The Disciple and Politics

[reba]

Any use of government is is not an avoidance of government.

Use of the roads, the police, social security, water or power from the dams, use of the laws to protect persons and property...

I believe the subject under consideration is participation in government, not lving within the iunfluence of government.

This idea rings of hypocrisy to me.

 

[Asyncritus]

So then, does God want or expect us to hide our heads in the sand and not be a participating member of the society He has placed us? Is it wrong or undesirable for us to do our best to influence our governing bodies in the hope that they will turn toward Godly principles?

Voting for them and influencing them are 2 different things.

Scriptural precedent isn't good on that point.

Disciples in positions of high office, like Chuza, Herod's steward, clearly had no influence on his decision to kill John the Baptist. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus could not influence the High Priest's insistence on crucifying Jesus. Daniel could not prevent Nebuchadnezzar from throwing his 3 friends into the furnace.

But none of these politicians, or the others I can think of, was voted in.

There is something unseemly about followers of King Jesus sending up loud hurrahs when one of 'the basest of men' is elected.

Don't you think so?

 

[Butch5]

This idea rings of hypocrisy to me.

Hypocrisy, how so? There is a big difference between participating in government and obeying the laws of the land. The Scriptures teach we are to be in the world but not of it. Just because one obeys the laws doesn't mean they have to make them.

 

[reba]

Hypocrisy, how so? There is a big difference between participating in government and obeying the laws of the land. The Scriptures teach we are to be in the world but not of it. Just because one obeys the laws doesn't mean they have to make them.

Where is the law that says you must accept social security? Or drive of government roads. Where are the laws that tell you you must use city water... Etc..
There is a big difference between using benefits of government and simply obeying laws.

 

[Butch5]

So then, does God want or expect us to hide our heads in the sand and not be a participating member of the society He has placed us? Is it wrong or undesirable for us to do our best to influence our governing bodies in the hope that they will turn toward Godly principles?

I guess we have to define what you mean by participating. The first Christians would have nothing to do with the government because they knew they were pilgrims on this earth. They held a doctrine that isn't given much attention today that is the doctrine of the two kingdoms. They knew there was the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. What wasn't the kingdom of God was the kingdom of darkness. They would have no part in ruling the kingdom of darkness. I don't see how anything has changed. We still have those two kingdoms. However, as Christians Paul said that God has translated us out of the power of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Having been translated why would we again partake of the kingdom of darkness?

 

[reba]

I am so thankful to God for placing me where He wants me to be in His earth!

Psa 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding

 

[Elijah674]

So then, does God want or expect us to hide our heads in the sand and not be a participating member of the society He has placed us? Is it wrong or undesirable for us to do our best to influence our governing bodies in the hope that they will turn toward Godly principles?

Hi, I do not completely agree with post 38. Surely Daniel proves that we can have one of two partial commitments for law, (voting correctly) for ALL LAW, as long as it does not infringe on our first duty to God in Worship. Both Daniel & his colleagues are examples of who comes first regardless even in the face of death.

And how 'i' personally could vote for any party who 'openly' violates any of the commandments of God? Would have me be a pataker of that sin. (abortion is just one such laws) And a no vote (meaning don't vote) on my part is a yes vote for the evil as I see it.

--Elijah

 

[Butch5]

Where is the law that says you must accept social security? Or drive of government roads. Where are the laws that tell you you must use city water... Etc..
There is a big difference between using benefits of government and simply obeying laws.

Using a road doesn't break the commands of Christ. Neither does using city water or paying taxes. However, being yoked with unbelievers does. If you have an entirely Christian government then I guess there would be no problem. However, we know that there is no entirely Christian government. You see, when Christians are involved with government they inevitably find themselves in a position of having to choose to follow Christ or government.

 

[WIP]

The first Christians would have nothing to do with the government because they knew they were pilgrims on this earth.

Having nothing to do with government was more than a choice for they had no choice. One was born into royalty (government) and all others were subject to that monarchy whether they liked it or not.

