The Deity of Christ

[Imagican]

Thanks Thess.

I understand the tenor of your post and that it is not your intention to judge. But when you say that it is necessary for anyone to have the same perspective of God that you do, in order to be a Christian then you are in effect damning them. You are saying, believe as I do or go to hell. Now if that is not bad enough, by virtue of the fact that someone is born again and yet denies that Jesus is God, you are calling him and God a liar. Thess it is by the Spirit of God that man is born again, not through the belief that Jesus is God.

Now I have stated my faith in Christ and who Christ is, many times but for your benefit, I will repeat it. Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

Now some would say Thess that because your beliefs do not acknowledge the righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ, God’s son - that you are outside of the kingdom. But you know, I can’t, because I understand that it is not man’s position to sit in the Judgement seat of Christ even when those who do it, piously state that it is only correction.

And you know what confirms that it is really judgement? When they say something like – ‘you will find out when you stand before Christ as your judge how wrong you were.’ You see, they have already determined what the judgement will be and are therefore standing in judgement even now. And this sickens me to the stomach. It is a stench before God’s nostrils and scripture tells us that those who dwell in the righteousness of Christ do not do this.

Mutz, Mutz, MUTZ!!!! Amen Brother.

See folks, this is what I am talking about. I have witnessed that our brother Mutz actually realizes that he IS UNWORTHY. Nothing but a 'low-life' sinner. If not for the grace of God and the sacrifice offered by His Son, he understands that he would be UTTERLY LOST. NO, not the acceptance of 'other men' and 'their' doctrine, BUT wholesome words from our God and our Savior, NOTHING more.

And not once have I observed his offering that he was able to 'judge' the Salvation of another. Please read what he has offered in this post. Take it to heart my friends, brothers and sisters, for it IS 'truth'. Only in the minds and hearts of those that believe 'they' are Gods will this acceptance or denial be found.

We were warned that there would come a time when men would 'cast out' those that accept Christ, actually murder them in the 'name of Christ', believing in their hearts that they did the will of God. But, these were only capable of doing such for they knew neither the Father nor the Son.

God Bless you brother, for I can 'truly' call you this. There are many things that we may disagree upon, but that you understand 'this' truth means that you and I 'are' of a certainty, members of the 'same' body.

Folks, God sent HIS SON to dwell among us. NO, God did NOT dwell among us in the flesh. He was certainly empowered by God to accomplish His task. But, HE HAD FREE WILL in the doing of it. If He had simply been God in the flesh, what would have been the big deal for God to deny temptation. It took JESUS CHRIST in the flesh to be exposed to what man must live through and OVERCOME, in order to 'defeat' death.

What I offer takes NOTHING from Jesus. I base EVERYTHING concerning my faith upon the Son of God. Without the sacrifice that He made i would be NOTHING and incapable of 'knowing God'. And let us thank God for sending His Son so that we could be offered such a sacrifice instead of having to pay the price ourselves. Thank you Father, and thank you Jesus. Amen.

 

[Imagican]

Thess,

I am plenty capable of discerning the difference between Father and Son as offered in the Word. .

No, sad to say your are not. You only think you are.

Prov 3:
[5] Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not rely on your own insight.

Jer 3
15]
"`And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

You reject the shepherds that he sends and say "I can reinvent the teachings myself with my own thinking, I don't need his Church which is the pillar and support of the truth". Sad but true.

Not hardly, I simply reject who 'you say' are the shepards that have been sent. Big difference here my friend.

If I have 're-invented' anything, it is a desire to worship God instead of men and their 'vain' teachings. NO, Thess, I DO NEED His Church, I just don't NEED yours. And it may be sad, and it may be true. But truth is what I strive for and only sad to those that would revel in my 'joining them' in their 'self-made' religion.

If Christ is not God then we are not to worship him. The first commandment tells us we are to worship God alone.

Wrong again. Only in your limited understanding based on what you have been forced to accept by the religion that you choose to follow.

We are simply NOT to worship Christ or anything else AS God. Remember, we shall have NO Gods before Him. I don't worship Christ AS God, I worship Christ as exactly who HE offered He IS: The SON OF GOD. I have ONLY ONE GOD. And there is ONLY ONE SON. I do NOT worship them AS the same. I pray in the name of Jesus, I thank Jesus, but I pray to God AS GOD. And coming from someone that worships carved images of men and women this is a 'pretty bold statement': If Christ is not God then we are not to worship him. The first commandment tells us we are to worship God alone.

