The "dead in Christ" are rising, 1 Thessalonains 4:16

[guibox]

I still would like you to explain these passages please:

"However, you are in a plight here. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 make it plain that the spirits of ALL men go BACK TO GOD. Not to hell. The spirit is 'breath' (ruach), the spark of life that is given to all men and even to beasts. When man dies his 'breath goeth forth, in that very day his thoughts perish' as David says.

For the whole 'my spirit/soul goes to heaven at my physical death' are taken from these quotes from which the NT borrows them to talk about Stephen being stoned and Christ 'giving up the ghost' on the cross. (BTW, did you know that the expression 'and Jesus gave up the ghost' is translated as 'and Jesus breathed His last'?) If the spirit of ALL men goes back to God who gave it, then unless you are preaching universal salvation, you cannot say the 'spirit' is the 'thinking, feeling, existing part of man that survives physical death.

The scriptures simply cannot be ignored for Greek dualistic philosophy.

from coop"Hell is not a physical place on our dimension." Are you sure?
"whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Where is this fire?
"it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Where is this "hell?"
"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." hell has gates.
"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" These folks have been there for about 2000 years. They have about 1000 years to go.
"it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" The fires of hell are permanant!
"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Hell is down.
"Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell;" As I said, it is God that has the power to cast people into hell.
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." A rich man died, and was cast into hell, just as the previous verse said. Why don't you believe it?
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell..." This is a prophecy about Jesus. It was not His body in hell, it was His soul. If Jesus was there, how can you not believe in it?
"if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell" Again, hell is down, below the foundations of the mountains. It is a physical place, since this is a physical planet.
"the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: Is the sea a real, physical place? If so, then hell is a real place.

[quote:fe81c]The spirit is not the soul and doesn't go to heaven or hell but remains in the tomb where the voice of Christ awakens the whole man to eternal life

[/quote:fe81c]

Your problem, coop, is that you are running willy nilly into the English translation and studying eisegetically (from the outside in with assumptions) while ignoring context and the language.

There are 4 words for hell used in the Bible with three meanings (Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, and Tartaros). Sheol and Hades is where you go when you die. It is a place of unconsciousness, no thought, wisdom, love or praise. David and Solomon make this crystal clear. It is translated and meant to be taken as 'the grave'. It is the place where we are resurrected from at the second coming of Christ. The other meaning used to denote hell-fire is 'gehenna'. This is the end time punishment spoken of in Revelation 14 and 20. Nobody is in gehenna right now. The belief that when I die I go to hell and suffer tormenting fires is a false amalgamation of two different hells. The third 'tartaros' is used only once in 2 Peter to show where the demons are. It is, I believe, a spiritual dimension that we cannot see.

You must look at the original meanings of the words and how the Hebrews and early Christians (and not the Greeks) used them.

I will agree, the spirit is not the soul, but the two are tied very closely together and will be together forever. Why would anyone think that one's soul will remain in the grave, when the soul is not something physical, and when Jesus clearly told you where the spirit and soul of the rich man went? Could He have made it any plainer? It says, "in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments." Why torments? Because of the fire, just as the verses above said exist in hell. Again, Jesus could not have made this any plainer.

First of all the 'soul' is not some esoterical, ghostly form of man. The Hebrew word for 'soul' (nephesh) is NEVER used as immortal but is translated as 'living being' and 'life'. Man doesn't HAVE a soul, he IS a soul. The Hebrews did not believe in a dualistic nature of man. Look at Genesis 2:7 very closely.

As far as Luke 16 goes, my friend, this is a highly metaphorical parable not intended to prove any afterlife but to show the neglect of stewardship of the Jews to the Gentiles. Nowhere, ANYWHERE, can you find biblical support for this parable. The rest of the scriptures blatantly contradict this passage as a literal discourse on the afterlife. As a matter of fact, the word 'hell' here (Hades) is used 10 other places in the NT and NOT ONE connotates the information of Luke 16. This topic has been hashed out many times. I suggest you troll this section of the forum to find the other instances where it has been talked about.

So given a choice to believe what the NT says about the spirit of man, and one verse in Eccl, which will you believe? There are many chapters in Job that I would not believe in for anything. yet, they are in the word of God. What do you think of the book of Eccl. in general?

Ecclesiastes is not even the cream of the crop for the support that man dies, stays in the grave and is awakened to eternal life at the resurrection. Job, David, Solomon, Christ, the apostles and especially Paul prove this over and over. A simple cursory reading of 1 Corinthians 15 will prove this unequivocally. You cannot ignore the scriptures for blatant and gratuitous assumptions that ignore the context, language and logic of the scriptures.

On the cross, Jesus said, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." Sorry, but he was not speaking of any grave.
Coop

Jesus dies before the thief. There is no proof that the thief even died on that day. He could have taken days to die. And where is the biblical proof that the thief and Christ went to heaven right at their death? 'Into thy hands I commit my spirit'? Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 shows that this cannot mean 'my soul goes to heaven' for it would be universalism. Jesus 'breathed His last' and 'died'. And Jesus didn't even go to heaven. When He met Mary He said 'Hinder me not for I have not yet presented myself to the Father.'