As a member of a representative democracy I do have the ability to influence my government and perhaps lead it toward a Godly path. Should I not accept that responsibility where I can? If not, why would God put me here?

 

[Butch5]

Having nothing to do with government was more than a choice for they had no choice. One was born into royalty (government) and all others were subject to that monarchy whether they liked it or not.

As a member of a representative democracy I do have the ability to influence my government and perhaps lead it toward a Godly path. Should I not accept that responsibility where I can? If not, why would God put me here?

They had the opportunity, they were criticized by the Romans for not doing so. Can you partake of government without becoming unequally yoked? Suppose you vote fro a candidated and he wins, however, while in office he goes against the commands of Christ. Don't you have some responsibilty in that?

 

[WIP]

They had the opportunity, they were criticized by the Romans for not doing so. Can you partake of government without becoming unequally yoked? Suppose you vote fro a candidated and he wins, however, while in office he goes against the commands of Christ. Don't you have some responsibilty in that?

Yes, I would to the extent that I would try to have him removed from office either now or at the next election.

 

[Elijah674]

They had the opportunity, they were criticized by the Romans for not doing so. Can you partake of government without becoming unequally yoked? Suppose you vote fro a candidated and he wins, however, while in office he goes against the commands of Christ. Don't you have some responsibilty in that?

You can say the same thing about church's, but not the 'after' effect. Rev. 18:4
And never is one 'yoked' to government.

 

[Asyncritus]

Here's a hypothetical.

You live in Germany, before Hitler came to power, and you are presented with the choice: Vote Hitler, or vote for his opponent, or as I'm saying, don't vote at all.

What would you do? As I understand it, Hitler didn't bare his fangs till he was in power, and there was no way you could tell what was going to happen.

So on principle, what would you have done? What principle would you apply here?

 

[Asyncritus]

Here's another.

At the upcoming US elections, Party A says they will withdraw all support for Israel and actively support their enemies.

Party B says exactly the same thing (assuming that's possible!)

Who would you vote for, given that God said to Abraham:

"He that blesseth thee I will bless; him that curseth thee, I will curse".

 

[Free]

Here's a hypothetical.

You live in Germany, before Hitler came to power, and you are presented with the choice: Vote Hitler, or vote for his opponent, or as I'm saying, don't vote at all.

What would you do? As I understand it, Hitler didn't bare his fangs till he was in power, and there was no way you could tell what was going to happen.

So on principle, what would you have done? What principle would you apply here?

So you're presenting a choice based on hindsight? At the time of that election, it wouldn't have mattered.

Who would you vote for, given that God said to Abraham:

"He that blesseth thee I will bless; him that curseth thee, I will curse".

How is "voting" the same as "blessing"?

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I would to the extent that I would try to have him removed from office either now or at the next election.

OK, but what I'm getting is that he broke Christ's commands, lets say he bombs some country. Don't those who voted for him have some responsibility in that?

 

[Butch5]

You can say the same thing about church's, but not the 'after' effect. Rev. 18:4
And never is one 'yoked' to government.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[for_his_glory]

As a Spiritually born again child of God our government is not of this fleshly world, but that of the governing of the word of God who has already set His laws in motion. When a wicked fleshly government comes against that which has already been established by God for His people a corrupt government will always try to destroy that which comes from God.

Isaiah 9:6 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 22:21 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

2 Peter 2:10 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Isaiah 9:7 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

[Free]

As a Spiritually born again child of God our government is not of this fleshly world, but that of the governing of the word of God who has already set His laws in motion. When a wicked fleshly government comes against that which has already been established by God for His people a corrupt government will always try to destroy that which comes from God.

And yet:

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
Rom 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Rom 13:5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (ESV)

 

[WIP]

OK, but what I'm getting is that he broke Christ's commands, lets say he bombs some country. Don't those who voted for him have some responsibility in that?

I suppose if he campaigned on the premise that is what he would do. We elect persons into public office all the time based on the promises they make and often learn later that they go back on said promises once in office. Are we responsible for the actions of others even when they lie to us or change their position later on? I take responsibility for that situation at the next election casting my vote to oust him/her from office.