The Disciple and Politics

[Butch5]

The multitude of manuscripts only date to about the 400's and the NT manucripts far out weigh the secular writings.[/QUOTE]

This is what I thought I said, yes.

So how does that tell us that the manuscripts match the autographs.

 

[farouk]

So how does that tell us that the manuscripts match the autographs.

I think you are trying to 'prove' that we are dependent on the church authorities for what is authentic and true, supposedly.

To have the text of Scripture dispersed among such a wide amount of manuscripts and sources is a great safeguard.

Far, far safer than the supposed argument: unless we have the autographs in front of us, we are dependent on the church to tell us what's real.

 

[Butch5]

I do not follow your reasoning. It almost appears that you are assuming that to get involved in politics to commit to engaging in violence. This is clearly not correct - one can serve all sorts of functions in government without ever coming close to fighting for that government.

In addition, the fact that all national boundaries will arguably done away with when Christ returns is hardly an argument against getting involved in government in the present with the goal of molding the world according to kingdom of God values.

Drew,

One may not actively participate in the military. However, one is furthering the ambitions of a government that is in the kingdom of darkness. One has to be yoked (unequally) with unbelievers. Do you really believe that unbelievers in the government are seeking to establish Christian values?

 

[Butch5]

I think you are trying to 'prove' that we are dependent on the church authorities for what is authentic and true, supposedly.

To have the text of Scripture dispersed among such a wide amount of manuscripts and sources is a great safeguard.

Far, far safer than the supposed argument: unless we have the autographs in front of us, we are dependent on the church to tell us what's real.

It's only logical that we can only prove the validity of manuscripts that we have. If those manuscripts only date to the 400's then that as far as we can go. What have you got to base your argument on?

 

[Butch5]

I think we're talking cross purposes here. I still have no idea what any of what you've put has to do with getting into politics.

All of those wars started with Christians in politics.

 

[Tri Unity]

Do you really believe that unbelievers in the government are seeking to establish Christian values?

I am very much blessed by your wise and patient considerations. I hope that others here might see through the dark vortex and be blessed the same way. Not that they are not already blessed; but that the richness and depths of God come from aligning our spirit to His eternal mandate and glory. Recognising the purpose of the Kingdom of God and dissociating ourselves from earthly political involvement is one of the first steps we take on that journey. Then you truly become rich. Then we really start to grow. Then we really become voters in the true Kingdom!

 

[Butch5]

I am very much blessed by your wise and patient considerations. I hope that others here might see through the dark vortex and be blessed the same way. Not that they are not already blessed; but that the richness and depths of God come from aligning our spirit to His eternal mandate and glory. Recognising the purpose of the Kingdom of God and dissociating ourselves from earthly political involvement is one of the first steps we take on that journey. Then you truly become rich. Then we really start to grow. Then we really become voters in the true Kingdom!

Thanks!

 

[Free]

Drew,

One may not actively participate in the military. However, one is furthering the ambitions of a government that is in the kingdom of darkness. One has to be yoked (unequally) with unbelievers. Do you really believe that unbelievers in the government are seeking to establish Christian values?

What do you think of Christians joining non-Christian charities and other organizations, like PETA or Greenpeace, for example? That would unequally yolked according to you would it not?

Since God establishes the governments, as Rom 13 clearly shows, in what way are they "in the kingdom of darkness"?

 

[Butch5]

What do you think of Christians joining non-Christian charities and other organizations, like PETA or Greenpeace, for example? That would unequally yolked according to you would it not?

I hadn't really thought about that but I suppose so.

Since God establishes the governments, as Rom 13 clearly shows, in what way are they "in the kingdom of darkness"?

They're not Christian. There are two kingdoms, the kingdom of God and kingdoms of this world (darkness).

 

[Grazer]

If God establishes the governments but they are no longer Christian, then the only solution is for Christians to get involved in government and show them the truth, to try and change. Its not easy, it'll probably be futile but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

It's interesting to me that I hear people comment/complain that the government are increasingly turning away from Christian values and then I read comments suggesting Christians should just let the government get on with it. Yes lets just sit back and let the world destroy itself and be content that we will be with Christ. Somehow I doubt that's what Jesus would advocate.