Remember that the Greek didn't have puncutation. The text should have read 'I say unto you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise'. 'I say unto you today' is used constantly throughout the bible by Jesus and others to emphasise a given point. This is logical in this case as well.

 

[lecoop]

Guibox wrote,

Jesus dies before the thief. There is no proof that the thief even died on that day. He could have taken days to die. And where is the biblical proof that the thief and Christ went to heaven right at their death? 'Into thy hands I commit my spirit'? Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 shows that this cannot mean 'my soul goes to heaven' for it would be universalism. Jesus 'breathed His last' and 'died'. And Jesus didn't even go to heaven. When He met Mary He said 'Hinder me not for I have not yet presented myself to the Father.'

I disagree. There is good proof. The soldiers broke the knees (or legs) of the other two prisoners, so that they would die immediately. They could not force themselves up to get a breath. Logic says they would die within a few minutes. Then, there is the idea of the holy day starting at sundown. They had to get these people off the cross, and into the grave, before the Sabboth. Therefore, I believe that Jesus and the theif were, indeed, in the paradise side of hades, that day, just as Jesus said. Jesus saying 'Into thy hands I commit my spirit' is not at all saying that HE went to heaven, which, as you point out, He did not. He said that he would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. This is exactly where He went. But before He breathed His last, He turned control and protection of his spirit over to God. He had to, for God alone determines where the spirit will end up.

Remember that the Greek didn't have puncutation. The text should have read 'I say unto you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise'. 'I say unto you today' is used constantly throughout the bible by Jesus and others to emphasise a given point. This is logical in this case as well.

I disagree.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Guibox wrote,

As far as Luke 16 goes, my friend, this is a highly metaphorical parable not intended to prove any afterlife but to show the neglect of stewardship of the Jews to the Gentiles. Nowhere, ANYWHERE, can you find biblical support for this parable. The rest of the scriptures blatantly contradict this passage as a literal discourse on the afterlife. As a matter of fact, the word 'hell' here (Hades) is used 10 other places in the NT and NOT ONE connotates the information of Luke 16. This topic has been hashed out many times. I suggest you troll this section of the forum to find the other instances where it has been talked about.

Again, I disagree. This is not a parable, for Jesus names people. He never does this with parables. Lazarus was a real human being, as was the rich man. And there is MUCH written that supports this. How many times did Jesus mention hell, and the fire, and the gnashing of teeth, and the wailing. There can be no doubt that hell includes fire, and people in the fire, being tormented, just as Jesus said. I think you have read this story of Lazarus, with preconceived glasses. Then there are many reports of people that have been sent or taken to hell, so that they can come and tell us about it. They all agree with the story of lazarus. There is MUCH proof.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Giubox wrote,

The 'dead in Christ' are not 'dead' if they are 'alive' in heaven. To say 'dead in Christ' only talks about the body is to ignore the teaching of man being a wholistic being. When one dies, the rest of him does too. Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.

Why don't you quote a new testament verse that clears this up? God is a triune God, and we are made in His image and His likeness. Jesus tells people over and over again, that they could end up in hell, with fire. He was not speaking of the lake of fire, he was speaking of hell, the place of departed spirits.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We must always interpret old testament scriptures through the new. You are just assuming that the spirit dies, yet the new testament gives a totally different story. We were created to live forever. It is the body that dies. I don't think you understand death. Physical death is no more that separation of the spirit and soul from the body. Did Jesus cease to exist after He died? He said that He, Himself, would go into the belly of the earth for three days and three nights. Yet His body stayed in the grave. It was "He" as His spirit man," that went into the belly of the earth, to hades. God told Adam that on the day that he ate the forbidden fruit, he would die die: two dies! The kjv says "surely" die, but in the Hebrew, there are two dies: one for the body, which did not die until 900 and some years later. But Adam died spiritually the moment that he ate. He became separated from God, and lost the glory of God that covered him.

Spiritual death is not the cessation of life. It is separation from God. Paul speaks of spiritual death here:

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When Paul was a child, before the age of accountability, He was alive to God, innocent before God. But when he reached the age of accountability, he understood the law, and sin came, and he died. Did he keel over and was buried? No, he died spiritually. His spirit was cut off from God.

Eternal death, is physical death plus spiritual death. This means that unless God works a miracle, and brings someone back for another chance, if they are spirituall y dead when their heart quits, then will end up in the second death. This is eternal death. And even then, it is not a cessation of life: it is just eterally separated from God.

Job asked the question, 'If a man dies, shall he live again'? He answers it by saying, 'All the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change come'. He says, 'so man lieth down and awaketh not till the heavens be no more. Paul also says the same thing. Even as in Adam all die, so shall all in Christ be made alive, but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, aftward, they that are Christ's at His coming.

Then you have to explain who these folks are that Paul said Jesus will "bring with Him." It is commonly understood that He will bring the spirits of those that are "dead [spirit separated from body] in Christ. Again, it seems you read these verses with preconceived glasses on.

