The Devils Believe...are they damned?

[Caroline H]

What are you getting at?

 

[follower of Christ]

It doesn't say...if you only believe He's real but don't believe He has all power then....you are damned. "The devils believed. Those that believe are not damned." No more, no less.

And AGAIN they BELIEVE because they were THERE, poster....they were ANGELS along with the OTHER ANGELS...they HAVE to believe.
That is NOT the same as belief unto salvation which demons DO NOT HAVE because they are already CONDEMNED.

 

[follower of Christ]

Mark is about preaching the gospel and "those that believeth not shall be damned." He is the gospel, He is the Word, He is Christ, He is God. The devils believe there is one God.

Maybe what is meant is one must not simply believe in God but believe in the "message of" the gospel. But, is that written anywhere? Isn't it written that one must believe in Him? Does it say one must believe in the Gospel?

The GOSPEL is for MANKIND, NOT DEMONKIND whom has ALREADY BEEN CONDEMNED and SENTENCED PASSED!

 

[follower of Christ]

according to the way you present the word believe,yes, the devils know the lord is real but that is more an acknowledgement of truth, but not the requirement of salvation.

Jason. I'm not presenting the word believe in any way other than how it is written. I have quoted His Word. I will again say...this is not about salvation.

Its not ABOUT salvation yet you are USING passages and concepts relating TO salvation.
But of course you cant keep anything else in context, so why should we expect you to here.

 

[follower of Christ]

But...they are not about two different things. They are about belief. As I wrote to Free....

Wrong, poster....they ARE TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS !
I can BELIEVE that Obama is president of this country and NOT BELIEVE in him as a leader.
One is about his EXISTENCE, the other is about my FAITH in the man.
Demons BELIEVE in God...His EXISTENCE....they VERY CLEARLY do NOT HAVE FAITH style BELIEF in Him or theyd not have given up their position.
The WORD is the same but it ISNT the SAME CONCEPT.
Do we really have to break out a dictionary for you here, WW ?
Do you SEE the DIFFERING CONCEPTS here with the word BELIEVE ? ;)

BELIEVE
1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>

2 : to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>

3 : to hold an opinion : think <I believe so>transitive verb 1 a : to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> b : to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>

2 : to hold as an opinion : suppose <I believe it will rain soon>

I BELIEVE that Bush was president but I did not BELIEVE in his policies.
ONE is about the simple knowledge the man WAS president.
The SECOND is about my OPINION of the mans practices.

Good grief....

 

[Free]

I don't see them in different contexts at all. In Mark the subject is preaching the gospel and believing in that gospel. What is the gospel? The Word. Who is the Word. Jesus Christ. In James the devils believe that "there is one God." Do they believe in another God? No...they "believest that there is one God." That God is the Word, the gospel.

I know you don't see them in different contexts, that is the problem. Look at what you wrote: "In James the devils believe that "there is one God." Do they believe in another God?"

Believing that there is one God and believing in that one God for salvation are two completely different things.

But Free....they believed. That is my point.

They do not believe in the sense that you are saying they do. That's my point.

I didn't say they believed for salvation. I didn't mention salvation. The devils believed....those that believe shall not be damned. Those are our Father's Words. They won't go away so...what do they mean?

Follow me closely because I'm getting tired of making the same point over and over. I never said you mentioned salvation. I mentioned salvation because that is what Mark is speaking of but not what James is speaking of. There is belief in something that leads to salvation; there is belief about something which is just a statement of fact. There is a HUGE difference between given mere mental assent to something and putting your faith, hope and trust in that something. I believe the devil exists; I don't put my belief in him. You are using two different verses, speaking about two different things, and are trying to make a connection that isn't there. That is why you are so "confused" about the matter.

Although, I don't think you are confused at all. People have answered and given some very reasonable responses but you don't want to hear what others have to say. I think that you have a belief formed around what you think these two verses are saying, which leads me to believe that this was just a troll.

 

[whirlwind]

What are you getting at?

I'm trying to reconcile the two scriptures. If these devils are indeed demons being spoken of then are they not damned? In one verse it tells us that those that believe are not damned and in another we are told these devils "believe." So, the question arises....are they damned?

