The Deity of Christ

[xicali]

THE DEITY OF CHRIST


SCRIPTURE

a) Isaiah 9:6 "...His name shall be called...†“…Mighty God, Everlasting Father…â€Â

I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6:16-18

Scripture prophesied that God the Father would walk among us according to the above verses.

b) Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name:"

What name is the father going to use? Since they all ready know him by various names therefore I must say “…God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow…†Philippians 2:9

c) Zechariah 14:9 “…And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be…The LORD is one, and His name one.â€Â

NOT three, Just Jesus the Christ

d) Ezekiel 34:11 “…thus says the Lord GOD: Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.â€Â

Is God saying He will come as a shepherd and will Himself look for his sheep?

Yes that’s what he said.

THE HISTORICAL BOOK OF JOHN

a) John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.â€Â

God calling Himself “the good shepherd†will give his life for his sheep, after He God in the flesh looks for them.

b) John 14:9 "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father;"

Every time a woman gives birth she will call her product SON. God incarnated in the body of the son of Mary. God created Mary so that He God could be born in the flesh in her.

c) Hebrews 2:14 “Inasmuch then as the children [sons of God, His sheep]have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

In other words predestined sons are participating of a body so God is doing like wise participating of a body too kill the devil [amongst other things] with that body He provided for himself.

d) John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word,...the Word was God."

Clear enough


THE GOSPEL OF GRACE

a) 1 Timothy 3:16 “…without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh.â€Â

b) Romans 9:5 “... of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.â€Â

Great is the mystery of godliness God was in Christ Jesus and according to the flesh He came from the fathers lineage.

c) Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;"
d) Colossians 1:15-16 “He is the image of the invisible God,â€Â


God was in Christ reconciling us to Himself......... 2 Corinthians 5:19

Just like the devil was in Adam destroying humanity through sin.


Understand that by His incarnation God use the body of the Nazarene to destroy the law, the devil, sickness, poverty, the Adamic seed and more!

In whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:3

 

[thessalonian]

Will this finnally silence the arguement on this board? I doudt it.
Sad that people will not submit on this issue. Very dad. :

 

[TruthMiner]

THE DEITY OF CHRIST


SCRIPTURE

a) Isaiah 9:6 "...His name shall be called...†“…Mighty God, Everlasting Father…â€Â

The Hebrew word EL which you here translate as "God" is a Hebrew word which refers to ANYTHING which is mighty or powerful.

I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6:16-18

What does the context say?

Scripture prophesied that God the Father would walk among us according to the above verses.

In Trinitarianism, God the Father is NOT Jesus. So what's your point? Have you also read Revelation 21-22?

b) Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name:"

What name is the father going to use? Since they all ready know him by various names therefore I must say “…God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow…†Philippians 2:9

c) Zechariah 14:9 “…And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be…The LORD is one, and His name one.â€Â

NOT three, Just Jesus the Christ

d) Ezekiel 34:11 “…thus says the Lord GOD: Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.â€Â

Is God saying He will come as a shepherd and will Himself look for his sheep?

Yes that’s what he said.

THE HISTORICAL BOOK OF JOHN

a) John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.â€Â

God calling Himself “the good shepherd†will give his life for his sheep, after He God in the flesh looks for them.

b) John 14:9 "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father;"

Every time a woman gives birth she will call her product SON. God incarnated in the body of the son of Mary. God created Mary so that He God could be born in the flesh in her.

c) Hebrews 2:14 “Inasmuch then as the children [sons of God, His sheep]have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

In other words predestined sons are participating of a body so God is doing like wise participating of a body too kill the devil [amongst other things] with that body He provided for himself.

[quote:7358f]

d) John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word,...the Word was God."

Clear enough

Since John did not know anything about capitalization techniques, how about I write "and the word was god"?

THE GOSPEL OF GRACE

a) 1 Timothy 3:16 “…without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh.â€Â

A well known scribal error.

b) Romans 9:5 “... of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.â€Â

More bunk. In fact, many Trinitarian scholars themselves do NOT accept this verse as referring to Jesus as God. And you call such a feeble translation "evidence?" Moreover, a close examination of Paul's style, grammar, etc indicates the verse should be translated as "Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed. Amen."

Great is the mystery of godliness God was in Christ Jesus and according to the flesh He came from the fathers lineage.