 

[Tri Unity]

Yes lets just sit back and let the world destroy itself and be content that we will be with Christ. Somehow I doubt that's what Jesus would advocate.

That is the point Grazer; we are trying to establish exactly what Jesus taught that we should do. Many of you are here advocating that Jesus and the Apostles were actually political zealots establishing Plato's Democracy so the entire world could have Human Rights, Playstation and a Mecedes Benz. To be a christian is to be a good soldier boy and shoot anyone who resists the American Way! This view is so babyish from a Christian perpective; it is like you have never read the bible at all, yet want to give everyone the answers based on human reasoning. Jesus saved me from that; and now you want to sell me the same thing I was saved from. Really?

 

[Drew]

How many people resent the government because of income taxes? Is this the way to portray the kingdom of God?

I do not follow the reasoning here. Our goal is not to "liked", our goal is to be faithful advocates for implementing the kingdom of God. As Christians, we are, I believe, called to try to change our society in all sorts of ways that people probably won't like.

In England, Wilberforce advocated for a change in law re slavery. This advocacy was grounded in his belief that the gospel way was the right way for society. A lot of people probably resented him for that.

I politely suggest that this fundamental opposition to taxation is a distinctly American phenomenon. In Canada, people do not object to being taxed, they object to having their tax dollars spent carelessly.

Government is necessary, government is good - it is a way to implement our collective goals. Obviously, we need to do our best to ensure that government is implemented properly. But I cannot imagine a case can be made that a modern society can get by without government.

 

[Drew]

Having technical problems with quoting other posts. Here is part of a post:

This is exactly the reason why we should not bloody our hands and defile our consciences with involvement with politics.

My response:

This is the language of concession - language that says "we'll concede the domain of how the world is run to secular forces"

Jesus is lord of all. How the world's institution functions is not excluded from the domain of His authority.

Can you explain to us why you believe that "kingdom of God" values are not the proper way to structure and order a society?

 

[Drew]

That is the point Grazer; we are trying to establish exactly what Jesus taught that we should do. Many of you are here advocating that Jesus and the Apostles were actually political zealots establishing Plato's Democracy so the entire world could have Human Rights, Playstation and a Mecedes Benz. To be a christian is to be a good soldier boy and shoot anyone who resists the American Way! This view is so babyish from a Christian perpective; it is like you have never read the bible at all, yet want to give everyone the answers based on human reasoning. Jesus saved me from that; and now you want to sell me the same thing I was saved from. Really?

Strawman. Please do not insult the reader's intelligence. No one is saying anything like this.

No one is saying that a Christian should engage in violence;

No one is saying that a Christian should promote materialism;

As for human rights, yes I'll plead guilty to that one. Perhaps you can explain to us all how it is that the Christian should not be involved in project of ensuring all human beings are treated with dignity and respect (that is, to be given human rights).

To be involved in the institutions which shape our world, and to try to mold them into a kingdom of God model is decidedly part of the Christian's vocation.

 

[Drew]

When Christians disassociate themselves from involvement in the institutions that shape our world, they are, whether they realize it or not, effectively conceding a major battleground to secular values. Are kingdom of God values not good enough to be actually used in the real world? That is effectively what you are saying when you say the Christian should retreat from participation in the very institutions that determine how our world is run. How is Satan not giggling with delight as we hand him the reigns and say "you run the show, we're not interested".

Let's take a different example to illustrate. Suppose Fred believes that we are polluting the planet and that future generations are at risk as a result. Now: Would it make sense for Fred to decide that he is going to simply be environmentally responsible as an individual, and not try to change the very institutions that have the power to enact environmentally responsible legislation?

Of course not.

 

[Drew]

All of those wars started with Christians in politics.

I am quite sure you will not be able to support this implication that obedient Christians, involved in politics, are somehow responsible for wars.

I trust I need remind readers that correlation does not imply causation. The fact that there have been Christians "in office" when wars have been initiated in no way suggests that these Christians were responsible.

Even if someone calling themselves a Christian has advocated for war, all that shows is this person does not understand the gospel calling to non-violent resolution of conflicts.

 

[Butch5]

I am quite sure you will not be able to support this implication that obedient Christians, involved in politics, are somehow responsible for wars.

