Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Eternal Purpose of creation !

savedbygrace57 said:
You miss the point of Isa 45: 7

God said He created darkness and evil..It takes Faith from God to believe what God says..The word evil is not limited to its context, the word has a diverse meaning, and God is the Creator of evil and its diverse purposes..Now here is the meaning of evil in Isa 45 7

its the word ra` and means:


bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)

f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions

So God is the active cause of all that the word evil means..

All evil serves God's eternal redemptive purpose in Christ Jesus..God created moral evil to be instrumental in the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, for it was by wicked hands He ordained or predetermined for it to occur or be brought about..

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This is the same slain we have in rev 13:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All evil and wickedness was created by God and for God and serve His eternal cause or it would not have been called into being..
God created man with a free will....man sins.
The fruit of sin is evil. That's the only way God created "evil".
He created the earth the same way...darkness is a natural consequence of the light.
Evil is a natural consequence of sin. God doesn't sin, but he allows man to.
Amos 3:6 said:
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
 
StoveBolts said:
MM said:
My approach has always been, well maybe not always, but most recently always, that scripture can not contradict itself in any way, shape, form, or manner. When that happens, we need to search more diligently as to why something looks right here, but does not look right with all of scripture.

I too take that approach. Along with that approach, I do believe that it's beneficial to find out what's driving the text. In other words, why was the text written and to whom was the text written. What event compelled the writer to write what was being written and what was the text to convey to it's original audience. You see, if we can't understand the scriptures from the perspective of it's original audience, we're not going to do a very good job understanding it thousands of years later where our culture doesn't even come close to resembling theirs.

I am not trying to wiggle out of what Scripture says in Isiah 45:7, I am simply putting it in the correct context.

BTW, this is how Youngs Literal translates verse 7.

Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

We see that God "Forms" light and "Makes" peace. By nature, form and make are "creative" words while preparing rings of condition much in the manner that Genesis 1 describes the state of earth before God created light, and made a distinction between light, and darkness.

Hi Jeff

I am glad you brought another translation into the discussion. It makes for an increasing interest to the discussion to say the least.

Now we need to ask ourselves, as to which translation is correct , right ? Which one are we going to believe.

But is it not true, that believing in a certain translation only adds to the confusion ? The scriptures still "must" be in harmony at all times. This is a given, as far as I am concerned.

Young's might think that they were right in translating this verse in this way. But were they right ? What makes any translation correct ? I read the KJV and I have my reasons why. But, I also find many discrepancies even within my KJV. With all of these discrepancies, how is one to know for sure ? Do we just pick one that suits us ? Do we say, that this is the way I believe, and this translation better suits my beliefs, so I pick this one over that one over there ?

Sounds like a crap shoot if you ask me ? LOL

What is you view on this ?

IN Christ - MM
 
All good points MM.

Tell ya what, let me see what I can find. I suppose the first place I'll go is to a couple of lexicons. Who knows, maybe I'll ask a Jew how the word create could be used (since it's the same word in both Genesis 1 as it is in Isaiah 45:7

More to come on Beis Reish Aleph ("Bara") and it's usage. :)
 
StoveBolts said:
All good points MM.

Tell ya what, let me see what I can find. I suppose the first place I'll go is to a couple of lexicons. Who knows, maybe I'll ask a Jew how the word create could be used (since it's the same word in both Genesis 1 as it is in Isaiah 45:7

More to come on Beis Reish Aleph ("Bara") and it's usage. :)

When I was trying to show that when God creates, that does not mean that the thing is now manifested itself by God creating it. God still has to make (made) it also, showing us how, by either his spoken or attributes such as his hand.

We can find this in Isaiah 45:12

Also check out Isaiah 45:18 - "formed it to be inhabited" -- "established it" -- "created it" --"made it"

God never claims anywhere within the Word, that he made evil or darkness, he only created it. Thus evil and darkness are only made into manifestation by an act of unrighteousness. Which the serpent did and water spewing out of his mouth flooded the earth.

If God made evil or darkness, that would mean that God by his own hands brought it forth. Which I do not believe to be true. I believe that evil and darkness are a manifested act of unrighteousness. Which is what was the case in Gen. 1:2 , this is why the word "became" is used here. I know, I know , we read the word "was" here. But its the Hebrew word "hayah" which means to "become" or "came to pass" or "deed that was done" or "happened".

So properly applied, the "earth came to pass" or the "earth became" without form and void.

God created evil and darkness, but only an act of unrighteousness manifests the evil and or darkness.

