The "Debate" that's not a Debate

[josefnospam]

God is not sitting around wringing his hands and hoping someone will make a decision for Jesus so he can help them. He is Jesus Christ the LORD and Saviour reigning on his throne right now. He didn't TRY to save anyone. HE SAVED all his people whom he choose before the world was or a star twinkled in the sky.

He is not a gentleman, your friend, a co-piliot or helper.

HE IS God almighty and he came to earth to shed his blood for his choosen people.
He choose them, paid for their sins in blood and is the Soverign God of creation.

Don't waste my time by claiming it's your decision or work or will. There is NO DEBATE at all.

Either you belong to him by his choice, power, and might or you do not.
Either you believe in him as the perfect Saviour who does not need your help or you do not.

He is JESUS CHRIST the LORD and SAVIOUR who shed his blood for for all his blood bought people as only he can and will do, when he wants, with who he wants in his way and time and we better fear and worship him and never put your trust in anything you might say do or decide.

You believe in in your free will and I believe in his perfect finished work and saving grace, but don't try to convince, debate or change his Soverign mercy grace and salvation of his choosen people. Only he can open eyes and only he can change hearts andn give his spirit to whomeoever he chooses.
Iwill not enter into or be harmed by such things because he is my Saviour. I trust him,fear him and thank him as he allows to do so. Thank God for HIS mercy and HIS grace. He will never fail, but we will always fail in the flesh.

You can believe anything you want and so can I.
You can do anything you want and so can I
You can say anything you want and so can I.

Our salvation is not dependent or anything we do but on Jesus Christ and the spirit he gives his people. He is the Soverign God of all doing with his creation whatsoever he wills

Men hate the truth.........that they are helpless and unable to even approach him but he is faithfull and true and SOOO mercifull to his people. His choosen children thank him for his mercy and grace now and forever..

His people don't tell others what great things we have done for God but what great things God has done for us and we DON"T DEBATE. We worship him giving him all the honor, praise and glory due his name as he allows us to do so knowing He will never fail. I hope you have been giving the spirit of God and can also rest in his perfect and complete work. We are not under the law but under his precious and amazing grace. What a great God we worship.

 

[WIP]

I have a question, well, actually a few. If God made the decision to save me long before the world was created and my will has no effect on my salvation then...
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Adam to disobey?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for sin to exist?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to command his 600+ laws to Israel?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to give us the ten commandments?
Why did he choose to make it necessary (because it is not my choice) for me to sin?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to die that I might be saved and what then am I saved from if my destiny is already chosen?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to be born at all?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for me to hear the Gospel to be saved?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to preach the Gospel?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to preach the Gospel to all nations?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to baptize all nations?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to be baptized?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to believe?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me that I must repent?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for most to be lost?

I can probably come up with more questions but I'll stop here.

 

[Obadiah]

...and we DON"T DEBATE. We worship him...

But yet your entire post is actually a clear debate and lecture in support of Calvinistic theology, containing little or no worship at all.

 

[josefnospam]

I have a question. Why do you choose to question God. Also he doesn't "make it necessary" to do anything. He is God and does what he wills. Who are we to question him? He saves his people by his mercy and grace and he's not pleased by anything except Jesus Christ and him crucified. You either have his spirit and praise him or you do not.

Only and I repeat ONLY those who have his spirit are covered by his rightousness. When he returns he will be angry at ALL flesh for their sins and unless he sees his son, he will punish all men for their sins. And guess what? Were all sinners....................Thank God he has chooses a people and he will not fail.

Were ALL are sinners because of Adam. All are guilty and all must be held accountable. His choosen people have been washed in his shed blood and will stand in that day, because God punished his son for our sins, past present and future. His elect live to give him all the honor, praise and glory. His mercy and Grace is amazing and I hope he has mercy on you. And finally thats a lot of questions.

 

[josefnospam]

The worship is in giving him all the honor and believing in him because he is worthy. The Calvin thing saves no one. Jesus Christ the Lord does.

 

[Free]

You believe in in your free will and I believe in his perfect finished work and saving grace, but don't try to convince, debate or change his Soverign mercy grace and salvation of his choosen people.

All are guilty and all must be held accountable.

Held accountable for what? You imply that there is no free will. If there is no free will then there is nothing to be held accountable for.


All in all, it is your interpretation that leads to you think there is no debate, when there is, in fact, very good reason to debate such a position. Your position may be right, but it also may be wrong.

 

[josefnospam]

I have heard a lot about Calvinism. There is no saving grace in any theology. I know some so called calvins who are without doubt still in there unsaved state. They believe in progressive santification which is a form of Calvin. Believing in Calvinism, or any other ism means nothing. Theology does not save anyone. Jesus Christ the Lord alone saves his people. Thank God for his mercy and His grace. And by the way, worshiping him for what he has done, declaring him LORD and KING is worship of our great God who is JESUS CHRIST the LORD. Uplift him and his work, never what any man does.