There is no relationship between the Greek word translates here as "godliness" and the Greek word for "God."

c) Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;"

Have you ever read the next verse. Says we have his fullness too.

d) Colossians 1:15-16 “He is the image of the invisible Gd,â€Â

So was Adam.

God was in Christ reconciling us to Himself......... 2 Corinthians 5:19

[/quote:7358f]

God lives in Christians too.

 

[xicali]

Salute truth miner,

Please state your point :smt102

 

[AVBunyan]

Nice work xicali -

Since John did not know anything about capitalization techniques, how about I write "and the word was god"?

A well known scribal error.

There is no relationship between the Greek word translates here as "godliness" and the Greek word for "God."

I see how it is truthMiner - if you don't like what you find you just correct the King James Bible or run to whatever Greek text fits your doctrine. :o

Kind of like Burger King, "You can have it your way" :-D

So TruthMiner - what is your final authroity here? :roll:

 

[TruthMiner]

Nice work xicali -

Since John did not know anything about capitalization techniques, how about I write "and the word was god"?

A well known scribal error.

There is no relationship between the Greek word translates here as "godliness" and the Greek word for "God."

I see how it is truthMiner - if you don't like what you find you just correct the King James Bible or run to whatever Greek text fits your doctrine. :o

No, I was quite happy being a Trinitarian.... that is until I found out it was nothing but a heap of contrivances.

As for knowing "how it is", I am not so delusional to believe the KJV trumps the original Greek much less having fantasies that the KJV is a perfect translation. Anyone who knows anything about translations knows that such a thing is not even possible.

So TruthMiner - what is your final authroity here? :roll:

Regarding what?

 

[AVBunyan]

As for knowing "how it is", I am not so delusional to believe the KJV trumps the original Greek much less having fantasies that the KJV is a perfect translation.

So how do you know what the original Greek/Hebrew says?

God bless

 

[mutzrein]

I am one of these unfortunate non scholarly types. Haven't studied theology, cannot read a word in Hebrew or Greek. And sometimes I wonder about my abilities in my 'mother tongue'. :wink: Bordering on autism perhaps. But you know, God seems to speak my language.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

As for knowing "how it is", I am not so delusional to believe the KJV trumps the original Greek much less having fantasies that the KJV is a perfect translation.

So how do you know what the original Greek/Hebrew says?

How does anyone know what the original said, for that matter? We don't have the original, but there are some very big clues that claims for the deity of Christ/Trinity were inserted into the text as the doctrine evolved (i.e. 1Jn.5:7)

 

[Imagican]

I am one of these unfortunate non scholarly types. Haven't studied theology, cannot read a word in Hebrew or Greek. And sometimes I wonder about my abilities in my 'mother tongue'. :wink: Bordering on autism perhaps. But you know, God seems to speak my language.

Amen Brother.

It's not a matter of how 'smart' you may or may not be, it's a matter of faith and understanding that comes from the Spirit and NOT from ourselves.

And Brad, I admit that what you offer IS truth. But, I must believe that the Bible contains 'enough' of what God wanted preserved in order for us to develope a relationship with the Father through His Son. While there very well may be these changes that you allude to, I trust in the Spirit to offer the 'truth' regardless of the changes.

Many 'seem' to find 'trinity' in the Bible, I don't. Many find universalism in the Bible, I don't. Many believe that through the Word, they can find justification in the worship of Saints or Mary, I don't.

So, there is much indication to myself that the 'truth' is certainly to be found in the Word EVEN though those that compiled it may indeed have been influenced by their previous teachings and beliefs. Not necessarily in the words themselves, but in the complete 'picture', (it's entirety).

 

[TruthMiner]

As for knowing "how it is", I am not so delusional to believe the KJV trumps the original Greek much less having fantasies that the KJV is a perfect translation.

So how do you know what the original Greek/Hebrew says?

God bless

Why don't you find out how the KJV translators thought they knew.

 

[xicali]

As for knowing "how it is", I am not so delusional to believe the KJV trumps the original Greek much less having fantasies that the KJV is a perfect translation.

So how do you know what the original Greek/Hebrew says?

God bless

Why don't you find out how the KJV translators thought they knew.

I get goosebups just to think all the brothers that are burning in hell just because they didn't have much of a choice of bibles from 1611 on.

I wonder what the brother read and belive to get it right...I guess only the scholars are in heaven.

any ways why can't we keep on topic this thread is for The Deity of Christ...

 

[mutzrein]

OK. Why do those who proclaim the deity of Christ, believe that those who don't are damned?