Either the devils are people with Satan's spirit in them and, although not "saved" neither are they damned and will be taught throughout the millennium. Or...the word "believing" which carries the same definition in both verses, somehow applies to something other than belief in Him....such as belief in the gospel. Of course, to me the gospel is Christ which would nullify that thought.

That is what I'm "getting at."

 

[whirlwind]

It doesn't say...if you only believe He's real but don't believe He has all power then....you are damned. "The devils believed. Those that believe are not damned." No more, no less.

And AGAIN they BELIEVE because they were THERE, poster....they were ANGELS along with the OTHER ANGELS...they HAVE to believe.
That is NOT the same as belief unto salvation which demons DO NOT HAVE because they are already CONDEMNED.

Again...it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. I don't care when they believed or where they believed...the point being made is....they believed and those that believe are not damned.

 

[Caroline H]

This has been explained to you already, and we are all getting tired of going round in circles. If you can't understand the simple fact that Mark was talking about believing in salvation, V's James talking about belief in the existence of God... well then I assume this thread has run its course. You came in here with a specific agenda to "reconcile" two passages that have nothing to do with one another because you somehow think that all passages are completely tied up into one another and that everything is allegory and mystic. This is not Bible study, it is a massacre of God's holy word.

 

[whirlwind]

This has been explained to you already, and we are all getting tired of going round in circles. If you can't understand the simple fact that Mark was talking about believing in salvation, V's James talking about belief in the existence of God... well then I assume this thread has run its course. You came in here with a specific agenda to "reconcile" two passages that have nothing to do with one another because you somehow think that all passages are completely tied up into one another and that everything is allegory and mystic. This is not Bible study, it is a massacre of God's holy word.

If everyone is satisfied with their understanding then....I'm okay with that. But does it have to be my understanding too? I'm not forcing you to try to see the question it presents. If you're happy...so be it.

 

[stovebolts]

But that's just it, I don't think they need to be justified at all because they are talking about two completely different things.

But...they are not about two different things. They are about belief. As I wrote to Free....


I don't see them in different contexts at all. In Mark the subject is preaching the gospel and believing in that gospel. What is the gospel? The Word. Who is the Word. Jesus Christ. In James the devils believe that "there is one God." Do they believe in another God? No...they "]believest that there is one God." That God is the Word, the gospel.

I don't think it's a matter of belief Whirlwind, but rather, what does one believe?

Galatians 1:3-8 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Simply put, we believe that Christ was the son of God, that he was crucified, died and on the third day was raised again. We believe that when we die, we will also be raised again and will united with Christ and God in heaven. In short, this is the good news Jesus talked about and is considered gospel.

I think however that it goes further than this in regard to how this gospel is expressed in our daily living and loosely related to this subject, I see Romans 1 touching on this, which seems to flow nicely with what Peter says in 2 Peter 2:4-10 and what James is saying in the verses your referencing.

Personally, I don't think that the Bible speaks of salvation from an easy believism perspective. In other words, one simply does not believe one thing and live another way... Demons believe in God, and they are fearful of God (Luke 8:28-31) for they know they are damned at the appropriate time...

Matthew 8:28-29 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

The demons believe they will be tormented... Theirs is not our gospel.

As far as believing in one God, that would reference a portion of the Shema. Hear O' Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your streangth. And these words which I command you this day will be in your heart.

You see, fear has no place in God's command. Saul, the first King of Israel believed in God, but he did not keep the Lord's command, and his heart was full of fear when it came to his enemies...

Grace and peace Sister.

Jeff

 

[handy]

Right Jeff.

WW, you said, "What is the gospel? The Word. Who is the Word. Jesus Christ."

I think you are misunderstanding the gospel here. The gospel isn't just another title for Jesus. The gospel isn't Jesus. The gospel is that man now has a way of salvation through Jesus' death on the cross.

Again, the gospel isn't Jesus, it is what Jesus did on the cross, which was to die to pay the wages of sin for mankind. The gospel is exclusive to mankind, not to the demons. There is no text, no verses, nothing at all that indicate that demons come to repentance and can share in the work of the cross.

Because there is no text even concerning the matter, the reasons as to why God doesn't extend salvation to the demons can only be guessed at. I believe it has to do with the fact that they are far more aware of God's holy nature, having at one time been completely in harmony with it. With the exception of Adam, all men are born outside of God and must come to a place of being brought into God's holy presence. This is done via the gospel, the fact that Christ took on our penalty for our sin. It was the exact opposite with the demons, they were created within God's holy presence and were cast out of it.