Love IN Christ - MM
 
MM,
What you have written above makes sense and oddly, paradoxically it fits...

(I'm still not in agreement with pulling Revelation in on this, but that's a different matter IMO)

BTW, I found this article and it seems to agree.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... e-Evil.htm

I'll ponder this over the weekend. Will get back on Monday, though a thought which just occured to me, is how we know of two women in Exodus 1 or 2 by name, who are not Hebrews, yet we don't even know the proper name of the King of Egypt... Seems that Evil is never properly named. :lol It's just something I noticed in scripture various times in various places. :yes

Grace and Peace.

Jeff
 
All Men were made for christ !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The human race and all the inhabitants of the world were made for Christ dan 4:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

They were created to manifest his ability to form different kinds and order of beings. In creating the inferior beings [ animals] he displayed his ability to create material beings, and their various usefulness to mankind..In the creation of man He showed His ability to make beings who were both material and spiritual, that is the union of the material body with the spiritual and immortal soul..

The humans were created for Christ that he may display His infinite perfections in the redemption of their souls, in this grand display and work is made known the most wonderful display of His perfections which men or angels will ever behold..

Now in creating mankind, they were created for different displays of the Divine Purposes, some of us were created as vessels of mercy, and some of us were created as vessels of wrath per rom 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

All men are made within the eternal purpose of the purpose of election rom 9 11

And within that purpose, we [ from everlasting] are either hated by God or Loved by God vs 13..

Jacob is Representative of all the beloved of God within the purpose of election and Esau is Representative of all the hated of God within the purpose of election..

Each person or group of persons have been made, that is bought into being, to display God's purpose of mercy for sinners or Gods wrath for sinners..

The vessels of wrath vs 22 are also what scripture terms the wicked as in prov 16:

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This is not speaking about people who do wicked things, but people whom all their lives, no matter what, whether very religious or non religious, will only be the wicked before God, that is vessels of wrath, created for that purpose..

The elect, are the righteous, even when they are born by nature, wicked in their mind and works..col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Now, who are the And You that Paul is addressing here, when he declares, ye were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works !

Let me tell you now, He was not speaking to the those who are called the wicked in prov 16 4 but He is speaking to the beloved of God..

Lets look at a scripture in col that will confirm this. col 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

This being beloved, was a true fact, while they were alienated and enemies in their minds by wicked works, for they were the beloved of God before they were born into that condition, even from everlasting were they the beloved of God, and never " The wicked " of prov 16 4..

But the beloved of God are born in the sinful condition we are by nature, for the purpose of mercy, thats why Paul says some are vessels of mercy rom 9:23, this mercy is displayed to them, because of what they are by nature..but, even though that is True by nature, yet are they also the righteous.. The gospel declares righteous all those believing in Jesus Christ, but before God declares one righteous, He must first view you as righteous, and just how is that done ?

2 cor 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Everyone Christ was made sin for, [ died for their sins] has been made righteous by God, because their sins, their wicked works, were never laid to their charge 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Their sins were not imputed unto them, the word imputed here is the greek word:
logizomai :

to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
a) to take into account, to make an account of
1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute

Their sins were not laid to their account as the word means here in 2 tim 4:

16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge

So the force of what Paul is saying in 2 cor 5 19, is that their is a world [ both jews and gentiles] who God does not lay to their charge, all their trespasses and sins that they shall commit. And since they never had their sins laid to their charge, they were not guilty of their crimes, and instead, their head, the Lord Jesus Christ was made to suffer and die for their crimes, because instead of God laying them to their account, He laid them to His account..Isa 53:

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

You see, God is too Just, to have laid their sins to their charge, and at the same time laid them to the charge of their shepherd !

And so the non imputation of their sins, was accompanied by the imputation of His righteousness [ their shepherd] to their account, hence they were made righteous by imputation rom 4:


6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So here we see both imputations go hand in hand, those whom have imputed righteousness vs 6 are those who have not had their sins imputed unto them vs 8 and 2 cor 5 19..

And so, we have it, God or Christ made both the wicked and the righteous.. for His redemptive purpose..

The wicked, are the vessels of wrath, who do have their sins imputed to their charge, and the vessels of mercy, the righteous, do not have their sins laid to their charge, but instead to the charge of their shepherd, and the shepherd giveth His life for the sheep, and not the goats..
 
savedbygrace7

I find it interesting how you avoid as much as possible conversations with others.

I was interested in knowing how you came up with the statement - "moral evil"

Could you please explain this please ?