 

[josefnospam]

My position is of no importance. But we are all dead in tresspasses and sins and God who is rich in his love reaches down into then pit we are all in and chooses one here and there and gives life to the spiritiual dead. Only he can do that. You must be born again and that not of yourself but of God. His mercy and grace is amazing and I hope he has given you his spirit.

 

[Free]

My position is of no importance.

Then why did you post it and start this thread? Your opening post is your position, your understanding of what Scripture says. And it may not be right, so it is open for debate.

 

[Vaccine]

Hello Josefnospam! well you've told us what we shouldn't do, debate. What should we do to bring people to christ?

 

[josefnospam]

One final thought. My postion is not the issue or the problem. I believe in Jesus Christ the Lord and if led by his spirit declare his truth. I have none of my own and am dependent upon him for his truths. If Im wrong God have mercy upon me but if I am right may he have Mecry upon you and many who ponder these things. He is faithfull and cannot lie or fail. But the purpose of this post is not to debate but rather to declare God's wonderfull salvation based on what he does, has done and will do. You can attack the messenger all day long but the message remains the same. Jesus Christ the Lord is Saviour of all his people. I thank him and stand in his debt, which I can never repay. That is HIS mercy and HIS grace. Thank God he has a choosen elected people. Anything that honors men, does not honor God and takes our eyes off him and focuses on us. May this never be the case

 

[josefnospam]

Bring the good news...Jesus Christ saves his people. Worship him alone. Only he can save anyone. You or I cannot, but we can speak of the one who can and does.

 

[josefnospam]

We cannot bring anyone to christ. Nor can we save anyone. That idea is focusing on what we do and that is wrong. Focus on and trust in him, his mercy and his grace. He will find and save all his people. Declare him as Saviour to others, and if it please him to call someone at that time, what an honor and privilage. If he decides not to use you for that purpose at that time, and he may, keep decalring his mercy and grace and let him do what he wills. After all HE is the one and only GOD. May he have mercy upon you and me as we declare him Saviour and God of all his people. But brother it doesn't gain us any favor or make us any better or worse, it is simply our duty and debt to declare such wonders.

 

[Obadiah]

Declare him as Saviour to others, and if it please him to call someone at that time, what an honor and privilage. If he decides not to use you for that purpose at that time, and he may, keep decalring his mercy and grace and let him do what he wills.

See, a lot of what you have said is so true and so good, but then again you say you do not believe in Calvinism or any other "isms", yet whether you realize it or not this is a statement that comes directly from Calvinistic theology and not from the Bible. The truth is the Bible just isn't clear on whether or not God chooses only certain people to be saved and other times "...decides not to use you for that purpose at that time...", or if God wants everyone to be saved but when you witness to someone who doesn't accept it, it is Satan instead who is causing that, not God choosing not to save that person. Let's face it, if God's word WAS clear on this, it wouldn't be such a major division within the body of Christ, would it?

This is why you can't take a stand that is clearly Calvinistic (even if you say you didn't intend that, it clearly is) in a divers group of people such as we have here and not expect disagreement just because you tell us not to debate you on this. But I think you probably knew that, didn't you? I agree with Free when he asked "Then why did you post it and start this thread?" If your only purpose had been to worship God and declare His glory, you could have done that without all the debatable and controversial Calvinistic language.

 

[Danus]

I have heard a lot about Calvinism. There is no saving grace in any theology. I know some so called calvins who are without doubt still in there unsaved state. They believe in progressive santification which is a form of Calvin. Believing in Calvinism, or any other ism means nothing.

Hello josefnospam.

I've not seen you around much, so you must be a little new. Welcome to the forum.

I don't know about you, but I often look for a scripture daily that relates to something I, or a loved one, is going through, then I study on it and share it with that person.

This morning I was thinking about my wife and how she has been struggling at work to feel appreciated. Sometimes we can get that way. When it feels like we are so small and insignificant that everyone else seems to be oppressive to us. I bring this up because I came across a scripture that speaks to how we should be, and I thought It fitting to share it here also before getting too far into answering an issue.

So here it is; Philippians 2:14-15 (NIV) 14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.†Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky

This is, of course, Paul instructing the church on how they should conduct themselves in a rotten world. He spoke often about these things, but I particularly like verse 15, "Blameless and Pure"

I think this is a great reminder of how the church should interact. "Do everything without grumbling or arguing". Certainly you would agree with this based on your own theology, which you have expressed. After all, those who are chosen would in fact have no problem with this advice since their doing it would be just part of their fruit displayed for all. But, if that's true, why would Paul feel the need to say it to them in the first place? ;)

Your theology, your understanding of salvation, to me, is very solid. Some have challenged you a bit, but I can tell you it's not so much what you have expressed in believing, but your presentation and to what level you understand what you understand.

