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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Did the Son have a beginning?
- Thread starter Faith and Grace
- Start date
- Jul 13, 2012
- 40,337
- 8,422
Why would Elohim include all the angels?
The word Elohim is plural.
The context dictates if the word refers to “gods” such as wicked spirits or the Creator God who created man in His image or God who created the heavens and the earth.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26
“You shall have no other gods before Me. Exodus 20:3
Spirit OF God not God the Spirit which designates a 3rd distinct mind from the Father. HS=The person of the Father who Jesus calls the only true God and His God. Why do you think Jesus had to ask the Father for this other advocate that the Father would send in His name? The truth Jesus testified to He stated He received it from His Father and also that if you see Him you have seen the Father who was living in Him doing HIS work. The Fathers works He performed testified to this ONENESS as He testified. The Spirit of truth=Person of the Father
You think the host of heaven forgot to proclaim honor and power and glory to God the Spirit or God the Spirit wasn't worthy? Which one?
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
You think Paul forgot this 3rd person or nothing was from and through Him? Which one?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Jesus failed/forgot to acknowledge this 3rd person or it's not necessary to know Him in regard to eternal life? Which one?
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
The Father is God and the source of all things in the NT and the source true God in the creeds. It's His Spirit always.
Jesus never refers to the HS as his God and Father. Because Mary conceived by the Spirit of the Father not a 3rd other person.
The Spirit of truth testifies.
Those who listen to the FATHER and learn from the FATHER go to JESUS. All that the FATHER gives Him will come to Him.
Jesus-No one comes to me unless the FATHER enables them.//no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Keep in mind it's the Fathers Spirit always as He is the true God.
The point of will of the mind of Christ=>the Spirit acts=The Spirit of Christ
The point of will of the mind of the Father=>The Spirit acts=The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord, our Father
Matt 10:3
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
- Jul 13, 2012
- 40,337
- 8,422
Elohim is God.
- Jul 13, 2012
- 40,337
- 8,422
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26
Did God create the heavens and the earth or did angels?
- Apr 2, 2003
- 23,748
- 6,586
As I said, of course God is singular--there is only one God. You are erroneously equating monotheism with the nature of God (whether he is one person or three). Those are two distinct ideas that need to be dealt with separately.
You're begging the question by first assuming that "the fullness of the Deity" is "the Father's nature."
That is what it means, both in the Greek and in context, as I showed.
No, that is a very dishonest and misleading reading, which you are free to believe all you want.
Perhaps try reading the points I gave.
I never said that deity was emptied. Once again, try reading the points I gave. The context proves your understanding in error--the emptying, done by the Son himself, was by the addition of human form. It seems as though you're not reading the passage with any attempt to understand what it is saying.
Try re-reading the passage and my points. The Son emptied himself--he was something and then "emptied himself." You're actually making the Son greater than the Father, by saying the Son did something which was "not possible" for the Father. You've made the Son the Father and the Father the Son.
This is completely irrelevant to the point I made. Please address the point I made, as it also refers to the first point, which you didn't understand or didn't read.
What do you mean "the spirit of the firstborn"?
And, we know that that does not preclude Jesus from also being truly God, as numerous passages state, including the one being discussed here. You're ignoring that Paul says every knee will bow to Jesus, while Isa. says every knee will bow to God. Every knee will bow to Jesus because he is God, so both Paul and Isa. are correct.
And Christians worship Christ as Lord and God, just like Thomas and the rest of the disciples.
Okay, but that completely ignores my argument: "The whole point of this passage is to show the humility of Christ, which we are to have (verses 1-5). There is no greater example of humility that could be conceived than that of God (the Son) coming to earth and taking on the form of one of his creatures."
I don't know what your point is.
Basic logic still escapes you. If "all things" came "though Him" and he is "before all things," then it logically follows that the Son cannot have come into being. If he came into being, then "all things" is false, because the Son would be one of those things.
Why not? There is no logical issue here.
Again, But what does it mean to be "the image of the invisible God"?
Of course, but I have shown many times that your reasoning is poor.
You're once again ignoring my points. Please address the fact that the Bible uses the same titles of both Yahweh and Jesus.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)
- Apr 2, 2003
- 23,748
- 6,586
No--'Your confusing "from whom" with "through whom"'--is not at all relevant as to whether or not the Son came into being. The relevant part is "all things"--if "all things" came into being through the Son, and they did, then it is logically impossible for the Son to have come into being. If he came into being, then he is one of those things, contradicting "all things," since it is nonsense to say he came into being through himself.
Besides, look at what else Paul says of God:
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (ESV)
And of the Son:
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
And of both the Father and the Son:
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
Which, of course, is in perfect agreement with John:
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)
The Son is precluded from ever having been made, from ever having come into being.
