Bible Study The devil incarnate?

[Gabbylittleangel]

There is a lot of teaching in recent years (that I agree with) about how God gave the earth to a man, it was a man that lost it, so that is why Jesus had to become a man in order to get it back. (Theology in a nutshell)

My thought on the topic is this. If Adam (a man) lost it, so it took Jesus (a man) to save it ~ how did the devil get his hands on it unless the devil is also incarnate?

 

[Atonement]

I don't have all the answers, but I do believe when Adam fell. It not only disrupted the physical world, but also the spiritual world. God will one day create a New Heaven and a New Earth. All old things will pass away and all things will be new. Maybe by the fall of Adam, Satan (spiritually speaking) got the keys to have his time here until the time of Christ?

 

[yesha]

How about, if the fullness of Christ is in the whole of the church, then the fullness of the Devil is likewise, in the wholeness of man.

 

[destiny]

There is a lot of teaching in recent years (that I agree with) about how God gave the earth to a man, it was a man that lost it, so that is why Jesus had to become a man in order to get it back. (Theology in a nutshell)

My thought on the topic is this. If Adam (a man) lost it, so it took Jesus (a man) to save it ~ how did the devil get his hands on it unless the devil is also incarnate?

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Unredeemed man has always been satans gambit in this world, even from the beginning in Eden.

Isn't it true that we wrestle not against flesh and blood in this world?
We were subject to demonic influence from the very beginning because they were already here.

A good question is, why did God create man among satan and the demons? Why did God choose to create man in the same place that he cast satan and His demons to?

 

[yesha]

A good question is, why did God create man among satan and the demons? Why did God choose to create man in the same place that he cast satan and His demons to?

I don't think man or Satan fell until Satan tempted man.
Man was Satans forbidden fruit, in a sense.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I don't think man or Satan fell until Satan tempted man.
Man was Satans forbidden fruit, in a sense.

Indeed.
It is my belief that the fall of the devil occurred moments before he appears in the Garden of Eden, when he set his heart on causing the fall of man. Perhaps it was just moments before when he tried to overthrow God's throne, and was cast to earth.

Eze 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I believe that can be supported by the fact that Gen 1:31 tells us that everything that God had made was very good. For it to be very good, there was no sin ~ at least up to that point. Gen 2:1 tells us that creation was finished on the seventh day.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Because God beheld His creation, and all of it was "very good", I believe that Genesis 3:1-6 not only shows us the fall of man, but I also believe that this also records is the attempt of the devil to over throw the throne of God and his being cast to the earth.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I remember watching a science and nature program many years ago where they were showing the skeleton of a serpent, and a place on this skeleton where it looked as if it used to have legs.

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

The Devil

My thought on the topic is this. If Adam (a man) lost it, so it took Jesus (a man) to save it ~ how did the devil get his hands on it unless the devil is also incarnate?

The Devil and his demons may of course, choose to 'incarnate' themselves, by possession of a living creature's physical body. By this method, and through deception of humans they can further make war against The Most High, here on Earth, in the physical world.

As far as The Devil having his own physical manifestation on Earth, in a body, I suppose it's possible. My understanding is however, that angels are beings made up of spirit and intellect, and do not have physical bodies in the sense an incarnate man does. Though I myself, could be wrong on this point. After all, angels have appeared as men, in The Holy Scripture, but as to the nature of their bodies I'm not certain.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

 

[Georges]

Since this a thread on Satan...I thought I would paste the Jewish encyclopedia article on Satan for some interesting reading....

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... arch=Satan

 

[destiny]

A good question is, why did God create man among satan and the demons? Why did God choose to create man in the same place that he cast satan and His demons to?

I don't think man or Satan fell until Satan tempted man.
Man was Satans forbidden fruit, in a sense.

Luke 10:17-18 seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

Satan was a fallen creature the moment he rebelled against God. Pride was satans forbidden fruit; This is the reason God cast him out of heaven.
He was a fallen creature before he tempted man.

 

[yesha]

Gen 3:14
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
(NIV)

If this curse is to Satan, then I would say that this is when his fall occured.

However, it should be considered:

Rev 12:5-9
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down-- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
(NIV)

This appears to give a time for the fall, well, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it was after Adam's time.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Quantum physics!?! :wink:

 

[Bick]

We can all speculate and by taking a text out of context come up with possible answers, but let's use all the scriptures applicable.

First, let's study what is written about Satan, the Devil, the dragon, the ancient serpent. These titles are given in Rev. 12:9, the last book of the Bible.

Notice, "Lucifer" or "Son of the morning" is not listed.

Facts: Satan never called an angel, even though we read in 2 Cor. 11:14, NIV, "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."
But "angel" in Greek means "messenger". It doesn't mean that Satan is an angel, a spirit being who is either a messenger for God, or for Satan.

I know from those passages in Ezek. and Isaiah many teach that Satan was first created perfect until pride came into his heart, and he was determined to be like the Most High, and this was his downfall; but I don't see it that way.

I believe God is the Sovereign Lord of the universe, and created all things through the Word, His Son, Christ Jesus. And because of His great love for all his creatures, He has planned to show forth how great His love is, by being their Saviour. And, to need a Saviour, man must be lost, and that is what happened in and through Adam.

The name Satan means "adversary". He is called a murderer (manslayer), the hater, a liar, an opposing spirit. IMO, he was created as the "adversary" needed in God's plans.