Listen budro, Christ Himself was asked HOW SHOULD WE PRAY. I will leave it up to you to read the answer. Now, these words were offered BY CHRIST HIMSELF. Should I simply ignore this and 'do it your way', simply because His Way doesn't seem to please you? Not likely.

Thess, what you fail to realize through your being 'taught' to follow men is that through doing this you are worshiping 'them'. Your church has NOT taught the 'same' thing since it's formation. There have been MANY changes. You sit there and try and convince others that Peter formed your church and it's been the same way ever since. That IT is the ONLY true church. Totally untrue. There has been SO much introduced into this religion that it is barely recognizable from a Biblical standpoint. And you have bought into this 'lock, stock and barrel. i feel for ya brother, but you can't take me with ya.

And I believe that if things were as they have been in the past, that me offering these words would have probably enraged those like you to the point that they would have enjoyed NOTHING better than to 'witness' me burnt at the stake. Reveling in my screams of torment, and hating me all the more for following something that they couldn't even understand.

 

[mutzrein]

Thankyou Imagican

When I read your testimony some time ago I was then as I am now, moved to tears and humbled once again at the realisation of the wondrous grace of God shown to us. We have certainly done nothing to deserve His love and there is nothing that we could do that would make Him love us more. Christ has done it all that we may know Him.

And yes as brothers in the Lord we are one. One in Christ, born of one Spirit. Praise God!

So we disagree on some things huh? Well, one thing I know - they are not things necessary for our salvation. :wink:

Bless you bro

 

[thessalonian]

Mutz,

I would appreciate it if you would not try to tell me what kind of logical conclusions I should come up with based on your theology. I understand how you come to those conclusions but my understanding is different and takes in to account something called "invincible ignorance". Not what you probably consider a nice term but nethertheless it's point is that God is the one that gives all men grace for their salvation. He gives men certain levels of grace for knowledge and understanding. One may not have grace for a certain level of understanding but may have sufficient grace for understanding. The scriptures tell us "to whom much has been given much is expected". Thus the one who recieves the greater grace of understanding actually will be judged by a higher standard than the one who has been given less grace of understanding. Luke 12 v. 35- 48 or so, gives us an example in which a man has the responsibility of steward while the master is away. When the Master returns he finds him doing well and rewards him. Yet another senario is spoken of where the master delays. This time the steward acts unjustly toward the servants and is treated accordingly as the unbeliver. Yet it says in that chapter "but to the one who did not know he will be given but few lashes."..

I also offer as evidence of my Catholic views Cornelius in Acts 10, 11 who is said to be a "God fearing and righteous man". Now last I checked the God fearing and righteous were not bound for hell. The three wise men were not Christian, likely did not identify Christ as the son of God, yet I have little doudt they are in heaven, though they did not likely know of all that Christ did. The Good Samaritan is held up as an example of "Christian behavior" even though Samaritans were a mixture of Egyptian paganism and Judaism.

One last thing, I see you and Imagican claiming some list of what is neccessary and not neccessary for salvation. By what authority do you make such lists?

Blessings

 

[DivineNames]

Perhaps the Trinitarians could explain exactly what they mean by 3 persons being 1 God? What are these "persons"? Are they "distinct centres of consciousness and will"? Something like that? Something else?

If you don't accept that the Son is God, then what exactly?

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks again Thess. I appreciate your response but aren’t you accusing me of exactly the same thing you are doing?
When you say, “I would appreciate it if you would not try to tell me what kind of logical conclusions I should come up with based on your theology.†. . .

I can say the same thing straight back to you. In fact you were the one who initiated it by telling me the kind of logical conclusion that I should come up with based on your theology. That is, by telling me your interpretation of scripture, which is that in order to be a Christian I must believe that Jesus is God. And there is only one logical conclusion to this and that is since I don’t, I am not a Christian.

You have already indicated that God gives grace according to man’s different levels of knowledge and understanding. Now in saying that, do you not concede therefore that the grace extended to me is sufficient for my salvation? Surely you must, and therefore you are in no position to say that I am not a Christian. Now I’m not concerned whether you believe your reward will be greater based on your superior gift or understanding of it. It is not relevant. Each of us, to our own master, stands or falls.