The Father is in the Son, but you continually leave out that the Son is in the Father. You're also ignoring the fact that Jesus says that--that is post incarnation.
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” (ESV)
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (ESV)
Of course. I have never said otherwise and nothing I have said implies such.
I have no idea what your point is here. The Nicene Creed states "by whom all things were made" because the Bible says so, as I have repeatedly quoted.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
The Son is in the Father, just as the Father is in the Son, but that is speaking of after the incarnation.
You're begging the question again by assuming that "all the fullness of God" (Col. 1:19, ESV) is "The Father in Him."
You're ignoring what the writer of Hebrews says: The Father says 'of the Son . . . And, "You, Lord [YHWH], laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heaves are the work of your hands" (ESV). Nowhere does the Father say that it is his own deity in the Son by which he created. The idea doesn't even make sense. Why wouldn't the Father just create everything himself?
In the incarnation, yes, Jesus calls his Father God, as he should. But that in no way whatsoever means that Jesus, or rather the Son, isn't also truly God. He is truly equal to the Father; the Jews understood this to be the case. Different roles do not indicate an inferiority or difference of nature or being.
What is "about the Son not about God"?
This is circular. Also, your saying so doesn't make it so. You need to prove it, logically.
Of course. What is your point?
The reason he is called "the image of the invisible God" and "the firstborn of all creation" in Col. 1:15 is given in verses 16 and 17; that is what the "For" indicates to start verse 16. It is on the basis of his having created "all things," meaning he cannot have come into being.
As I said there is only one Deity who is the First and Last, the God and Father of us all from whom all things come. The Father. Is His Deity, without limit, (fullness), that dwells in His Firstborn by His will. All creation was made by His will and at His command. The Deity in His Son created. As By Him, through Him and for Him, God created.
The Father is the only true God as Jesus states, from Him all things come as Paul and REV states. (NT) its not a question but truth. Therefore, if you believe the Son is from the Father the Deity remains the Fathers.
Jesus has always been the Son.
I believe this is the Fathers Will->"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name"
True God is Not a possible answer as Jesus calls His Father the only true God and His God and OUR God. He did not include His person in these declarations other than the context of HIS GOD AND FATHER.
If the Father states about the His Son, therefore God, YOUR GOD -Jesus whom you believe was fully God as the Son of Man and a coeternal being RECEIVED authority and as we also read in Hebrews 1 was appointed heir of all things from the one who owns them. God, our Father
Reason should state if one calls another their God and Father that other is greater.
I have the Spirit of Christ in me and I know Him to be my Lord and the Father to be our God. And I have loved Him and prayed to Him as far back as my memory goes.
The spirit of the Firstborn from the beginning of creation descended and was in that body and the Deity of the Father was living in Him. They have always been one in that manner as Jesus testified.
I think you do. "Why the need as doesn't it already belong to Him as the coeternal God person of the Son and don't you state Jesus was fully God with no beginning" Did the Logos cease to exist and became the Son and remained the Son?
And why the need as don't they know their God and isn't He fully God as you state? Hebrews 1:6
Thats the problem having a conversation with you as you elevate your reasoning above all and claim you can't see the point.
He has always been the Son and God has always been His God and Father. The Son receives from His God and Father all things and that's NOT coeternal. God greatly exalted His Firstborn above all others. All will bow their knees to Jesus willingly or unwillingly.
Basic logic- God spoke to us in these last days BY His Son. The Deity of the Father living in His Son doing His work.
God created BY His Son. The Deity of the Father living in His Son doing His work. (Through Him all things were made)
All things are NOT from the Son but are FROM the Father.
Again Hebrews 1:3
You don't like my reasoning because we have different teachers. Yours clearly is the doctrine of the trinity.
I don't ignore you rather you don't like my answers.
You already know there are two variances in the Greek manuscripts. The only begotten Son or the only begotten God who was in the Fathers presence.
God spoke to us BY His Son. The Deity living in Christ Jesus doing HIS work.
God created BY His Son. The Deity that was pleased to dwell in the Son doing HIS work. The Son was chosen before the creation of the world not at the incarnation. Col 1:19-From the will of another
"Through Him" all things were made.
God created in Him, by Him, through Him and for Him all things.
Jesus is not a angel He is the Son. A Son in whom the Father was pleased that all His fullness should dwell. A Son who is before all things except His God and Father. The beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation. Gods Firstborn.
ONLY way Jesus deity can be denied is thru and by severe distortion of the greek texts, such as by adding "all other created things" or by calling the word was "a god"
Jesus is very God