IN Christ - MM
 
mystery:

I was interested in knowing how you came up with the statement - "moral evil"

You are not paying attention to what I have already posted, you are being contentious in unbelief..

I gave the definition of evil isa 45 7

Its the hebrew word ra and means all these :

bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)

f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions


Now ethically and moral are the same..

So next time you have a question, pleas look throughout the thread to see if its been answered already..
 
savedbygrace57 said:
mystery:

I was interested in knowing how you came up with the statement - "moral evil"

You are not paying attention to what I have already posted, you are being contentious in unbelief..

I gave the definition of evil isa 45 7

Its the hebrew word ra and means all these :

bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)

f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions


Now ethically and moral are the same..

So next time you have a question, pleas look throughout the thread to see if its been answered already..

savedbygrace57

You still have not answered my question ! Who says that they are ethically and moraly are the same ?

You throw comments out like this without any substance or reference.

So again I ask you, where do you get the phrase - "moral evil" from ? Not the Word of God, this I am sure ! So where do you get this phrase from ?

IN Christ - MM
 
savedbygrace57

You still have not answered my question ! Who says that they are ethically and moraly are the same ?

look it up in a dictionary..
 
savedbygrace57 said:
savedbygrace57

You still have not answered my question ! Who says that they are ethically and moraly are the same ?

look it up in a dictionary..

The two words are not connected at the hip within the dicitionary ! In fact, the two words are not connected in any way in the Word of God. In fact, they are totally seperate from one another. Meaning -- Total opposites !

So why did you connect them into one phrase ?

IN Christ - MM
 
mystery:

The two words are not connected at the hip within the dicitionary

Wow, your blindness and unbelief against the Truth has caused you to not even be reasonable enough to know a simple synonym..

After this dictionary showing, and you still disagree, I will ignore you from here on out on this issue, because then everyone will see how I showed you your folly and unreasonableness..

Here is the yahoo dictionary definition for moral and its synonyms:

ADJECTIVE:

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
NOUN:

The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, from Old French, from Latin mrlis, from ms, mr-, custom; see m-1 in Indo-European roots

OTHER FORMS:
moral·ly(Adverb)

SYNONYMS:
moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous
 
savedbygrace57 said:
mystery:

The two words are not connected at the hip within the dicitionary

Wow, your blindness and unbelief against the Truth has caused you to not even be reasonable enough to know a simple synonym..

After this dictionary showing, and you still disagree, I will ignore you from here on out on this issue, because then everyone will see how I showed you your folly and unreasonableness..

Here is the yahoo dictionary definition for moral and its synonyms:

ADJECTIVE:

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
NOUN:

The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, from Old French, from Latin mrlis, from ms, mr-, custom; see m-1 in Indo-European roots

OTHER FORMS:
moral·ly(Adverb)

SYNONYMS:
moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous

savedbygrace57

You are saying one thing and meaning another. No wonder what we have here is poor communication skills.

What you are suggesting is ----- Moral judgement -- to be able to judge between evil and good, and between light and darkness

There is no such thing as --- "Moral evil" !! But there is such a thing as "Moral judgement". Which is the ability to judge between what is "moral" and what is "immoral"

IN Christ - MM
 
Mysteryman said:
savedbygrace57 said:
mystery:

The two words are not connected at the hip within the dicitionary

Wow, your blindness and unbelief against the Truth has caused you to not even be reasonable enough to know a simple synonym..

After this dictionary showing, and you still disagree, I will ignore you from here on out on this issue, because then everyone will see how I showed you your folly and unreasonableness..

Here is the yahoo dictionary definition for moral and its synonyms:

ADJECTIVE:

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
NOUN:

The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, from Old French, from Latin mrlis, from ms, mr-, custom; see m-1 in Indo-European roots

OTHER FORMS:
moral·ly(Adverb)

SYNONYMS:
moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous

savedbygrace57

You are saying one thing and meaning another. No wonder what we have here is poor communication skills.

What you are suggesting is ----- Moral judgement -- to be able to judge between evil and good, and between light and darkness

There is no such thing as --- "Moral evil" !! But there is such a thing as "Moral judgement". Which is the ability to judge between what is "moral" and what is "immoral"

IN Christ - MM


Consider yourself ignored from here on out..You are not reasonable..
 
Hi MM, I hope your weekend was a pleasant one :)

I had a great run Saturday morning. It was perfect running weather. It was very nice to feel the ruach in my nepech as I took in God's creation which afforded me a perfect opportunity to meditate on this topic.