The 'dead in Christ' will be awakened (see Daniel 12:1-2; John 5:28-29) and the dead will no longer be dead. To say that the 'dead in Christ' are being brought back to inhabit their bodies is an oxymoron and is not supported by the scriptures anywhere.

The "dead in Christ," are returning with Him! (Go back and read it again!) They are dead, only physically. Their spirit went immediately to be with Jesus. I think you need to listen to someone that has died, and then came back to life. When the heart stops, the spirit just slips out of hte body, just like taking off an overcoat.

What verse 14 is saying is that even as Jesus DIED and ROSE, so God the Father (who raised God the Son) will raise us up in the same manner.

Jesus was the firstfruits, meaning there would be many more to follow.

Coop

 

[guibox]

The argument that Jesus doesn't use names in his parables is completely ludicrous and has no biblical merit. The fact is is that Luke 16 is surrounded by parables and the entire chapter is really a continuation of the parable before. Second, none of the facts of Luke 16 can be supported elsewhere in the Bible. I've mentioned this before but you seemed to have ignored it. Third, Jesus made it plain that 'even though one rose from the dead, you will not hear'. They were dead but Jesus gave them personification for the sake of the meaning of the parable. I suggest you go to this link and read it thoroughly:

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

Concerning Jesus on the cross, it says that Jesus would be in Sheol/Hades. Acts 2:34 makes this plain in quoting David that Christ would not perish in the grave (which is what Sheol/Hades is translated as) but would be risen as the first fruits. Nowhere is it mentioned that Christ was alive or that His 'soul' was wandering around the afterlife. This is Greek dualism read into Hebrew/Christian theology.

Your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 ignores the context of the first part: "If we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE again...EVEN SO (or in the same way or manner)...those that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him"

To say this means that Jesus brings back the souls of the dead to inhabit their bodies makes no sense of the first part. They are linked together! Second, your interpretation ignores these facts:

1) It is God the Son, not God the Father who is coming to gather the saints. Hence, you have two persons of the God head doing the same thing
2) It assumes that 'bring with Him' means 'bringing the souls back to inhabit the bodies'. Nowhere is the body/soul reunification even talked about in the bible. This is a gratuitous assumption that is contradicted by 1 Corinthians 15:18-23, 51-55 as well as 2 Timothy 4:6-8 all of which speak of eternal life at the resurrection and not at our physical death as some disembodied soul.
3) It completely makes Paul's words senseless and redundant at best. Paul would not say 'I would not have you ignorant concerning them which are asleep as others who have no hope' and then 'comfort one another with these words' if the loved ones' souls are in heaven.

No Paul is showing that hope and comfort are found in the resurrection of the dead where eternal life is realized. There would be no 'sorrow as others who have no hope' if our loved ones were already enjoying eternal bliss. Paul goes on to tell them what this hope is...eternal life realized only at the resurrection.

Again, 'sleep in Jesus' and 'rising from the grave' are not conducive and are a complete contradiction to souls being in heaven.

I will address the fallacy of your 'spiritually dead' argument at another time...

 

[lecoop]

The argument that Jesus doesn't use names in his parables is completely ludicrous and has no biblical merit. The fact is is that Luke 16 is surrounded by parables and the entire chapter is really a continuation of the parable before. Second, none of the facts of Luke 16 can be supported elsewhere in the Bible. I've mentioned this before but you seemed to have ignored it. Third, Jesus made it plain that 'even though one rose from the dead, you will not hear'. They were dead but Jesus gave them personification for the sake of the meaning of the parable. I suggest you go to this link and read it thoroughly:

Really?

The Sower and the Seeds (Mark 4:3-9; Matt 13:3-9; Luke 8:5-8)
"Hearken, lo, the sower went forth to sow;..."

The Weeds in the Grain or the Tares (Matt 13:24-30)
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"
The Net (Matthew 13:47-50)
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea"

The Seed Growing Secretly (Spontaneously) or The Patient Husbandman (Mark 4:26-29)
"And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground..."

The Leaven (Matthew 13:33; Luke 13:20 f.)
"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took"

The Barren Fig Tree (Luke 13:6-9)
"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard"

The Closed Door (Luke 13:24-30)
"When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door"

The Doorkeeper (Mark 13:33-37; cf. Matt 24:42)
"For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey,"

The Thief in the Night and the Faithful Servants (Matthew 24:42-51.; Luke 12:32-48.)
"But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come" "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household" "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.Blessed are those servants..."

The Strong Man Bound (Matt.12:29; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:21 f.)
"29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods..."

The Unoccupied House or The Demon's Invasion (Matthew 12:43-45; Luke 11:24-26)
"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places..."

The Importunate Neighbor (Luke 11:5-8)
"And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend..."

The Son's Request (Matthew 7:9-11; Luke 11:11-13)
"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?"

The Unjust Judge or The Importunate Widow (Luke 18:1-8)
"Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city.."

The Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14)
"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican."

Master and Servant (Luke 17:7-10)
"But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle..."