 

[gingercat]

I am one of these unfortunate non scholarly types. Haven't studied theology, cannot read a word in Hebrew or Greek. And sometimes I wonder about my abilities in my 'mother tongue'. :wink: Bordering on autism perhaps. But you know, God seems to speak my language.

Thank you mutz, you spoke pretty much about me :D I am goofy, I am poor, I am not so pretty, I am not so young, I am not so tallented, I dont have good brain... I can go on forever, but God is so gracious that even under these conditions He still gives me confidence that I am just fine!!!

Praise the Lord!!! Thank you Jesus!!!!

 

[thessalonian]

OK. Why do those who proclaim the deity of Christ, believe that those who don't are damned?

Personally I have never said that you or those like you are damned. I leave that up to God, the judge of all men. But it is most certainly important to be able to correctly identify who God is or from your perspective if Jesus is not God, but just a man and I worship him I have a false God. Not the truth of course but from both perspectives, how can I claim the authority to say that you are fine where you are at though you cannot identify correctly who God is. Do you know Jeff, if you think that Jeff is 3 feet tall and hairy arms and makes chimpanzee sounds, when the Jeff that I am speaking of is 5'8, brown hair and brown eyes. Do you know the same Jeff? How can I say that you do (and vice versa). I make no claim one way or the other about your salvation. All I can say is from my perspective you are not Christian as you do not know the real Jesus Christ. If this offends you all I can say is I am sorry but I will stand my ground. It does more harm than good in my mind to say, well any view about who Jesus Christ is is okay as long as you believe there was a Jesus Christ. Relativism does not fly when the truth is on the line and I have no authority to say that one piece of truth or another is optional, especially when it comes to a relationship with the ONE TRUE GOD which requires knowing who he is. Quite clearly it is problematic if one does not know God so don't expect my blessings for who you think God is. Neither shall I express condemnation but hope that you will come to know him as he truly is.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

Thess,

I KNOW that God IS God. I KNOW that Christ IS His Son. Now, how can I be confused if I simply accept them as they have offereed themselves? I have NOT tried to create 'my own God', I simply trust in what has been offered and the revelations that I receive.

You may choose to accuse me of being 'led' by 'something else', yet I know God and His Son, and I know this: I worship God AS God and I worship Christ AS the Son of God. This is what I have been offered and this is what I do.

I openly accept the gift that has been offered by, none other than God; His Son, His Lamb. That for which we were created by and for. I am well aware that Christ existed 'before' man and believe that His influence has been apparent from the beginning.

I don't choose, however to make an effort to usurp the authority of God by trying to 'turn someone else' into the Father. I am plenty capable of discerning the difference between Father and Son as offered in the Word. There IS a reason that the names Father and Son exist and it wasn't to try and understand how both are one entity. Yes Son and Spirit are OF God, no doubt, but just as a man and woman wed and become AS one, so too are Father and Son. And, there has to be creation for Father and Son to have ANY meaning whatsoever. If this wasn't the intended meaning, God would have offered 'something different'.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,

I am plenty capable of discerning the difference between Father and Son as offered in the Word. .

No, sad to say your are not. You only think you are.

Prov 3:
[5] Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not rely on your own insight.

Jer 3
15]
"`And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

You reject the shepherds that he sends and say "I can reinvent the teachings myself with my own thinking, I don't need his Church which is the pillar and support of the truth". Sad but true.

If Christ is not God then we are not to worship him. The first commandment tells us we are to worship God alone.

 

[Johny]

I have a question. Lets say Jesus isn't God but we must accept Him as our saviour. Now wouldn't doing this be considered worshiping? I thought we weren't supposed to to worship anyone but God.

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks Thess.

I understand the tenor of your post and that it is not your intention to judge. But when you say that it is necessary for anyone to have the same perspective of God that you do, in order to be a Christian then you are in effect damning them. You are saying, believe as I do or go to hell. Now if that is not bad enough, by virtue of the fact that someone is born again and yet denies that Jesus is God, you are calling him and God a liar. Thess it is by the Spirit of God that man is born again, not through the belief that Jesus is God.

Now I have stated my faith in Christ and who Christ is, many times but for your benefit, I will repeat it. Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

Now some would say Thess that because your beliefs do not acknowledge the righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ, God’s son - that you are outside of the kingdom. But you know, I can’t, because I understand that it is not man’s position to sit in the Judgement seat of Christ even when those who do it, piously state that it is only correction.

