The Church Answer Game.

[smaller]

Ummmm. You really don't know where Caesarea Phillipi is do you?
It's at the base of Mount Hermon where one of the three springs that feed the Jordan River before it flows into the Sea of Galilee. No where near either sea or Ocean.
Try again.

I don't see things as you might when we use different lenses. There was a both a severed horse event and a sand/water event in the account. IF there was a river there was sand/water.

The Jordan fwiw, is allegorical to waters of the enemy.

 

[JohnDB]

I don't see things as you might when we use different lenses. There was a both a severed horse event and a sand/water event in the account. IF there was a river there was sand/water.

The Jordan fwiw, is allegorical to waters of the enemy.

I edited... Reread this post please.

 

[smaller]

I edited... Reread this post please.

The game is no fun if the answers are filter biased.

 

[jocor]

So how then did Peter recognize Elijah and Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration?

Does Gill have an explanation for that since photography wasn't invented yet and portraits were sinful...ie illegal?

It was a vision, not reality. The Almighty gave him an understanding of who they were. Moses was not carrying a staff with intertwined snakes on it.

I know... Because it's me it just has to be wrong huh?

I do not hold personal grudges against anyone. I would correct anyone on this forum if I thought they needed correcting.

 

[jocor]

Jesus is described more ways than any of us can really account for. No?

Yes. What does that have to do with my comment? Are you saying he could have been a "tekton" even though Scripture doesn't say so? If so, I agree, but it would be an assumption.

 

[smaller]

Yes. What does that have to do with my comment? Are you saying he could have been a "tekton" even though Scripture doesn't say so? If so, I agree, but it would be an assumption.

We don't know much about Jesus' official line of work. Just saying he was a (tekton's son) really doesn't automatically make Jesus the same. We kind of have a purposeful gap between the age of 12 and the start of His Ministry. I'd like to think his childhood mastery of the Word fills that gap sufficiently to see what His Real Work and perhaps only interest was.

Can you imagine the value of any house that Jesus may have worked on IF He was a carpenter and it was still standing? Wow! What an investment that would have made shortly after His crucifixion. Can you imagine the return? Astronomical.

 

[reba]

Good thing no one here is a baseball umpire the game would never get past the first inning

 

[JohnDB]

Good thing no one here is a baseball umpire the game would never get past the first inning

Oh.
I will get to the Big BIG Bonus Question here tomorrow.
The contortions these dissenters are going through to hang on to the "Church Answers" are rather interesting... But Akham's razor says that their logic is flawed.
Ah well... Can't win the masses...just the remnants.

 

[reba]

you are bad

 

[JohnDB]

you are bad

Agreed... Wicked to the core.
Not one redeeming quality. Even on my best day my best acts are disgusting and revolting.
But I'm going to Heaven because I got an angle.

I know this guy. He's like really good. Now he's got an "in" with God. And for some reason he calls me his friend.
*wink*

 

[JohnDB]

Since I love explaining this story...

A gate was a stronghold of a city. It was built nothing like the gates to castles and castle complexes like we see in the movies. It often was a labyrinth with many turns where there were parapets along the whole labyrinth before you got to the door as well so that a marauding army would attack anywhere but a gate.

Jesus was a bit of a different Schmeeka Rabbi (highest order of rabbi) than the other ones. He would often take trips (vacations) into Roman/Greek cities. Especially when a king would notice him (such as Herod did).

At the end of Jesus' ministry he took the Apostles to a city called Caesarea Philippi. This city was at the base of Mount Herman where one of the three springs that fed the Jordan River before it flowed into the Sea of Galilee.

This spring used to gush forth with such force that it was believed (by the Greeks) that the River Styx itself fed it. As a customary practice of placing a temple or idol at every water source the Romans built a temple to one of their gods here.

In the Roman world there were two main types of gods as described in our bibles. One was to Baal and the other to Ashera. Gods of Baal were ones of conflict resolution with favor resting on the one who made the more favorable sacrifice. (Blood sports) It wasn't simulated violence it was the real thing...It was believed that successful sacrifice to one of these would allow you to win your case in court, that pesky neighbor would lose and have to move or some other such thing.

There there were the Ashera gods...these were fertility gods. They would grant you children, good crops and wealth. This sort of god was appeased through sexual activity of some kind.

At Caesarea Phillipi there was a temple to the fertility god Pan. He was a half goat and half man creation. Customarily they would bring out the goats and get them to start mating and then the dancing girls would come out and dance suggestively....then it was audience participation time. And it was known to be the world's largest outdoor orgy.

For Jesus to bring the disciples there it would be rather disconcerting. These guys were just men...not raised in the Temple or as Levites...they probably had cracked jokes about the place in the past with other guys. Now....at the end of three years of following a Rabbi it was shameful and hideous to look upon all those naked bodies going at it. Contempt for such sin would be an understatement.

This is the exact place (on a nearby hillside with the "party" going on as a backdrop) where Jesus begins a lesson for the 12.

Who do people say that I am?

Peter answered with the names of three former prophets who were known for their outrageous zeal for God....otherwise known as passionate men.

All of these guys had one message about God and they were bent on delivering that message no matter what the personal cost in friendships or their lives.

(Jesus obviously mirrored these guys in passion...or maybe these prophets merely mirrored Jesus. )

Who do you say that I am?

Peter says what we expect him to say...that Jesus is the Messiah who is God himself...Emmanuel/God with us.

But not only that...all of Jesus' attributes as well...that God is so very good and kind....even to some of who we think is the least godly among us.

BUT...that was kind of a "no brainer" by this point. They had seen Jesus walk on water, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, heal a blind, deaf-mute man (the ultimate test for a genuine miracle of God according to the Jews (Matt 12) and feed thousands out of just a pocketful of food.