The Servant Entrusted with Authority or The Faithful and Unfaithful Servants (Matt. 24:45-51; Luke 12:42-46)
"And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household..."

The Waiting Servants (Luke 12:35-38; Mark 13:33-37)
"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding..."

The Laborers in the Vineyard or The Generous Employer (Matt.20:1-16)
"1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder..."

The Money in Trust or The Talents (Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:12-27)
"He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return."

The Patch and the Wineskins (Matt. 9:16 f.; Mark 2:21 f.; Luke 5:36-39)
"No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment,..."

The Householder's Treasure (Matthew 13:52)
"Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder..."

The Dishonest Steward (Luke 16:1-12) Revised!
"And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward..."

The Unforgiving Official or The Unmerciful Servant (Matthew 18:23-35)
"Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants."

The Rich Fool (Luke 12:16-21)
"And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:"

The Wicked Vinedressers (Matthew 21:33-41; Mark 12:1-9; Luke 20:9-16)
"Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard..."

The Two Builders (Matthew 7:24-27; Luke 6:47-49)
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock..."

The Two Debtors (Luke 7:41-43)
"There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty."

The Hidden Treasure (Matthew 13:44)
" Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found,..."

The Pearl of Great Price (Matthew 13:45 f.)
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls..."

The Sulking Children or The Children in the Marketplace (Matthew 11:16-19; Luke 7:31-35)
"But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets..."

The Bride's Girlfriends or Ten Virgins (Matt25:1-13)
" Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps..."

The Wedding Feast or The Unwilling Guests (Matt 22:1-10; Luke 14:16-24)
"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son..."


The Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37)
"And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves..."

The Prodigal Son or The Loving Father (Luke 15:11-32)
"11And he said, A certain man had two sons..."

The Two Sons, The Apprentice Son, and The Slave and Son (Matthew 21:28-32; John 5:19-20a; John 3:35)
"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons..."

The Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10)
"Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece..."

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus..."

How interesting that this is the ONLY "parable" in which a man has a name, to differentiate him from all other men. And how interesting that you do not believe what this story is telling us, even it is a parable: when men die, their spirits go to hell, if they are unrighteous.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Guibox wrote,

Concerning Jesus on the cross, it says that Jesus would be in Sheol/Hades. Acts 2:34 makes this plain in quoting David that Christ would not perish in the grave (which is what Sheol/Hades is translated as) but would be risen as the first fruits. Nowhere is it mentioned that Christ was alive or that His 'soul' was wandering around the afterlife. This is Greek dualism read into Hebrew/Christian theology.

Really?
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Thayers: Shoel "shĕ'owl"
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a) the underworld
b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1) place of no return

Psalms is saying that God the Father would not leave Jesus' soul in hell. It is a place sinners go to:

Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Sorry, but beating a child with a rod, may keep him out of hell, but it would not keep him out of the grave, for all die. However, all will not end up in hell. Where is hell?


Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Hell is in the earth, and NOT just six feet under. Those in hell speak:

Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This verse, and MANY more like it, would make no sense at all, if Jesus was speaking of physical death. All die, but Jesus said it is better to lose an eye than to be cast into hell. He is not speaking of physical death.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus speaks of both kinds of death here: physical death that kills the body but cannot kill the soul, and spiritual death that kills both soul and body in hell.

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Sorry, but this is simply not speaking of physical death.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Have you ever seen the ground buring with fire, in the bottom of a freshly dug grave? No, Jesus is not speaking of graves, but of hell, the place of departed spirits. That is where the fire is.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This verse speaks of two different places, Hell for the soul, and the grave for the body.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Does this sound like a grave?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Guibox wrote,

Your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 ignores the context of the first part: "If we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE again...EVEN SO (or in the same way or manner)...those that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him"

To say this means that Jesus brings back the souls of the dead to inhabit their bodies makes no sense of the first part. They are linked together! Second, your interpretation ignores these facts:

1) It is God the Son, not God the Father who is coming to gather the saints. Hence, you have two persons of the God head doing the same thing
2) It assumes that 'bring with Him' means 'bringing the souls back to inhabit the bodies'. Nowhere is the body/soul reunification even talked about in the bible. This is a gratuitous assumption that is contradicted by 1 Corinthians 15:18-23, 51-55 as well as 2 Timothy 4:6-8 all of which speak of eternal life at the resurrection and not at our physical death as some disembodied soul.
3) It completely makes Paul's words senseless and redundant at best. Paul would not say 'I would not have you ignorant concerning them which are asleep as others who have no hope' and then 'comfort one another with these words' if the loved ones' souls are in heaven.

No Paul is showing that hope and comfort are found in the resurrection of the dead where eternal life is realized. There would be no 'sorrow as others who have no hope' if our loved ones were already enjoying eternal bliss. Paul goes on to tell them what this hope is...eternal life realized only at the resurrection.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

We do believe that Jesus died and rose again. He gave up His spirit, and His spirit left His dead body, and went down to hell. However, since the time of the resurrection, the spirits of the righteous go to heaven, since Jesus took paradise from hell to heaven. That is why He will bring the spirits of those that have died in Christ with Him. They have been there every since they died. This verse in no way contridicts the idea that spirits of righteous men go to heaven.

