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The Disciple and Politics

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THE DISCIPLE AND POLITICS

About half of the debates on this forum which concern political issues of one sort or another are based on what is basically a terribly false premise.

That premise is that Christians have a right, duty, or obligation, to participate in the politics of the land: in most cases on this forum, that means America.

The most recent examples are about gay marriage, but there have been many other political subjects which have come up.

The Scriptural fact of the matter is that disciples of Christ have, or should have nothing whatsoever to do with the politics of the world: whichever country that happens to mean in any given instance.

I say that for several reasons, all scriptural.

1 John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

There is no avoiding the force of these words. Other versions say basically the same thing:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” ESV

John 18:36 "My kingdom is not founded in this world — if it were, my servants would have fought to prevent my being handed over to the Jews. But in fact my kingdom is not founded on all this!" Phillips

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." RSV


John 18:36 Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.’ Young’s Literal

There are probably many other such translations, but these will suffice.

Let us draw out the consequences of this bald statement:

1. Jesus’ Kingdom is not a worldly one: it is yet to be established:

Dan 2.44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Both these passages (and numerous others in the OT especially) clearly speak of the end of human rule and dominion ON THIS PLANET, AND ITS REPLACEMENT BY THE DIVINE.

That has not happened YET, AND THE CITIZENS OF THAT KINGDOM TO COME, must behave as if that is really the case, and distance themselves from the politics of the present world.

The Lord’s Prayer makes this abundantly clear: ‘Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ is clearly an unfulfilled prayer AS YET.

It follows, therefore, that His disciples have an allegiance to THAT kingdom, not to ANY earthly one. As Paul says,

Col 1.13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Heb 11.9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

This is the true status of the disciple of Christ – like Abraham and the others mentioned in Hebrews 11, we are strangers and sojourners in the world, not citizens of it. He further says:

Eph 2.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

If the saints are from all the countries of the world, then clearly, they are not of any single country, and must not act as if they are or were.


2 Jesus in Jn 18.36 quoted above, and in the Sermon on the Mount where He commands us to turn the other cheek, is clearly stating the His disciples have a non-participant role in the wars and political practices and issues of the day.

3 There is no instance of any of the disciples and apostles taking part in any kind of political endeavour whatsoever. Some, like the Ethiopian eunuch, held high office at the time of their conversion. Whether they continued in those positions is not known.

4 Soldiers are effectively told to get out of the army by John the Baptist when he said: ‘Do violence to no man’. And turning the other cheek during a battle is not recommended practice in many military training manuals, and will inevitably result in the individual being shot.

So a disciple is to be a non- participant in politics, and a non-combatant in wars.

The price for that may well be imprisonment or death, but that is a price the disciple is prepared to pay for the sake of Him who died for us.

As Daniel said: 4: 17 […] the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

That being the case, we can easily understand the actions of those in positions of power. They can confidently be expected to act basely, and that should come as no surprise to the disciple.

The Psalmist said the same thing, in so many words:

Ps 146.3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Don't vote for them - after all you'll be voting for the 'basest of men'.

Lay aside your claims to 'rights', and take the position that you have none.

But pay your taxes (Jesus did), and obey the laws of the country as far as is consistent with the laws of God. 'Be subject to the higher powers' Paul says.

Those are our instructions.
 
is that disciples of Christ have, or should have nothing whatsoever to do with the politics of the world:
I disagree, and believe the Biblical case is strong that Christians should be involved in politics.

1 John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
There is no avoiding the force of these words.
These words have been greatly misunderstood:

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here.

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.
 
THE DISCIPLE AND POLITICS

About half of the debates on this forum which concern political issues of one sort or another are based on what is basically a terribly false premise.

That premise is that Christians have a right, duty, or obligation, to participate in the politics of the land: in most cases on this forum, that means America.

The most recent examples are about gay marriage, but there have been many other political subjects which have come up.

The Scriptural fact of the matter is that disciples of Christ have, or should have nothing whatsoever to do with the politics of the world: whichever country that happens to mean in any given instance.

I say that for several reasons, all scriptural.

1 John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

There is no avoiding the force of these words. Other versions say basically the same thing:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.†ESV

John 18:36 "My kingdom is not founded in this world — if it were, my servants would have fought to prevent my being handed over to the Jews. But in fact my kingdom is not founded on all this!" Phillips

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." RSV


John 18:36 Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.’ Young’s Literal

There are probably many other such translations, but these will suffice.

Let us draw out the consequences of this bald statement:

1. Jesus’ Kingdom is not a worldly one: it is yet to be established:

Dan 2.44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Both these passages (and numerous others in the OT especially) clearly speak of the end of human rule and dominion ON THIS PLANET, AND ITS REPLACEMENT BY THE DIVINE.

That has not happened YET, AND THE CITIZENS OF THAT KINGDOM TO COME, must behave as if that is really the case, and distance themselves from the politics of the present world.

The Lord’s Prayer makes this abundantly clear: ‘Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ is clearly an unfulfilled prayer AS YET.