But anyway, I have a copy of the Rambam, and this is what I found on Bohu. It comes from Bereshith 1:1

Enjoy :)

The Rambam said:
Now listen to the correct and clear explanation of the verse in its simplicity. The Holy One, blessed be He, created all things from absolute non-existence. Now we have no expression in the sacred language for bringing forth something from nothing other than the word bara (created). Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having the power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by the Greeks hyly (matter). After the hyly, He did not create anything, but he formed and made things with it, and from this hyly He brought everything into existence and clothed the forms and put them into a finished condition.

Know that the heavens and all that is in them consists of one substance, and the earth and everythign this is in it consists of one substance. The Holy One, blessed be He, created these two substances from nothing; they alone were created, and everything else was constructed from them.

This substance, which the Greeks called hyly, is called in the sacred language tohu, the word being derived from the expression of the Sages: “betohei (when the wicked bethinks himself) of his doings in the past.†If a person wants to decide a name for it [this primordial matter], he may bethink himself, change his mind and call it by another name since it has taken on no form to which the name should be attached. The form which this substance finally takes on is called in the sacred language bohu, which is a composite word made up of the tow words bo hu (in it there is [substance]). This may be compared to the verse, Thou art not able 'asohu' (to perform it, Exodus 18:18) in which case the word asohu is missing a vav and an aleph [and I is a composite of the two words] aso hu. It is this which Scripture says, And he shall stretch over it the line of 'tohu' (confusion) and the stones of 'bohu.' (Isaiah 34:11) [The tohu in Hebrew or the hyly in Greek] is the line by which the craftsman delineates the plan of his structure and that which he hopes to make. This is derived from the expression, Kavei (Hope) unto G-d (Psalms 27:14). The stones are forms in the building. Similarly it is written, They are acconted by Him as nought and 'tohu,' (Isaiah 40:17) as tohu comes after nothingness and there is nothing yet in it.

So the Rabbis have also said in Sefer Yetzirah: “He created substance from tohu, and made that which was nothing something.â€

They have furthermore said in the Midrash of Rabbi Nechunya ben Hakanah: “Rabbi Berachyah said: “What is the meaning of the verse, And the earth was 'tohu' (without form) 'vavohu' (and void)? What is the meaning of the word “was?†It had already been tohu. And what is tohu? It is a thing which astonishes people. It was then turned into bohu. And what is bohu? It is a thing which has substance, as it is written, [bohu is a composite of the two words] “bo hu†(in it there is subtance)
 
Hi Jeff

LOL - The old something out of nothing theory - > LOL :screwloose

When God creates anything, he still needs to make after he creates it. And God does not make something out of nothing.

When God creates something, it is always a reflection of who God is. So God's creation is not something out of nothing theory.

IN Christ - MM
 
MM said:
When God creates something, it is always a reflection of who God is. So God's creation is not something out of nothing theory.

So, your saying that Evil and unrighteousness is a reflection of God?...

MM said:
God created evil and darkness, but only an act of unrighteousness manifests the evil and or darkness.

With a better understanding of bara and how it functions, it seems right to me that God creates (bara) evil, but does not 'form' or make 'evil' and I think this difference needs to be emphasized.

Stovebolts said:
We see that God "Forms" light and "Makes" peace. By nature, form and make are "creative" words while preparing (bara) rings of condition much in the manner that Genesis 1 describes the state of earth before God created (formed) light, and made a distinction between light, and darkness.

Please note the above additions in BOLD
 
Quote Jeff: "So, your saying that Evil and unrighteousness is a reflection of God?..."

Hi Jeff

I am going to do my best to explain this, so bare with me, okay ?

Evil and darkness is what God created. < We agree here

So evil , which is unrighteousness, is not a reflection of God, but is a reflection of what God undersatands within his knowledge. God knows good and evil. So when God created evil and darkness, it is just saying that he created a reflection of his knowledge of evil and darkness.

When God creates something, and in this case we are dealing with the earth and the heavens, but specifically with the earth.

God still needs to "make" the earth, after he creates it. So when God makes the earth that he has created, it "must" be a reflection of who and what God is. It can not be a reflection of what God knows and understands ! This is how we get the myth pertaining to the word "bara". God creates something that is a reflection of himself, and God creates a reflection of his knowledge and understanding.

God creating the earth is a reflection of himself = light, light etc.

When God creates something , such as evil and darkness, it is a reflection of his knowledge and udnerstanding. But it is not "made" by God. God does not "make" evil or darkness !

Evil and darkness are "only" made , when either the Devil or mankind manifest it into manifestation.