At any rate, WW, I do believe your confusion is because of the misunderstanding of what the gospel is: that Jesus paid for the sins of men (men, not demons) on the cross, not just that He is God.

 

[handy]

Adding this just in case there is still confusion:

WW you said, "Again...it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. I don't care when they believed or where they believed...the point being made is....they believed and those that believe are not damned."

The key text you provided is Mark 16:16. But, the context of Mark 16:16 is Mark 16:15, which says, "Go into the world and preach the gospel..." The point of Mark 16:16 is the fact that it is the gospel and the gospel has everything to do with salvation. You can talk about God without talking about salvation.

You CANNOT talk of the gospel without talking of salvation.

 

[whirlwind]

Thank you Jeff....your post led me to find what I believe is the answer. I first found another verse saying those that believe on Him aren't ashamed which is very much as the devils believing in one God....

• Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

But then I believe the answer has been provided by scripture...as it should be. We have:

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  
  2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, the belief must be in truth. As the gospel is truth......

• John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Then the believing that must be done to not be damned is...in the gospel, in the truth. Although He is the Word, He is the gospel, there is belief in Him and belief in the meaning of Him. The devils believe in Him but not in the gospel, not in the meaning of the Word. Apparently...so do people.

 

[whirlwind]

Right Jeff.

WW, you said, "What is the gospel? The Word. Who is the Word. Jesus Christ."

I think you are misunderstanding the gospel here. The gospel isn't just another title for Jesus. The gospel isn't Jesus. The gospel is that man now has a way of salvation through Jesus' death on the cross.

Again, the gospel isn't Jesus, it is what Jesus did on the cross, which was to die to pay the wages of sin for mankind. The gospel is exclusive to mankind, not to the demons. There is no text, no verses, nothing at all that indicate that demons come to repentance and can share in the work of the cross.

Because there is no text even concerning the matter, the reasons as to why God doesn't extend salvation to the demons can only be guessed at. I believe it has to do with the fact that they are far more aware of God's holy nature, having at one time been completely in harmony with it. With the exception of Adam, all men are born outside of God and must come to a place of being brought into God's holy presence. This is done via the gospel, the fact that Christ took on our penalty for our sin. It was the exact opposite with the demons, they were created within God's holy presence and were cast out of it.

At any rate, WW, I do believe your confusion is because of the misunderstanding of what the gospel is: that Jesus paid for the sins of men (men, not demons) on the cross, not just that He is God.

Thank you Handy,

I have a difficult time separating the Gospel from The Word. To me they are the same.

 

[Caroline H]

Then the believing that must be done to not be damned is...in the gospel, in the truth. Although He is the Word, He is the gospel, there is belief in Him and belief in the meaning of Him. The devils believe in Him but not in the gospel, not in the meaning of the Word. Apparently...so do people.

That's right, that's what we've been talking about

 

[whirlwind]

Then the believing that must be done to not be damned is...in the gospel, in the truth. Although He is the Word, He is the gospel, there is belief in Him and belief in the meaning of Him. The devils believe in Him but not in the gospel, not in the meaning of the Word. Apparently...so do people.

That's right, that's what we've been talking about

Not that I don't believe and appreciate what you've "been talking about," it is necessary for me to see it proven Scripturally. Remember when I wrote....

Mark is about preaching the gospel and "those that believeth not shall be damned." He is the gospel, He is the Word, He is Christ, He is God. The devils believe there is one God.

Maybe what is meant is one must not simply believe in God but believe in the "message of" the gospel. But, is that written anywhere? Isn't it written that one must believe in Him? Does it say one must believe in the Gospel?

That was answered by Scripture...

• 11 Thessalonians 2:11-13 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

.

That verse not only answered what must be believed in but is interesting in that those that are damned not only didn't believe the truth (for there are many misled people) but also "had pleasure in unrighteousness." That is His saving grace for many of us. We may not know or believe the truth when taught but to be damned we also have to take pleasure in wickedness. And even then He has the caveat..."might be damned."

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Whirlwind and I am glad that you found what you were looking for

That's what I love about being a Christian. We are always asking, always seeking and always knocking. Our life with Jesus is not static, but rather a journey.

Praise God and may God grant you peace.

Jeff