So, if you don't mind, lets not say this is not a debate, because it is, and saying there is no debate on your possition only serves to weaken your argument. Do this instead; WELCOME the debate.

If you are solid in your understanding; you are confident then you would have no problem with welcoming a debate because you know you will win! You know your right, because if you are not convincing others, then your only trying to convince yourself, and if that's the case you might as well not say anything. But, you have something to say and so you said it. Good for you. Be confident in what you know to be true.

There is only one truth for sure, but only to the one who holds the truth can it be said there is not debate. For God Himself that's a no brainier, but for anyone to speak on behalf of the one who holds the truth, we'd better be sure we are in His truth, you would agree.

You have expressed a classic Protestant view of salvation; it's the view that is farthest on the Protestant meter, so to speak, one wich would rightly include John Calvin, and many others. You may or may not be aware, but you have expressed a lot of what Calvin did in fact exspress, but then that's OK to me because I agree with Calvin on many levels. However, I think your very right not to accept the brand of "Calvanist"

In any case, what are you ultimately trying to say? I think you are trying to express the full sovereignty of God, and how that relates to our salvation?

 

[Vaccine]

We cannot bring anyone to christ.

Hello josefnospam! I think you misunderstand. I am not talking about a 'works' based salvation. I am talking about the great commission. It seems you are asserting a different version of the great commission.
You said, "He will find and save all his people." That sounds like we are all on a train which will take us home and all we have to do is sit by and wait on the Lord. Those that are saved will be on that train and those that aren't saved won't. What if I'm sitting on that train and suppose I see someone pounding on the window? What if they even give me the finger? One might say I should trust the Lord, if he is meant to be on the train he'll be here.
But what if they are pounding on the window to get in? What if they are giving me the finger because I won't do anything? It seems to me that even though some people are hostile toward Christianity, on some level, they are drawn to it. Now, I'm not saying everyone who is hostile toward Christians secretly wants to be one. What I am saying is if we look past the hostility, some actually want answers to their questions.
It reminds me of the parable of the talens, where one servant was afraid and hid the talens in the ground. The master was not pleased with this. I should not be afriad to "enter into or be harmed by such things". It seems to me I am better off engaging the world, even if that involves some debating and makes me uncomfortable. Not because it will 'win' me any favor or even bring one person to Christ, but for no other reason than he asked me to.
Blessings!

 

[WIP]

Sorry josefnospam but you have posted your "declaration" in the Apologetics forum where you are now required to defend what you have written. Such is the nature of apologetics. Most of what you have written sounds like it has thrown the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the works of Paul directly into the trash and since you have opened this discussion I now ask you to explain what you wrote.

Personally, I don't believe our purpose is to go crawl into a closet or stick our heads in the sand and hope God picked us. He has given us a commission and a law and that law calls for some action on our part. If loving God and loving each other is too much "works" then I would love to be a workaholic.

 

[Eventide]

What must I do to be saved...?

I think that much of this comes from false teaching... young Christians being taught that God chose THEM and that there is nothing that a person must do to be saved..

There's a world of difference between these two statements..

1) God chose me

2 God chose me in Christ

The scriptures are clear in teaching that God hath from the beginning (before you and I existed) that you were chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

First of all... that's conditional.. these are God's conditions for choosing any person to be saved... sanctification of the Spirit and believing the truth..

What must I do to be saved ?

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

That's conditional.. and it's not up for debate... because it's the simple truth of the word of God..

However, if people are going to continue to insist that God chose them unconditionally then imo it's simply because they refuse to hear the simple truth of the word of God.

 

[reba]

I have heard a lot about Calvinism. There is no saving grace in any theology. I know some so called calvins who are without doubt still in there unsaved state. They believe in progressive santification which is a form of Calvin. Believing in Calvinism, or any other ism means nothing. Theology does not save anyone. Jesus Christ the Lord alone saves his people. Thank God for his mercy and His grace. And by the way, worshiping him for what he has done, declaring him LORD and KING is worship of our great God who is JESUS CHRIST the LORD. Uplift him and his work, never what any man does.

I know some so called calvins who are without doubt still in there unsaved
state.

So when did God tell you who was saved or not?

 

[Deborah13]

I am right may he have Mecry upon you and many who ponder these things.

Why should anyone ponder these things? It would seem that it would be a waste of time to do so. Either one is chosen or not. Usually one ponders in order to learn about something and then make a decision. No decision to make, no pondering.