The Elect Hear The Voice Of The Shepherd.

[mutzrein]

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16

Do you believe this pertains to all His Sheep or His Apostles?

JLB

Obviously spoken directly to the disciples but applies to all whom the Father has enabled to come to Christ.

 

[mutzrein]

John10:16

Thanks, but of course this is not referring to 'classes' of sheep, but sheep from another fold. As far as I can see, scripture does not refer to sheep outside of belonging to Christ. Some are scattered or going astray of course, some come from another fold or pen but ALL are Christ's.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you Chopper. I believe the problem has been eliminated now and this thread should be able to go on in the calm and peaceful way that it started.

My heartfelt thanks Obadiah. You kept this from blowing up. I have come to know in a personal way, how the Prophets felt when their message was refused and ridiculed. I have to express what's in my heart, and it hurts when the folk of whom I love and appreciate, express themselves in a rude manner. You and the other moderators have a very tough position to keep us wild ponies corralled.

 

[Chopper]

Well done Chopper

Your good word is really appreciated Reba.

 

[JLB]

Obviously spoken directly to the disciples but applies to all whom the Father has enabled to come to Christ.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16

These were personally chosen by Jesus Christ to be the first Apostles.

He lived with these and personally taught them while He was on earth in His flesh and blood body.

Obviously this was a unique condition.

There are things spoken in the John 15 that pertain to all, but this personal "choosing" was a reference to His Apostles being chosen for that specific foundational work.


In other words - Not all of His Sheep are said to be the foundation of the walls of the New Jerusalem with all our names written on them.

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:14

and again

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


The Point: We should not take a scripture that was being applied to His disciples as being chosen for the Apostleship, and apply it to all His sheep in the context of being "chosen for salvation", when the context refers to being chosen for the work of Apostleship.


Some have tried to make this scripture seem as if God chooses some for salvation, while choosing some for everlasting punishment in hell.


This flies in the face of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world...



JLB

 

[JLB]

My heartfelt thanks Obadiah. You kept this from blowing up. I have come to know in a personal way, how the Prophets felt when their message was refused and ridiculed. I have to express what's in my heart, and it hurts when the folk of whom I love and appreciate, express themselves in a rude manner. You and the other moderators have a very tough position to keep us wild ponies corralled.

Please share with us about your study and understanding of the "general call", which not being a student, I find interesting.

Please forgive me if I've been rude to you. I repent.


Thanks Chopper.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Well folks, I stand ready to defend what I believe is the truth to this very controversial teaching of John Calvin. As I have already noted, I don't adhere to all that Calvin documents. There are other parts of Calvin's theology that I don't follow. I like to think that these early reformers were faced with a completely different set of circumstances that we are. Fighting against the false doctrines of the Church at Rome was a fierce fight indeed and could account for some teachings that we don't agree with.

I hope some of you will see and appreciate a fresh look at these thoughts of mine and study afresh for yourself. Thanks for your time.

Good point about the context of the times. I'm sure some of Calvin's ideas that I don't agree with might seem acceptable or even advantageous when trying to justify the separation of Protestantism from Roman Catholicism.

 

[Chopper]

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16

These were personally chosen by Jesus Christ to be the first Apostles.

He lived with these and personally taught them while He was on earth in His flesh and blood body.

Obviously this was a unique condition.

There are things spoken in the John 15 that pertain to all, but this personal "choosing" was a reference to His Apostles being chosen for that specific foundational work.


In other words - Not all of His Sheep are said to be the foundation of the walls of the New Jerusalem with all our names written on them.

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:14

and again

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


The Point: We should not take a scripture that was being applied to His disciples as being chosen for the Apostleship, and apply it to all His sheep in the context of being "chosen for salvation", when the context refers to being chosen for the work of Apostleship.


Some have tried to make this scripture seem as if God chooses some for salvation, while choosing some for everlasting punishment in hell.


This flies in the face of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world...



JLB

Very good JLB, I agree. The only point that I'd like to make is that Jesus, when referring to the Disciples is that He recognizes that the Father sent them to Him. In John 17:6, Jesus says, "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." What I'd like you to observe is the words Thou gavest Me. and Thine they were.

Those words confirm election in my mind. First Jesus recognizes that the Disciples belonged to the Father (before the foundations of the world) and the words "they were" verifies that.

I like to think that the Disciples, and how Jesus obtained them is simply the standard of how Jesus obtained all others of the Elect. In other words, the Elect, starting with the Disciples, and then others came to Jesus from the Father out of the reserve of people who make up the elect..

 

[eddif]

Ezekiel 11:16
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

When we consider the Gentiles entering I think we often do not mention the work done by the best of the Jews scattered among the nations, and thus preparing for the ministry of Paul.

Ezekiel 9:3
And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Those left to go into captivity (chosen for their mourning) those who were sorry for the sins of Israel.
On the day of Pentecost the righteous men from every nation were offspring of the exiled people .

Jeremiah 29:4
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
5 Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;
6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
7 And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.