It is like something that is dormant. Evil and darkness is dormant , until such time that they , someone or the devil/Satan brings it out of its dormant stage. They need to manifest it into manifestation.

Cain is a great example of evil being manifested , when he murdered his brother Able.

When God created the earth, it was not void of life. It was "full" of life ! But it was not full of life until the day that Gdo "made" it that way. Now comes the question. When did this take place ?

The first think you must understand, is that when God creates something, it still does not exist !

God created man and created him male and female < yet man did not exist until God made man = formed him from the dust of the earth. Wet dust !

And woman was not around either, until God caused a sleep upon Adam and took a rib, and then God "made" woman. This is "when" woman became manifested into the literal realm. The female side of the man was still within Adam, until the day that God made woman. And God took the female out of the one man Adam , and made woman.

Creation by God is the first process, the next process is to make that which he created. Once it has been made, not from nothing , but from something, then it has become manifested.

The earth was now made and God's full intentions, was for it to have life upon it. And it did !

God is not void ! So when he made the earth it was not void either ! IT was full of life and light.

Something "had" to occur that brought this earth, now made, into darkness and void of life and light.

Darkness , of which God created, had to be manifested. And God does not manifest darkness ! God is all light and in him is no darkness at all.

So who or what manifested the darkness and turned the made earth in something that was void of life and now void of light, which is darkness ?

There is only "one" logical conclusion ----> The devil, the serpent ! And how did he manifest this darkness ? Simple ----> He spewed water out of his mouth upon the earth and covered the earth, and then the earth became without form and void of life and light.

Bless you

IN Christ - MM
 
savedbygrace57 said:
eph 3:


9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The purpose is shown to principalities and powers and it is shown through the true church. When angels and demons look at the true church , they will see the purpose of God. Its the mystery which Paul speaks about: God joining with man. The two becoming one flesh.Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is great: but I speak in regard of Christ and of the church.


Its the manifestation of God's sons, Christ manifest in His body of believers here on earth1Jn 3:2 ........... We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him;,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

God is duplicating Christ in us. His nature, His character and His authority.
 
MM said:
So evil , which is unrighteousness, is not a reflection of God, but is a reflection of what God understands within his knowledge. God knows good and evil. So when God created evil and darkness, it is just saying that he created a reflection of his knowledge of evil and darkness.

Our actions are a reflection of what we know, and who we are.

I would say that evil / good and unrighteousness / righteousness are not tangible entities on their own, but rather, it would be the result and thus reflective of an act which is tangible and thus,indicative to forming and making. Simply put, for the results of evil to manifest and thus reflected, something tangible must be formed.

God has knowledge of good and evil, and that knowledge, and knowledge alone creates (bara) good and evil, yet God does not manifest / reflect evil in any way shape or form, but rather divides good from evil by forming / making good.

MM said:
God creating the earth is a reflection of himself = light, light etc.
While I understand your thinking, I don't think that reflection is a good term to use. Let's take a look at the text can we?

kjv Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God creates heaven and earth, yet according to the text, God forms light, and he does so by speaking. You see, the earth had no form and had no substance. It was simply bara and needed shape, needed substance. It is of interest that spirit here, is the word ruwach, which depending on context is taken as spirit, or wind, or a resemblance of breath. And when God "Said", it is to speak, and to speak, is to breath. In other words, the act of forming and making is active. Creating is not a tangible reflection of oneself, forming and making is.

MM said:
When God creates something , such as evil and darkness, it is a reflection of his knowledge and understanding. But it is not "made" by God. God does not "make" evil or darkness !
I still do not like the semantics associated with reflection. A reflection is tangible because it is based on substance much in the same way as looking into a mirror. However, we are in agreement that God does not form or make evil.

MM said:
Evil and darkness are "only" made , when either the Devil or mankind manifest it into manifestation.
I would agree, but I would restate it to say, "when either the Devil or mankind manifest it through a formable action."

MM said:
The first think you must understand, is that when God creates something, it still does not exist !
I agree, which is why I emphasize that reflection is a bad use of words. I can bara a nice dinner for my wife, but until I make it, it's nothing...

MM said:
God is not void ! So when he made the earth it was not void either ! IT was full of life and light.

Something "had" to occur that brought this earth, now made, into darkness and void of life and light.

I understand your line of reasoning, but to say that the earth was full of light and life, and then became void and dark to which God responds by forming it once again would require a reference to that understanding within the Torah.

So far I have enjoyed our conversation. I await your respond.

Grace and Peace,
Jeff
 
Back
Top