The biggest thing is that this is going on with that orgy going on in the background. Not one word of condemnation is being said about it....

the big IN OTHER WORDS

The telling how good Jesus/God really is... and that He wants us to have a personal relationship with him is what his "Church" or Ekklesia (lit: called out ones) is really built upon.

AND HERE'S WHATS MORE:

That when this is really embraced as your strongest thing that we ALL (the "you" in "I will give you the key" is plural) have the Keys to the treasure rooms of all the power, might, and wealth that Heaven has at it's disposal to further God's kingdom. (a limitless supply)

And all of that filth of self indulgence, self importance at the expense of others, all that shameful knowledge of pleasure cannot stand up to the message that Jesus/Emmanuel (and all that He stands for) loves us in spite of our shameful ways. This stronghold and most fortified center of all that filth and ungodliness can't stand up to this message...the GOSPEL/Good News message.

So...

Yes, when Paul writes: "Therefore (because of all the stuff he said before) there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those of us in Christ Jesus." it is kinda an understatement...

 

[JohnDB]

And that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew.

It's a Big BIG Bonus answer.

 

[JohnDB]

Bump. For Steve

 

[stovebolts]

Bump. For Steve

Stove lol....
That was good. It wasn't where I thought you were going to take it, but I certainly liked where you took it. BTW, I didn't know the You was plural. That was certainly a bonus.

 

[stovebolts]

BING BING BING

Correct traditional answer.

Now for the Bonus Question.

Is this answer logical/correct?
Think carefully now...was it simply a function of where Peter was looking that kept him afloat?

In part, I think several things were happening here. Ironically, I think I posted something on this very subject in another thread you may have been in. Maybe not. Hey, you called me Steve earlier, so I know you'll give me some grace lol

A disciple is in training to be just like his Rabbi. That is to say that a disciple will one day be like his Rabbi in many ways. Peter see's who he believes is his Rabbi walking on water, and, wanting to be, and do the things his Rabbi does... it's not surprising that he requests to do from his Rabbi, what his Rabbi is doing. Put simply, he asks his Rabbi if he is ready to be like his Rabbi in that way. The answer is yes. Jesus believes Peter can do what he himself is currently doing.

We don't think about Jesus having faith in us, but he does. As with Peter, Jesus has faith that we can do the things He can do. He actually says that we will do greater things (John 14 in reference to His mission). And we have.

We often water down what faith is and it has turned into a set of doctrines that one must believe. I.E. Jesus is the son of God etc. But faith is so much more. It has been established that Jesus has faith in us to do the things He does, but do we really believe that? Do we have faith that we can do the things Jesus wants us to do?

It's unfathomable to even think we could be anywhere remotely like Jesus as it is pounded in our heads from one pulpit to another that we are sinners in need of a savior.

Peter was a fisherman, which means he wasn't good enough to have a Rabbi. Yet Jesus picked him and said, "Come, follow me". Is it any wonder he had a moment of doubt? Don't we all? After all, none of us are good enough, right?

But this is a story of rescue and redemption because Jesus saves him. But not only does he save him from drowning, but he affirms to Peter that he has no need to doubt, and he understands that his faith is still growing. Jesus is patient with us, and he will be there when we call out to him.

 

[JohnDB]

In part, I think several things were happening here. Ironically, I think I posted something on this very subject in another thread you may have been in. Maybe not. Hey, you called me Steve earlier, so I know you'll give me some grace lol

A disciple is in training to be just like his Rabbi. That is to say that a disciple will one day be like his Rabbi in many ways. Peter see's who he believes is his Rabbi walking on water, and, wanting to be, and do the things his Rabbi does... it's not surprising that he requests to do from his Rabbi, what his Rabbi is doing. Put simply, he asks his Rabbi if he is ready to be like his Rabbi in that way. The answer is yes. Jesus believes Peter can do what he himself is currently doing.

We don't think about Jesus having faith in us, but he does. As with Peter, Jesus has faith that we can do the things He can do. He actually says that we will do greater things (John 14 in reference to His mission). And we have.

We often water down what faith is and it has turned into a set of doctrines that one must believe. I.E. Jesus is the son of God etc. But faith is so much more. It has been established that Jesus has faith in us to do the things He does, but do we really believe that? Do we have faith that we can do the things Jesus wants us to do?

It's unfathomable to even think we could be anywhere remotely like Jesus as it is pounded in our heads from one pulpit to another that we are sinners in need of a savior.

Peter was a fisherman, which means he wasn't good enough to have a Rabbi. Yet Jesus picked him and said, "Come, follow me". Is it any wonder he had a moment of doubt? Don't we all? After all, none of us are good enough, right?

But this is a story of rescue and redemption because Jesus saves him. But not only does he save him from drowning, but he affirms to Peter that he has no need to doubt, and he understands that his faith is still growing. Jesus is patient with us, and he will be there when we call out to him.

I like this thought line you have...it's really great.

I'd like to add that I think it's Peter's attitude of " live or die it doesn't matter I'm going to __________ for God because God matters most." Which is repeated often in scripture with David and Goliath, Caleb, Elijah at Mt Carmel and Stephan's final speech to the Sanhedrin council to name a few.

It's that "going nuts" for God...even if it means you try to walk on water...in the same water where a year ago your fishing nets sank every time the threw them in.

Properly channeled and with the right actions at the right time miracles happen... Seemingly every time from a perceived absentee God.

I have no faith in me...I know I'm a clown and a screw up...but God...hey, He can always get it done and done right. I'll be lucky to be there when it needs to be done... And even luckier if I'm involved in any way.