So when Paul comes to Thessalonica and Berea some Jewish persons had been to Jerusalem for The day of Pentecost. This allowed a place to minister and not have to start from absolutely zero. Berea had people who searched the scriptures.

To keep this from being too long, I will stop here . There are many more scriptures to support this concept of flocks.

eddif

 

[JLB]

Those words confirm election in my mind. First Jesus recognizes that the Disciples belonged to the Father (before the foundations of the world) and the words "they were" verifies that.

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:

...out of the world, seems to indicate they belonged to Satan's kingdom first, then chose to answer the call.

Written in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world, shows us the foreknowledge of those who would choose to be in Christ, so that God would choose those "in Him" before the foundation of the world.


This seems to contradict some of what Calvinism teaches, however I am unlearned in the teachings of Calvinism, so I will leave that up to you to decide.


JLB

 

[eddif]

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This is one of those verses that have two concepts in one sentence (in English if translated correctly).

Predestination sure seems to be about behavior.
Foreknowledge seems to be more election oriented.

I have to defer to others at times. My welding glasses are #12s (glass darkly).

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

Hmmm - Ok - I still don't see more than one 'class' of sheep. Two classes of animals perhaps ... sheep and goats. But as far as sheep are concerned they all are Christ's. Jesus came to his own people - the Jews. The other sheep who were to be brought into the fold are Gentiles. And so when it says that God so loved the world, it refers not only to the Jews, but to Gentile alike - ie the world.

I agree. Jesus speaking to the Jews said that He had another fold that He must bring too and that there would then be one fold.

 

[Deborah13]

Good point about the context of the times. I'm sure some of Calvin's ideas that I don't agree with might seem acceptable or even advantageous when trying to justify the separation of Protestantism from Roman Catholicism.

I agree with this.

When we consider the Gentiles entering I think we often do not mention the work done by the best of the Jews scattered among the nations, and thus preparing for the ministry of Paul.

Such as Acts 11:19-22

 

[eddif]

Such as Acts 11:19-22

My comment about preperation for Paul is more in line with post 29 above. The dispersed Jews were the good guys. The dispersed Jewish persons were more drawn to God than the ones destroyed in Jerusalem for sin.

The dispersed persons were more prone to look for a city whose builder and maker was God. Spiritual people who grieved / cried over the sins of Israel. Were they perfect? No. Were they the ancestors of those who heard them speaking of the wonderful works of God on the day of Pentecost? Evidently.

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

My comment about preperation for Paul is more in line with post 29 above. The dispersed Jews were the good guys. The dispersed Jewish persons were more drawn to God than the ones destroyed in Jerusalem for sin.

The dispersed persons were more prone to look for a city whose builder and maker was God. Spiritual people who grieved / cried over the sins of Israel. Were they perfect? No. Were they the ancestors of those who heard them speaking of the wonderful works of God on the day of Pentecost? Evidently.

eddif

You lost me, eddif. The Jews in Act 4 were men who were preaching the Gospel, men filled with the Holy Ghost. They had dispersed after the persecution of Stephen.Two of them started preaching to the Gentiles. James sent Barnabas (a Jew) from Jerusalem to Antioch. He prepared the way, went and got Saul/Paul and they preached together there.
At least that is the way I understand it.
How is this different than what you are saying. Sorry sometimes I'm rather thick.

 

[eddif]

You lost me, eddif. The Jews in Act 4 were men who were preaching the Gospel, men filled with the Holy Ghost. They had dispersed after the persecution of Stephen.Two of them started preaching to the Gentiles. James sent Barnabas (a Jew) from Jerusalem to Antioch. He prepared the way, went and got Saul/Paul and they preached together there.
At least that is the way I understand it.
How is this different than what you are saying. Sorry sometimes I'm rather thick.

Hey I lose myself every once in awhile.
The 300 years(?) of dispersion is the time frame I am speaking of. From end of OT / OC till John.
There all sorts of captivity, but the hundreds of years is the time frame when sanctuaries are built in Asia etc. my real mistake was probably a scripture quote that mislead the time. Paul went to Berea (where the Jews studied the scriptures (and Gentiles ?) in a synagogue probably built in the long dispersion). The descendants heard at Pentecost not spoke, but the righteous that heard in their own language were descendants of people dispersed about Ezekiel's time. We usually do not seem to study Ezekiel a whole lot, but I have heard some discussion .

If I still ain't said nothing, rattle my chain again. You know I switch from symbolism to reality without a map.

eddif

 

[eddif]

The original post was about John 10
I just chose a significant couple of events to show elect listening.
Event 1:
Pentecost
Acts 2:5 KJV
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These are the devout mem of the dispersion after Malachi. Marked back in Ezekiel 9:4

These are to be seen as different from the others of Acts 2:13 KJV
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Devout from dispersion vs others, but all gathered for feast. They listened / heard.

Event 2:
Berea
Acts 17:11 KJV
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Notice while not marked on their forehead, they were identified for their good behavior and acceptance of the gospel. I would see this as elect, but the word (elect) does not appear. Some will accept Paul's believed / honorable as a sign of election; others will not. These Jews were offspring of the dispersion and evidently accepting some of that country in their meetings. They listened / heard.
.............