Is not Jesus "God?" The next verse bears this out:


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,

Nowhere is the body/soul reunification even talked about in the bible.

Sorry, but it is talked about right here. Neither does 1 Corinthians 15:18-23 deny this. Jesus was the first to get His resurrection body; many more will follow. This says nothing about how this will happen.

The church in general, has believed that absent with the body, is to be present with the Lord. Yet in my 61 years, I have seen very few funerals of church people that was a rejoicing meeting, as it should be. Why? Because those left will have to do without those that went to heaven. Kind of selfish. I think you need to rethink this whole idea of death. As Hank Hanagraph has said, there is a "pale of orthodoxy" which are the main beliefs that have been established for centuries. Men much smarter than you or I have decided on the truth of these things long before we came along.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Yo Guibox, getting a wee bit warm in there is it?

 

[guibox]

I meant to say that the idea that Luke 16 can't be a parable because Jesus used names is what is ludicrous, lecoop.

I could talk t'il I'm blue in the face but you wouldn't listen to the reality that the biblical evidence, when studied exegetically and not having preconceived notions read into the text, is against you.

I have numerous encyclopedic sources (as well as the majority translation of Sheol as 'the grave' throughout the OT) that show that Sheol is the grave and not some underworld where spirits roam freely. Your insistence on translating 'hell' the way you do creates numerous problems. You said 'sinners go to hell'. That is not true because everybody goes to Sheol/Hades at death. This is 'hell' according to the KJV. Sinners go to 'gehenna' at the end of time which is also 'hell'. You can't make them the same. Get off the 'hell' kick and study the original language as was understood by the Hebrews and Christians and not the Greeks and Romans.

As for the immortality of the soul, I stand in the company of William Tyndale and Martin Luther himself as well as numerous scholars, theologians and clergy from all faiths throughout the last 500 years and great theologians of recent like Oscar Cullman, Clark Pinnock and John Stott who believe that the Bible doesn't support immortality of the soul and that it is Greek influence.


Let's hear the reason and logic from the great Reformers themselves...

On December 19, 1513, in connection with the eighth session of the fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimis) declaring, "We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal"...The Bull also decreed that "all who adhere to the like erroneous assertions shall be shunned and punished as heretics." The decrees of this Council, it should be noted, were all issued in the form of Bulls or constitutions

In 1516 Pietro Pomponatius, of Mantua, noted Italian professor and leader among the Averrorists (who denied the immortality of the soul), issued a book in opposition to this position called Treatise on the Immortality of the Soul. This was widely read, especially in the Italian universities. As a result, he was haled before the Inquisition, and his book publicly burned in Venice.

Then, on October 31, 1517, Luther posted his famous Theses on the church door in Wittenberg. In his 1520 published Defence of 41 of his propositions, Luther cited the pope's immortality declaration, as among "those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals" (proposition 27). In the twenty-seventh proposition of his Defence Luther said:

"However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithfulâ€â€such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretalsâ€â€in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish.â€â€Martin Luther,

Archdeacon Francis Blackbume states in his Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State, of 1765:
"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then he made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment of his life"

Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.† Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep

The Lutheran scholar Dr. T. A. Kantonen (The Christian Hope, 1594, p. 37), likewise referred to Luther's position in these words:

"Luther, with a greater emphasis on the resurrection, preferred to concentrate on the scriptural metaphor of sleep. For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him " we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death. ''We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, "Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment, and be with him forever.' "

From Luther himself:

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when are awaked, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11; Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body"

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realize its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless, he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way"

"We should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the clouds . . ."

And what of William Tyndale?

In 1529 Thomas More had strongly objected to the "pestilential sect" represented by Tyndale and Luther, because they held that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday." In 1530 Tyndale responded vigorously, declaring:

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be) And then what cause is there of the resurrection?"â€â€William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

"The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it".â€â€lbid., p. 180.

"And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;" there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect."â€â€Ibid., p. 118.

"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection"

Wise words from Tyndale and so true. Being 'made alive' as 1 Corinthians 15 says, is not alive if the soul which is already alive merely cloaks itself with a body. Being 'made alive' means being given eternal life. This is the whole man.

Paul, nor the rest of the bible, doesn't support a fate for the body and a fate for the soul. It doesn't support a body/soul reunification. It puts the whole man as saved and resurrected, or condemned and sent to gehenna. All this occurs at the resurrections, not at our physical death. Your insistence to separate the body and the soul is clouding your exegesis of the scriptures. I could take you through 1 Corinthians 15 to show that Paul viewed the resurrection as the culmination of salvation history in the result of eternal life.

I don't believe you would listen however.

 

[lecoop]

Please explain what you think Jesus was meaning by Lazarus and the rich man.

What you are trying to say is that just because it is a parable, then it cannot be true. Good luck with that! Please find any part of any parable that is not truth. Show us some examples!