It follows, therefore, that His disciples have an allegiance to THAT kingdom, not to ANY earthly one. As Paul says,

Col 1.13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Heb 11.9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

This is the true status of the disciple of Christ – like Abraham and the others mentioned in Hebrews 11, we are strangers and sojourners in the world, not citizens of it. He further says:

Eph 2.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

If the saints are from all the countries of the world, then clearly, they are not of any single country, and must not act as if they are or were.


2 Jesus in Jn 18.36 quoted above, and in the Sermon on the Mount where He commands us to turn the other cheek, is clearly stating the His disciples have a non-participant role in the wars and political practices and issues of the day.

3 There is no instance of any of the disciples and apostles taking part in any kind of political endeavour whatsoever. Some, like the Ethiopian eunuch, held high office at the time of their conversion. Whether they continued in those positions is not known.

4 Soldiers are effectively told to get out of the army by John the Baptist when he said: ‘Do violence to no man’. And turning the other cheek during a battle is not recommended practice in many military training manuals, and will inevitably result in the individual being shot.

So a disciple is to be a non- participant in politics, and a non-combatant in wars.

The price for that may well be imprisonment or death, but that is a price the disciple is prepared to pay for the sake of Him who died for us.

As Daniel said: 4: 17 […] the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

That being the case, we can easily understand the actions of those in positions of power. They can confidently be expected to act basely, and that should come as no surprise to the disciple.

The Psalmist said the same thing, in so many words:

Ps 146.3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Don't vote for them - after all you'll be voting for the 'basest of men'.

Lay aside your claims to 'rights', and take the position that you have none.

But pay your taxes (Jesus did), and obey the laws of the country as far as is consistent with the laws of God. 'Be subject to the higher powers' Paul says.

Those are our instructions.
So what is the Christian's purpose in life?
 
So what is the Christian's purpose in life?

It to testify humbly of the Gospel of the grace of God to fellow sinners in need of it.

Trying to impose one's politics on people disinclined to receive them won't win them for the Gospel. The trouble is, professing Christians think they are too important, and won't give up trying to annoy, rather than to win, the people they may claim they want to testify to.
 
It to testify humbly of the Gospel of the grace of God to fellow sinners in need of it.
But is that it, is that all there is to it? What are the ways that can, and should, be done?

farouk said:
Trying to impose one's politics on people disinclined to receive them won't win them for the Gospel. The trouble is, professing Christians think they are too important, and won't give up trying to annoy, rather than to win, the people they may claim they want to testify to.
Is Jesus the Lord of all aspects of our lives, or just those that we deem "sacred" or "spiritual"?
 
So what is the Christian's purpose in life?

Micah 6.8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Isa 55.6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Interesting last verse. Jesus took no part in, nor made any pronouncements about the politics of the day.

He sought no votes, did not want to be king, refused when popular opinion wanted Him to be a king, preached no political revolution,
in short, did nothing politically significant.

Instead, His commission is very simple, and very plain:

Mt 28.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That's a pretty big purpose in life.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Isa 55.6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Interesting last verse. Jesus took no part in, nor made any pronouncements about the politics of the day.

He sought no votes, did not want to be king, refused when popular opinion wanted Him to be a king, preached no political revolution,
in short, did nothing politically significant.

Instead, His commission is very simple, and very plain:

Mt 28.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That's a pretty big purpose in life.
Those are some very select verses. That Jesus did not perhaps directly involve himself in politics, which may nor may not be the case, in no way whatsoever means that Christians are not to be involved in politics.

This is the problem with proof-texting, most people can't see the forest for the trees.
 
But is that it, is that all there is to it? What are the ways that can, and should, be done?


Is Jesus the Lord of all aspects of our lives, or just those that we deem "sacred" or "spiritual"?

Free: Okay so I don't think you even agree with my basic premise. Well, okay.

I'm not into the dominion theology stuff. Or the supposed sanctifying effect of politicians on the believer's life.

I guess I'd better bow out of the discussion.
 
Free: Okay so I don't think you even agree with my basic premise. Well, okay.

I'm not into the dominion theology stuff. Or the supposed sanctifying effect of politicians on the believer's life.

I guess I'd better bow out of the discussion.
I'm not into dominion theology either. I just think that the majority of western Christians have it wrong. There is a false separation between what is often called the "secular" and the "sacred" or "spiritual." It is not a distinction found in Scripture. Jesus is Lord of every sphere of life and we are to be salt and light in the world in the capacity to which he calls us, including politics.
 
I'm not into dominion theology either. I just think that the majority of western Christians have it wrong. There is a false separation between what is often called the "secular" and the "sacred" or "spiritual." It is not a distinction found in Scripture. Jesus is Lord of every sphere of life and we are to be salt and light in the world in the capacity to which he calls us, including politics.

Like, impose the Lord's reign of righteousness now, rather than after His appearing in power and glory?

As a dispensationalist I tend to think the church is waiting for the rapture rather than, apart from the Lord's coming, trying to assume a hostile world into itself.

(Oops, I was supposed to be bowing out of the discussion...)

Blessings.
 
Like, impose the Lord's reign of righteousness now, rather than after His appearing in power and glory?