Now I am well aware of the grace of God and I am well aware that each of us is responsible to our own master. I am responsible to God for the gift of life that He has given me and so you need to be responsible to God for whatever gift you have received from Him. Therefore I don’t believe it is right for you to pass judgement on the servant to whom the Master has given another gift.

Why not just accept that God’s grace is extended to whoever God elects to give it, and refrain from calling anyone that does not fit within the bounds of your doctrine a non-Christian.

As far as claiming to have a list of the things necessary for salvation is concerned, what is that all about? I haven’t made a list and if Imagican has drawn up one he certainly hasn’t shown it to me.

 

[thessalonian]

Thanks again Thess. I appreciate your response but aren’t you accusing me of exactly the same thing you are doing?
When you say, “I would appreciate it if you would not try to tell me what kind of logical conclusions I should come up with based on your theology.†. . .

Here is the text in question. Perhaps you can show me where I have told you what you believe?

But when you say that it is necessary for anyone to have the same perspective of God that you do, in order to be a Christian then you are in effect damning them. You are saying, believe as I do or go to hell.

I can say the same thing straight back to you. In fact you were the one who initiated it by telling me the kind of logical conclusion that I should come up with based on your theology. That is, by telling me your interpretation of scripture, which is that in order to be a Christian I must believe that Jesus is God. And there is only one logical conclusion to this and that is since I don’t, I am not a Christian.

I state my views and interpretations on scripture. You of course can take them or leave them. Sorry you don't like me stating them as fact. I actually do not believe that you can come to a fullness of the truth with merely logical conclusions. Like Peter it also requires the grace of God. "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.".

You have already indicated that God gives grace according to man’s different levels of knowledge and understanding. Now in saying that, do you not concede therefore that the grace extended to me is sufficient for my salvation? Surely you must, and therefore you are in no position to say that I am not a Christian. Now I’m not concerned whether you believe your reward will be greater based on your superior gift or understanding of it. It is not relevant. Each of us, to our own master, stands or falls.

Each man recieves the grace neccessary for his salvation. That is what I believe. What you missed is that I do not expressly believe that all of those who are not Christian at the end of this life are bound for hell. I do not know if God gave them the grace to become a Christian, knowing him in his fullness. That is not my call. Cornelius was said to be "righteous and God fearing" BEFORE he became a Christian in Acts 10. The three wise men were not Christian, yet I think it quite possible they are in heaven. Jesus holds the good samaritan as an example of good Christian behavior, even though Samaritans were a mix of paganism and judaism.

Now I am well aware of the grace of God and I am well aware that each of us is responsible to our own master.

There is only one master. That master is the trinitarian God. There is no other.

I am responsible to God for the gift of life that He has given me and so you need to be responsible to God for whatever gift you have received from Him. Therefore I don’t believe it is right for you to pass judgement on the servant to whom the Master has given another gift.

There is only one Master, who is the triune God. As I said I do not tell you whether you are damned or not. I even believe you may not be but it's not my call. I can't help the conclusions you draw. Sorry it offends you that I say that non-trinitarians are not Christian. You can talk to the mods and have them sensor me if they will. At which time you will have succeeded in silencing me because I will leave the board. I am not expecting it to happen. I will not compromise and call you and those on this board like you Christian because that would not be loving you. I would be lying to myself and to you.

Why not just accept that God’s grace is extended to whoever God elects to give it, and refrain from calling anyone that does not fit within the bounds of your doctrine a non-Christian.

God's grace works externally on all men. But it does not make them all Christians and become internal. Sorry.

As far as claiming to have a list of the things necessary for salvation is concerned, what is that all about? I haven’t made a list and if Imagican has drawn up one he certainly hasn’t shown it to me.

No, you have not made up a list but you keep saying things like "I don't see in the Bible where it says belief x is neccessary for salvation.". If belief x is scriptural (which trinitarian theology is) it is absolutely neccessary for salvation for those who read scripture with an open, unbiased mind. Those who deny it stubbornly are damned. I even believe that if Jesus is not God (though he is) and I worship him (which I do) I am among the damned. But that's just me and my logic. I don't know what you think.

Blessings

 

[DivineNames]

Perhaps the Trinitarians could explain exactly what they mean by 3 persons being 1 God? What are these "persons"? Are they "distinct centres of consciousness and will"? Something like that? Something else?

If you don't accept that the Son is God, then what exactly?

So the Christians here are arguing about something, but what exactly they do not know.