In the parable of the sower, we find that seeds grow.
In the parable of the tares, weeds grow up among the wheat. It is truth: weeds grow.
In the parable of the leaven, the leaven leavened the whole batch of dough. Have you ever seen some loafs that were flat, while the rest rose as they should? No, the yeast spreads through the entire dough!
IN the parable of the fig tree, it did not produce fruit. Have you ever seen fruit trees that just did not produce in certain years?

You can go through every parable, and find that he used simple, but true events to teach something spiritual. You want to find an excuse not to believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Let me ask you, in your mind, what was the purpose of that story?

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

"I got hit in the head with the baseball bat and then I saw the doctors and nurses looking down at me as I lay in a hospital bed."

This statement is entirely consistent with a factual state of affairs where I was unconscious for several hours. I am not saying that one second after being hit, I was in the hospital bed.

This part of your post hit home to me, (no pun intended concerning the baseball bat)
:D

This unconsciousness is such a very good example. For me it was a car accident. I was in the middle of nowhere...45 minutes from the nearest hospital when it happened. I remember seeing the car hit me...the very next thing I remember is the paramedics over me, trying to bring me back to consciousness. I was already strapped to the stretcher and my neck and head unmovable, (they had worked with me for a long while.). The car hitting me and waking up was the very same moment as far as I knew, even though at least an hour and a half of time had pasted.

When Jesus turned to the thief on the cross and told him, “…Luke 23:43
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.†KJV

This did not mean that the thief went to paradise at the moment that he died. It meant that after entering the spirit world, time was no longer relevant. Time is a dimension that is part of the carnal man’s world, not the spirit. The thief died, and no time pasted in his consciousness until he was being resurrected at the end of the age. He slept until then.

Unfortunately the only way to truly understand this is to be knocked unconscious for a long period of time. I truly think that this is a very good preview of what death is like. I have had personal experience with it. This unconsciousness is so absolute that time no longer exists.

The people writing the books about being dead, going to heaven and coming back to life, are only visions, if anything at all. There are no second chances, except maybe through visions given by God.

1 Thess 4:13-14
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
KJV

All Paul is saying here is, “…I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep…†When Christ returns He is bringing those that sleep also. He mentions them first because they are first. When what is mentioned below happens it is the resurrected and the alive that has been transformed that Christ is bringing with him. They are now all clothed in white linen, (for purity).

Rev 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
KJV

Then Paul explains further, which is what Johns also talked about.

1 Thess 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent, [not precede] them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…
KJV

Paul keeps telling us over and over about the dead in Christ, (those that sleep in Jesus) will meet Him first. They will most probably lead the charge of the army.

Many of these things happen in a twinkling of an eye. Why is this so hard to believe of a God that can create the entire universe in 6 days?
:wink: :D :D :D

 

[lecoop]

"I got hit in the head with the baseball bat and then I saw the doctors and nurses looking down at me as I lay in a hospital bed."

This statement is entirely consistent with a factual state of affairs where I was unconscious for several hours. I am not saying that one second after being hit, I was in the hospital bed.

This part of your post hit home to me, (no pun intended concerning the baseball bat)
:D

This unconsciousness is such a very good example. For me it was a car accident. I was in the middle of nowhere...45 minutes from the nearest hospital when it happened. I remember seeing the car hit me...the very next thing I remember is the paramedics over me, trying to bring me back to consciousness. I was already strapped to the stretcher and my neck and head unmovable, (they had worked with me for a long while.). The car hitting me and waking up was the very same moment as far as I knew, even though at least an hour and a half of time had pasted.

When Jesus turned to the thief on the cross and told him, “…Luke 23:43
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.†KJV

This did not mean that the thief went to paradise at the moment that he died. It meant that after entering the spirit world, time was no longer relevant. Time is a dimension that is part of the carnal man’s world, not the spirit. The thief died, and no time pasted in his consciousness until he was being resurrected at the end of the age. He slept until then.

But if you believe what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, it does mean that both Jesus and the thief, went to paradise, after they died. It matters little whether or not you say it is a parable. It is a fact: Jesus used truth, not lies, and not fiction, to teach parables. I will agree that in many cases, he "created" for the purpose of explanation, "a man" or words to that effect in many parables. Did "a man" exist in reality? He did not need to exist for the purpose of the many such parables. Everyone that heard these parables, understood that. The facts of the parables, however, were all true. If Jesus said that a certain rich man died (there were certainly many rich men that had died) and the spirit and soul of that certain rich man went to hell - then we can be sure that that is exactly what happens to the spirits and souls of all unrighteous men. It is God's word, which will never pass away. All of the world denying it will not make it untrue.

The people writing the books about being dead, going to heaven and coming back to life, are only visions, if anything at all. There are no second chances, except maybe through visions given by God.