I trust I need remind readers that correlation does not imply causation. The fact that there have been Christians "in office" when wars have been initiated in no way suggests that these Christians were responsible.

Even if someone calling themselves a Christian has advocated for war, all that shows is this person does not understand the gospel calling to non-violent resolution of conflicts.

Were Christians not in governement when the Revolutionary and Civil wars broke out? I didn't say Christians started them (some did), however, it doesn't look like that they stopped them either. Additionally, they also fought in them. Just look at history.

 

[Butch5]

When Christians disassociate themselves from involvement in the institutions that shape our world, they are, whether they realize it or not, effectively conceding a major battleground to secular values. Are kingdom of God values not good enough to be actually used in the real world? That is effectively what you are saying when you say the Christian should retreat from participation in the very institutions that determine how our world is run. How is Satan not giggling with delight as we hand him the reigns and say "you run the show, we're not interested".

Let's take a different example to illustrate. Suppose Fred believes that we are polluting the planet and that future generations are at risk as a result. Now: Would it make sense for Fred to decide that he is going to simply be environmentally responsible as an individual, and not try to change the very institutions that have the power to enact environmentally responsible legislation?

Of course not.

That's bit different than making laws that force unbelievers to follow Christian values. Firstly, can we establish the Biblical command for us to determine the course that nations take? Jesus specifically distanced Himself from worldly kingdoms. What happened when the Jews were going to take Him and make Him king? He disappeared. He could have become king and conquered the Romans. He could have abolished all kinds of evils that were going, yet He didn't. Someone will undoubted say, He had to go the cross. OK, He could have told the Jews to make Peter a king and Jesus still could have conquered the Romans and ended many evils of the day, yet again, He didn't. He also didn't tell His apostles to try to enter into politics to change the Laws. Jesus could easily have told His disciples to focus their attention on converting Roman elite in an attempt to change things at the top, again, He didn't. What Biblical basis do we have for doing such?

 

[Drew]

Were Christians not in governement when the Revolutionary and Civil wars broke out? I didn't say Christians started them (some did), however, it doesn't look like that they stopped them either. Additionally, they also fought in them. Just look at history.

You are not really making a case for withdrawal from government. Even if some people who call themselves "Christians" behaved irresponsibly, this is hardly an argument for right-thinking Christians to sit on their hands on the sidelines.

Instead, those right-thinking Christians should have been involved in the political process, advocating for the non-violent solution.

Can you please explain why it is you believe that "kingdom of God" values are not suitable for ordering the world?

In other ways, your argument seems strange to me. Suppose some doctors in the past engaged in evil experiment on people. Does that mean a Christian today should not consider becoming a doctor?

We have the very kingdom of God values in our hands. And yet many (such as yourelf) seem to think they are not suitable for use in the real world inasmuch as the institutions of government play an important role in how the world runs. Can you explain?

 

[Butch5]

I do not follow the reasoning here. Our goal is not to "liked", our goal is to be faithful advocates for implementing the kingdom of God. As Christians, we are, I believe, called to try to change our society in all sorts of ways that people probably won't like.

In England, Wilberforce advocated for a change in law re slavery. This advocacy was grounded in his belief that the gospel way was the right way for society. A lot of people probably resented him for that.

It's not about being liked. It's about animosity and hatred towards Christ that is created by the Christian's influencing/implementing laws that unbelievers don't want. Paul said to the Romans, speaking of the Jews,

KJV Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. (Rom 2:24 KJV)

Today the same can be said of Christians. Just look at the disdain for the religious right in Washington. How are we supposed to be winning people to Christ when at the same time creating such animosity and hatred?

I politely suggest that this fundamental opposition to taxation is a distinctly American phenomenon. In Canada, people do not object to being taxed, they object to having their tax dollars spent carelessly.

That may be the case, however, the resentment is still there. When Christians are part of that government they become objects of resentment at which point their effectiveness for Christ is greatly hindered.

Government is necessary, government is good - it is a way to implement our collective goals. Obviously, we need to do our best to ensure that government is implemented properly. But I cannot imagine a case can be made that a modern society can get by without government.

I agree that government is good and necessary and am not advocating a society without government. I'm simply saying that it's not the Christian's place.