new testament there is a common theme that I have noticed and recently I did some digging. In the NKJV I found over 275 references where God affirmed who He was with statements similar to...
"I am the Lord."
"I am the Lord God."
"I am God."
"I am your Shield."

...as well as affirming what He wants from us with statements similar to...
"So you will know that I am the Lord."
"So you will know that I am God."
"So they will know that I am the Lord."
"Know that I am God."

Additionally Hosea 6:6 it is recorded, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
And Jesus made reference to this Scripture twice; Matthew 9:13 and again Matthew 12:7.

Just food for thought.

The identical KEY delivered with Peter as an example that I observed above is also seen HERE. Do you see it? (I almost wrote "can you say me it!?")

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

This example, the KEY to Peter and Mark 4:15 are in fact ALL Perfectly Identical as to delivery and intent. AS IS Peter walking on water, then sinking.

 

[Edward]

I've been starting to wonder lately if Jesus was only a carpenter. He may have been a landlord (property owner) too...

A couple things suggest this to me. That He was well off is apparent in that His clothing was top of the line (seamless). He even had His own accountant on staff with them.

That He was a property owner is suggested in Mark 11:1-6 when Jesus tells a couple disciples to go to the house where a donkey colt is tied up out front...and take the colt for His use...if anyone asks what you are doing, tell them the Lord has use for it...

That passage seemed a little odd to me because it almost sounds like they stole the colt, yet He did not steal...
If He was owner of the colt/house, then that would explain it perfectly!