Yet Pastor Roland Buck (Angels on Assignment) came back from the throne room, with the paper that God handed to him! On it was recorded the next 100 major events in his life. He put the paper in an envelope, and went home. The next day, the paper had turned to powder. Most of the congregation saw the powder in the envelope. Jessie Duplantis was taken to some kind of transportation device. He said it looked like a gondola such as would take people up on a mountain on a cable; a cable car. Once in it, it took off and left planet earth and soon approached another planet. Could this have been a vision? It is possible, but very improbable. Father Abraham gave him a fruit, and when He bit into it, juice went everywere. He looked down to see if it got onto his cloths, and he said it looked as if he had the same suit on when he left earth! How did Father Abraham get into heaven, before the "resurrection?" He also met David, and Paul, and Jonah. How did they get there? There are to many such reports to just ignore.

1 Thess 4:13-14
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
KJV

All Paul is saying here is, “…I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep…†When Christ returns He is bringing those that sleep also. He mentions them first because they are first. When what is mentioned below happens it is the resurrected and the alive that has been transformed that Christ is bringing with him. They are now all clothed in white linen, (for purity).

If all that is "them" are dead, How can Paul write that Jesus will be bringing them with Him? How can He bring with Him, what has turned to dust in the ground? Your argument seems to fall apart at this point. But if when they died, the spirit man went to heaven, indeed, Jesus will bring those spirits back with Him, and they will be "first" to get their resurrection body, because God will bring together the molecules (or atoms) that used to be their body "first" before He does anything with those that are alive. So God resurrects the bodies of these saints that have been in heaven in their spirit, and once more, the spirit has a body! But now, it is a resurrection body, that will never die! So the dead in Christ are "first" before those alive in Christ. After the dead in Christ have joined with their new resurrection bodies, then those alive in Christ will be instantly changed, and they too will have resurrection bodies. We will all then meet Jesus in the air, and in the clouds. We will all then be taken to our abodes in heaven.

it is the resurrected and the alive that has been transformed that Christ is bringing with him

Not so at all. Read closely, without preconceived ideas:

...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is Jesus before this statement takes place? Of course, in heaven, at the right hand of the Father. How does this begin?

...the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...

He is in heaven, and He descends from heaven. Now add this phrase:

...them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him...

We already know who it is that is coming: it is Jesus. But Jesus is God, and God is Jesus. There is no verse that says God the Father will come. Paul probably used "God" because He had already used Jesus in the sentence. So Jesus is the one descending from heaven, and he is leading those dead in Christ with Him. At this point in time, the resurrection has not yet happened! Your scenario then, leaves much to the imagination. Paul did not want the church to be ignorant of these things. Why then, is there still so much ignorance?

Rev 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
KJV

As much as you want to say that this verse explains the previous one from Paul, it is only your theory. If we back two verses:

Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Question: would the marriage supper be before the marriage? Not for any weddings I have been to. John is telling us, in very brief outline, that the wedding ceremony, whatever that will be, is over, and the wedding feast is not taking place. Now, if we back up two more verses, we read:

the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready

It is not difficult to follow John's chronology: first the wedding, then the wedding supper, then Jesus descends to earth. The church then, of necessity, must have been in heaven already, else they miss the wedding.

to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

She wears fine linen to represent the righteousness of the saints. When does she get these linen robes? Undoubtedly before the wedding.

Then Paul explains further, which is what Johns also talked about.

1 Thess 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent, [not precede] them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…
KJV

Paul keeps telling us over and over about the dead in Christ, (those that sleep in Jesus) will meet Him first. They will most probably lead the charge of the army.

Many of these things happen in a twinkling of an eye. Why is this so hard to believe of a God that can create the entire universe in 6 days?
:wink: :D :D :D

It is hard to believe, because it simply does not fit what is written. the dead in Christ will NOT meet Him first. Where do you get this idea? Sorry, but Paul further explains what he is talking about. Those dead in Christ, whom Jesus will bring with Him, will be joined to their resurrection body first. Then, after that, we which are alive and remain will be changed. Then all, both the dead in Christ, and we who remain, will meet Him in the air, and in the clouds. We meet Him together!

Coop

 

[Bick]

Concerning the popular teaching that man's soul/spirit is immortal, I have a number of questions:

1) If, upon death, a believer (his soul/spirit) is said to be immediately in heaven with God,
How does his soul/spirit see, feel, hear, praise God, etc (the normal things that "those gone to heaven" can do) if there is no brain, no body etc?

2) And, if they have a "body" in heaven, how can John write some years after Jesus ascension, in John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." ? AV.

It is obvious that all the old testament saints, as well as those NT believers who might have died prior to John's words, could not have ascended to heaven.

3) And further, Peter in Acts 2:25-29 and 34, quoting David's words from Psa.16:8-11, writes:
"David said about him: 'Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will live in hope, because you will not abandon be to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
You have make known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence'
Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day." NIV.
Vs. 34 "For David did not ascend to heaven,.." NIV.
If David has not ascended to heaven, then how can any of the OT saints be "in Abraham's bosom", as the story goes?

These words from the Psalms were no doubt known by Jesus and were his prayer before his death.

Since it comes up so often, let us carefully study Luke 23:42-43 (The thief on the cross):
'"And he was saying: Jesus! remember me whensoever thou mayest come in thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Verily, to thee I say, this day, with me shalt thou be in the paradise." RNT.