And you know what confirms that it is really judgement? When they say something like – ‘you will find out when you stand before Christ as your judge how wrong you were.’ You see, they have already determined what the judgement will be and are therefore standing in judgement even now. And this sickens me to the stomach. It is a stench before God’s nostrils and scripture tells us that those who dwell in the righteousness of Christ do not do this.

 

[Imagican]

I have a question. Lets say Jesus isn't God but we must accept Him as our saviour. Now wouldn't doing this be considered worshiping? I thought we weren't supposed to to worship anyone but God.

Here ya go Johny,

You don't have it exactly right. We are told NOT to worship anyone or any thing AS God, except God. We are certainly to worship Christ AS the Son of God. This is a misconception that many have so it's not uncommon to hear this argument. The problem arises when just the opposite takes place.

If there is ONLY ONE GOD. Then making Christ God does nothing but make Him a 'false' god, an idol. I'm not going to sit here and tell you folks that this is the case. I am simply offering a possible explanation and what I believe. And, me personally, I believe that the Word backs up my understanding. I did not create this understanding. I have created NOTHING.

I simply thank God continuously for allowing His Son to offer what I now am NOT now liable for. Thanking Him for forgiving such a useless worm as myself and for the love that I DO NOT deserve or merit by my actions, but loving me regardless of my short fallings. I pray constantly for forgiveness and guidance. And I read, and I read, and I read. Sometimes I JUST read, mostly I have a study plan in mind before I go 'on a mission'.

I certainly Love Christ and worship Him for who He revealed Himself to be to me. I can't speak for others, but I know what I know and this is NOT something that anyone can really successfully argue. Much of the knowledge that I have obtained came NOT from my understanding or my intelligence, but from 'somewhere else'. I'm not one to tell others that God speaks to me. "God 'told' me this, or God told me that". I have gained insights though or revelations and I am well aware that these were NOT of my own doing.

Johny, let me offer you this: I knew practically NOTHING about God or Christ until I was saved. I buried myself in the Bible for a very long time before I sought out a church. Upon my attempts to find the 'right' place that I should be, I became exposed to the doctrine of 'trinity'. I had NO idea of this concept until exposed to it through the churches. At this point I was dumbfounded. After all the study and all the prayer. As I had experienced my relationship grow by leaps and bounds; how could God have left me so ignorant? I couldn't believe it. These people were SO sure of this 'trinity'. So sure in fact, that they offered that I could not possibly be saved without it. Boy, I was a mess.

So, it was time for a 'new' study. I diligently prayed, begged would be more like it, and then began my study. I started at the first page of the Bible and read through to the last page. And guess what? No 'trinity'. I then began a study on the 'trinity' itself. Who, when, where. That's when things began to get interesting. See, I told you that I was saved by nothing other than the 'grace of God'. NO CHURCH, NO PERSON, the grace of God.

As my study progressed I began to see 'trinity' for what it really is. I have offered much of this on this thread and a number of others.

Watch this Johny, I could NOT know of 'trinity' if not for 'someone' teaching it to me. IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. So, here's the deal:

Let's say I got stranded on a deserted island. I am walking along the beach one day and look down only to find Gideons Bible. I start reading this book and through the Word, I find Christ and accept Him as my Savior. Is it even conceivable that a God that loves us SO much would deny my Salvation because there was no one else on my island to 'teach' me this 'man-made' doctrine of 'trinity'?

Now, those that have accepted this doctrine base EVERYTHING on it. They INSIST that EVERYONE either accept it, or be denied Salvation. Doesn't this in itself offer enough suspicion of it to expose much of it's dubious nature? WHY? Why would these folks INSIST that I NEED to accept 'trinity'?

Trust me Johny, my relationship with the Father has been an up and down one. There have been times that through complete devotion that I knew Him intimately. Other times I must admit i have allowed the 'world' get in the way. But, even at times we were the closest, I KNEW NO 'trinity'.

So, there's a 'part' of your answer. We are to worship ONLY ONE GOD. And we are to worship nothing AS God, except God. NO where does the Bible offer that Christ is NOT worthy of worship. But, I believe, that we are to worship Him AS the Son of God. He told us Himself that the Father is greater than He. He told us Himself that His power came FROM the Father. We KNOW that RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT that Christ sits at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD. So, there you have it. Take it for what it's worth. Pray on it, study on it. But this is what I have been offered and NO man can take it from me. My life yes, my understanding NO.