More later, Bick

 

[cyberjosh]

There is a lot of teaching in recent years (that I agree with) about how God gave the earth to a man, it was a man that lost it, so that is why Jesus had to become a man in order to get it back.

What do you mean "man lost it"? Physically, or in terms of dominionship, or...? Why do you think this is some big theological issue? Just asking.

The true loss and redemption between Adam and Jesus is as related in Romans chapter 5:

"12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous....21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

That is the real reason Jesus came.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

What do you mean "man lost it"? Physically, or in terms of dominionship, or...? Why do you think this is some big theological issue? Just asking..

You pretty much answered you own question in the passage that you posted. "man lost it" ~ it being everything that was lost in the fall.

The true loss and redemption between Adam and Jesus is as related in Romans chapter 5:

"12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous....21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

That is the real reason Jesus came.

The teaching that has been a popular topic for many years now has been surrounding the question "Why did Jesus have to become a man?". The question has been asked in different ways, usually up against something along the lines of "Why wasn't there some other way? Some other plan?"
Lots of very good teaching has come to light, and most of it seems to come to the bottom line that Jesus had to become a man to redeem the world because Adam, who was a man, through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men.
The bottom line being, that in order to save man, Jesus had to become a man.

My thought on the topic is this. If Adam (a man) lost it, so it took Jesus (a man) to save it ~ how did the devil get his hands on it unless the devil is also incarnate?

perhaps it should read: how did the devil get his hands on us, unless the devil is also incarnate?

 

[Bick]

For Gabbylittleangel and others, I would strongly agree with what Cybershark quoted. And I strongly recommend that all of chapt. 5 of Romans be read a number of times, and carefully studied.

Since our human opinions prove nothing on this subject, here are some scriptures describing Satan, the devil:

John 8:44, "You belong to your father, the devil, and want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him." NIV.

1 John 3:7,8. "He who does right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." NIV.

2 Cor. 11:14, "And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into an angel of light." angel=messenger CV.

2 Cor. 4:3,4, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believed not..." AV.

IMO, Satan (and, no doubt, his co-horts) are working on the minds of unbelievers, to lead them astray from the truth. He cannot literally "get his hands on us".

Bick

 

[Georges]

There is a lot of teaching in recent years (that I agree with) about how God gave the earth to a man, it was a man that lost it, so that is why Jesus had to become a man in order to get it back.

What do you mean "man lost it"? Physically, or in terms of dominionship, or...? Why do you think this is some big theological issue? Just asking.

The true loss and redemption between Adam and Jesus is as related in Romans chapter 5:

"12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned... 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous....21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

That is the real reason Jesus came.

If that is the case....why didn't Jane come instead of Jesus....seems to me Eve was the one who sinned first....not Adam...

If by one woman sin came into the world.....wouldn't one woman need to make it righteous....?

 

[cyberjosh]

Well said Bick.

Gabby said:

Lots of very good teaching has come to light, and most of it seems to come to the bottom line that Jesus had to become a man to redeem the world because Adam, who was a man, through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men.
The bottom line being, that in order to save man, Jesus had to become a man.

So when you say "redeem the world" you meant man and not physical grass and dirt "earth"? If so then your statement "God gave the earth to a man, it was a man that lost it" would have meant something like this: "Man lost himself." This is a little odd, or maybe it just sounds that way. Were you talking about the same thing in those posts or two different things? If two different things then why? That confused me.

And to dig deeper into why Jesus had to become a physical man I would look first into the sacrificial system, and why it was ordained (why did a physical animal have to be slaughtered?), and also how Jesus served a dual/multiple purpose by becoming a man in line with other prophecies concerning him made specifically to Israel which would have to be fulfilled literally (which some involved physical fulfillment). You would also have to look into why those relevant prophecies were made, and under what circumstances were they made by God. I realize that what I just told you would be a huge study, but that should begin to point you in the right direction.

 

[cyberjosh]

If that is the case....why didn't Jane come instead of Jesus....seems to me Eve was the one who sinned first....not Adam...

Oh go choke on a NRSV Bible which is as picky about gender as you are. :D

And who is Jane? In what ways is she qualified to die for my sins? Does she have a phD? :D

Actually now that I think about it, who said Jane's a girl....? :D

"Man" for centuries has been a generic designation for humankind. No doubt you've heard of "mankind" as a blanket statement for all humans.


P.S. I couldn't help but mess w/ you.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

So when you say "redeem the world" you meant man and not physical grass and dirt "earth"? If so then your statement "God gave the earth to a man, it was a man that lost it" would have meant something like this: "Man lost himself." This is a little odd, or maybe it just sounds that way. Were you talking about the same thing in those posts or two different things? If two different things then why? That confused me.

As in "God so loved the world..."

 

[cyberjosh]

As in "God so loved the world..."

Thank you for the clarification. But still doesn't explain the usage when you said, "God gave the earth to a man". I guess what I'm driving at is trying to find out what you think God came to save. I think by "world" in John 3:16 he was refering to the people in the world, not the creation (planet) itself. But when you say God gave the earth to man I still visualise you meaning "God gave mankind to man". And you said earlier that you agree that God came to redeem man.

This is where I'm confused, and would like you to elaborate. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just want to understand you. So please bear with me.