First of all, look carefully at the thief's request. Does the thief believe that Jesus must be the Son of God, or perhaps, the Messiah? He must, for the thief asked to be remembered when Jesus comes in his kingdom. And that, IMO, will be at Jesus coming again as Messiah to establish his kingdom.

Next, we must understand that "paradise" means a "park or garden ground", from Young's Concordance. It is a word in Greek having a Persian origin.
I quoted the verses from Rotherham's New Testament for it correctly has the article "the" before "paradise." You may ask, 'What difference does this make?" It makes a difference because in the coming kingdom, Jerusalem and Israel will be gloriously restored, with the land teeming with trees and plants.

Look at Isa. 51:3: "The Lord will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins;
he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden (paradise) of the Lord. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing." NIV.

And Ezek. 36: 33-35: "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, 'This land that was laid waste has become like the garden (paradise) of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruin, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited."

A lot of the confusion arises because the compilers of the KJV put the comma before "today" instead of after it. In the Greek manuscripts, there were no punctuations, so the compilers made it read "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise." KJV.
In reality , the phrase "I say unto you today" or "this day" is a Hebraism, a solemn idiom used for great emphasis; Used some 40 times in Deuteronomy.

 

[Vic C.]

Jessie Duplantis, Coop? Kenneth Copeland's right hand man? :o :-?

 

[lecoop]

Concerning the popular teaching that man's soul/spirit is immortal, I have a number of questions:

1) If, upon death, a believer (his soul/spirit) is said to be immediately in heaven with God,
How does his soul/spirit see, feel, hear, praise God, etc (the normal things that "those gone to heaven" can do) if there is no brain, no body etc?

How did Paul see or hear anything when he was taken to the 3rd heaven? How did the rich man see Lazarus? "...And in hell he lift up his eyes..." It is very easy: our spirit man has eyes and ears. God is a spirit, and He both sees and hears. We are created in His image and likeness. When it is written, "we have the mind of Christ," that is certainly not our fleshly, corrupt mind. That is speaking of the mind of the spirit.

2) And, if they have a "body" in heaven, how can John write some years after Jesus ascension, in John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." ? AV.

It could be John is saying that no man, under his own power, can ascend to heaven. Only God can do that! Or John could be saying that the whole man, body, soul and spirit have not ascended to heaven. Flesh and blood cannot go there. We will all go there when we get our resurrection body.

It is obvious that all the old testament saints, as well as those NT believers who might have died prior to John's words, could not have ascended to heaven.

It is not so obvious.

3) And further, Peter in Acts 2:25-29 and 34, quoting David's words from Psa.16:8-11, writes:
"David said about him: 'Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will live in hope, because you will not abandon be to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
You have make known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence'
Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day." NIV.
Vs. 34 "For David did not ascend to heaven,.." NIV.
If David has not ascended to heaven, then how can any of the OT saints be "in Abraham's bosom", as the story goes?

These words from the Psalms were no doubt known by Jesus and were his prayer before his death.

First off, before Jesus died, perhaps only Enoch and Elijah made it to heaven. All the others went to hades, which was divided with a great gulf between paradise and the fire part of hell. It was only after Jesus death, burial and resurrection that those saints were loosed out of prison, and taken to heaven. I can promise you, David is there now. He is the one that gave Jessie Duplantis his tour!

Since it comes up so often, let us carefully study Luke 23:42-43 (The thief on the cross):
'"And he was saying: Jesus! remember me whensoever thou mayest come in thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Verily, to thee I say, this day, with me shalt thou be in the paradise." RNT.

First of all, look carefully at the thief's request. Does the thief believe that Jesus must be the Son of God, or perhaps, the Messiah? He must, for the thief asked to be remembered when Jesus comes in his kingdom. And that, IMO, will be at Jesus coming again as Messiah to establish his kingdom.

Next, we must understand that "paradise" means a "park or garden ground", from Young's Concordance. It is a word in Greek having a Persian origin.
I quoted the verses from Rotherham's New Testament for it correctly has the article "the" before "paradise." You may ask, 'What difference does this make?" It makes a difference because in the coming kingdom, Jerusalem and Israel will be gloriously restored, with the land teeming with trees and plants.

Look at Isa. 51:3: "The Lord will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins;
he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden (paradise) of the Lord. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing." NIV.

And Ezek. 36: 33-35: "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, 'This land that was laid waste has become like the garden (paradise) of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruin, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited."

A lot of the confusion arises because the compilers of the KJV put the comma before "today" instead of after it. In the Greek manuscripts, there were no punctuations, so the compilers made it read "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise." KJV.
In reality , the phrase "I say unto you today" or "this day" is a Hebraism, a solemn idiom used for great emphasis; Used some 40 times in Deuteronomy.

Yes, Jesus did indeed say that unto him that day, but all around would know that, and it seems wasted words. Can you find another example of Jesus saying this. On the other hand, what He said was true, no matter where you put the comma. They were both in hell, within hours.

Coop