As a dispensationalist I tend to think the church is waiting for the rapture rather than, apart from the Lord's coming, trying to assume a hostile world into itself.

(Oops, I was supposed to be bowing out of the discussion...)

Blessings.
Not impose anything but rather bring about the new life, the new creation which began with the resurrection of Christ, into the world. I think one of the biggest problems with the church in North America is that everyone is too busy waiting for a "rapture" to get them out of this mess of a world, and they have failed to realize that we are called now to bring the kingdom of God into the world for it's healing and redemption.
 
Those are some very select verses. That Jesus did not perhaps directly involve himself in politics, which may nor may not be the case, in no way whatsoever means that Christians are not to be involved in politics.

This is the problem with proof-texting, most people can't see the forest for the trees.



Not sure I'd be quite that judgemental about people who use proof-texting, but I understand your point about not seeing the forest for the trees. I don't like proof-texting either, as it almost inevitably becomes dueling scriptures.

It may not be a popular view here on this forum - where so many take a near pharasaical approach to every nuance of every word - but, I think the message of the Bible is not in the literal meaning of the words, but behind the words. And, of course, we understand that when we hear Jesus talk about how seeds grow depending on where they fall, He isn't really talking about wheat and oats. And, for me, the message behind the totality of the Bible is one of infinite grace and mercy. We're called to follow Christ's life in humility, and service, and sacrifice.

I understand that our Christian responsibilities are the same under whatever form of government we live, they do not change with the politics, and are not intended to change politics. If I'm pressed to use quotes to give clues to, and support of, my beliefs about Chrisitan responsibility, it's one attributed to St. Francis, and it isn't political in the least.

"Preach the Gospel always...use words if necessary."
 
Not impose anything but rather bring about the new life, the new creation which began with the resurrection of Christ, into the world. I think one of the biggest problems with the church in North America is that everyone is too busy waiting for a "rapture" to get them out of this mess of a world, and they have failed to realize that we are called now to bring the kingdom of God into the world for it's healing and redemption.


Free:

...but the Gospel isn't going to take effect through politics in transforming sinners inwardly by faith, and separating them from the world system.
 
Free:

...but the Gospel isn't going to take effect through politics in transforming sinners inwardly by faith, and separating them from the world system.
True, but politics can be a tool used to suppress the gospel and muzzle those trying to spread it.
 
It may not be a popular view here on this forum - where so many take a near pharasaical approach to every nuance of every word - but, I think the message of the Bible is not in the literal meaning of the words, but behind the words. And, of course, we understand that when we hear Jesus talk about how seeds grow depending on where they fall, He isn't really talking about wheat and oats. And, for me, the message behind the totality of the Bible is one of infinite grace and mercy. We're called to follow Christ's life in humility, and service, and sacrifice.
+1

The literal interpretation of every word in the Bible has done more to discredit Christianity and Christ Himself than all the persecution in the world.

(Oh: One more thing, You have the best avatar here.)
 
True, but politics can be a tool used to suppress the gospel and muzzle those trying to spread it.

This is true, too, and this is why we need to be in prayer for rulers and be in dependence on the Lord, rather than trusting politicians and their statements, as if they are to be taken at face value.

Blessings.
 
This is true, too, and this is why we need to be in prayer for rulers and be in dependence on the Lord, rather than trusting politicians and their statements, as if they are to be taken at face value.

Blessings.
Trusting politicians and their words IS a waste of time, but if all you are going to do is pray, you will be sorely disappointed. "He isn't here, but we are".
 
Trusting politicians and their words IS a waste of time, but if all you are going to do is pray, you will be sorely disappointed. "He isn't here, but we are".

P:

I really wouldn't discount the power of prayer in favor of the power of politicians. They can only go so far and no further, as the Lord allows them, while He continues to fulfill His purposes.
 
It is our responsibility, as Christians, to pray for our governments and those in charge. No doubt about that.

But to say that, as Christians, we are to remain separate from politics?

Well, we in the US have seen the results of Christians staying separate from politics for decades.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expressionhttp://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#exp. (Ratified 12/15/1791.) : Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redresshttp://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#REDRESS of grievances.


Prayer is gone from schools, including some private schools associated with churches ..... although, of course, individuals can silently pray to themselves, as long as their seatmate or neighbor isn't disturbed by the silent prayer. (Some schools no longer start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance.)



Many groups want the 10 Commandment plaques and displays removed from federal and state buildings. Christian Christmas displays have law suits filed in protest.


The list continues.


Christians are citizens. As citizens, we are responsible for voting in the election process. To abdicate our responsibilities is not turning the other cheek, it's burying our heads in the proverbial sand. It also takes away any voice and right to try to right the wrongs in politics.


My 2-cents
 
AirDancer:

I'm not in the US, but I think that historically those in authority had more respect for the existing place of the fear of God generally in society. I don't think that the fear of God was suddenly established when Christians decided to go into electoral politics.

If believers wish to run for office, then this is their responsibility. They can, if they want to. My point is more, it's good to remember the limits of what the process can actually achieve spiritually.

Blessings.
 
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