Many are called, but few are chosen (?).

I do look at the 400 years without consulting with secular historians as my primary source of what happened during those 400 years. I look at OT / OC prophecy and leap to NT / NC writings.

Those with markings and white garments are identified (?) - elect (?). Notice in both events there were Jews and Gentiles (though some will see them as just proselytes). I tend to look at the inner man
Romans 2:14 KJV
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Ephesians 2:15 KJV
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandmentscontained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, somaking peace;

Romans 8:29 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

Hey I lose myself every once in awhile.
The 300 years(?) of dispersion is the time frame I am speaking of. From end of OT / OC till John.
There all sorts of captivity, but the hundreds of years is the time frame when sanctuaries are built in Asia etc. my real mistake was probably a scripture quote that mislead the time. Paul went to Berea (where the Jews studied the scriptures (and Gentiles ?) in a synagogue probably built in the long dispersion). The descendants heard at Pentecost not spoke, but the righteous that heard in their own language were descendants of people dispersed about Ezekiel's time. We usually do not seem to study Ezekiel a whole lot, but I have heard some discussion .

If I still ain't said nothing, rattle my chain again. You know I switch from symbolism to reality without a map.

eddif

Gotcha', thanks.

And post #37, :nod

 

[OzSpen]

Ok, I'm back for round two....Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me. What a wonderful statement of Truth that Jesus, our Shepherd makes to His Elect sheep. We sometimes, in church, "God is good, God is good all the time." Wow! He sure is! Just think of it, before God (Elohiym) created the earth that we live on, Jesus knew you and me. Just like Jeremiah, he knew you by name, He chose who you would be and chose when, where, and how you would serve Him as His bond servant.

Do you really know how special you are? You should walk today with your head held high, not out of pride, but in the knowledge that you are a child of the King. You are on a special mission to discern who has not trusted in our Savior Jesus Christ, and give them the life changing good news of Salvation.

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Here is the doctrine of the General Call Of the Gospel. There is then, IMO, two classes of sheep. Since we don't know who is who, we can't lift ourselves up over the other. We all must adhere to the command that we must be watchful for Christ Jesus' return, we all must overcome sin, and we all must be faithful to our Redeemer Jesus until the end.

T total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself.)
U unconditional election (God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them.)
L limited atonement (Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only.) This is the one that I reject except that I add those who are truly saved thru the GCOG or General Call Of the Gospel. You see, a great number of folk who come to Jesus thru the General Call, such as a Billy Graham Crusade, will not endure until the end. Therefore the atonement has no effect on that crowd.
I irresistible grace (the sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the Elect.) Ok, now we go to the two classes of sheep. The sheep who are the Elect and the sheep of the General Call. The Elect of God cannot refuse the call to Salvation and will respond and be saved at some point in their life. They are not saved until they are born and live for an undetermined amount of time. Perhaps the date of their Salvation has been pre-set by God, I'm not sure. The Holy Spirit pleads with the sheep in the class of the General Call, and the difference between them and the Elect is that they can and do refuse to be saved. Praise God for those who do make the best choice.
P perseverance of the saints. (those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith.) This applies to the Elect sheep and the General Call sheep who are biblically saved that Jesus has committed Himself too as in John 2:24.

Well folks, I stand ready to defend what I believe is the truth to this very controversial teaching of John Calvin. As I have already noted, I don't adhere to all that Calvin documents. There are other parts of Calvin's theology that I don't follow. I like to think that these early reformers were faced with a completely different set of circumstances that we are. Fighting against the false doctrines of the Church at Rome was a fierce fight indeed and could account for some teachings that we don't agree with.

I hope some of you will see and appreciate a fresh look at these thoughts of mine and study afresh for yourself. Thanks for your time.

Chopper,

You seem to be missing a dimension here:

Article 3 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance states:

Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.​

What did Jacobus Arminius believe about Total Depravity? In one of his disputations, he wrote:

V. In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with “righteousness and true holiness,” and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen. i. 26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (ii, 17,) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Ephes. iv. 24, Col. iii. 10.)

VI. But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life,) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is Under The Dominion of Sin. For “to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,” (Rom. vi. 16,) and “of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,” and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet. ii. 19.)

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526).​

Therefore, Jacobus (James) Arminius and Reformed/Classical Arminians most certainly believed in Total Depravity.

Arminius also believed in the Perseverance of the Saints (The writings of James Arminius, vol 1).

So the T and P of TULIP are not exclusive to Calvinists.

Works consulted
Arminius, J. 1977 The writings of James Arminius, vol. 1, Public disputations of Arminius, Disputation 11 (On the free will of man and its powers), 523-531. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House. Available at: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 – Christian Classics Ethereal Library (Accessed 21 April 2014).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Show me your hands.
Do they have scars from giving?
Show me your feet.
Are they wounded in service?
Show me your heart.
Have you left a place for divine love?

Bishop Fulton John Sheen