The evolution god of atheist

[Evointrinsic]

This is a rather contentious statement. What evidence is there to show Piranha are capable of moral reasoning? Are there any cases in which moral reasoning has been observed in a species other than our own? How do we know the actions were the result of moral reasoning?

Ironically, Your questions are arguing my "hidden" statement. Being, "Why cant morality simply be instinctual (natural)" and "If god is necessary for morality, why do animals who also work together not kill each other without a belief in god?"

 

[Guest]

Ironically, Your questions are arguing my "hidden" statement. Being, "Why cant morality simply be instinctual (natural)" and "If god is necessary for morality, why do animals who also work together not kill each other without a belief in god?"

This is incorrect. You are not merely asking the question, but you are presenting a perspective (i.e., making a claim). I am asking you to support this perspective, be it specific to the piranha or through a more general argument.

 

[Evointrinsic]

I can do so in a PM if you'd like?

 

[Silver Bullet]

a man-centered view based on the idea that man is naturally good. A person who is not ruled by God is ruled by 'self'. I hope I have been more clear.

Thanks lovely.

While your comments are not specifically addressed at atheists, they clearly do address atheists, and it seems to me that there is an implication in your view that man without Jesus is selfish, and that this is a strawman. If I'm wrong, please clarify. Presumably, your views are echoed by Solo:

All who deny the existence of God Almighty are too selfish to submit to any other god other than themselves. This is the nature of the natural man; a non-spiritual entity lost and bound for an eternity without God Almighty.

(Solo, I deny the existence of God because there isn't nearly enough evidence to convince me that he does exist. This has nothing to do with how selfish I am)

Of course, man is selfish at times and selfless at others, and I see no evidence that Christians have a monopoly on selflessness.

Humans who are not psychopaths can recognize when they have "sinned" without needing to recognize your God (that is that I completely reject your assertion that you wouldn't appreciate your sinful nature without loving and fearing God; do you have no conscience?).

I think the atheist is 'ruled' by much more than self: we consider the implications of our actions on others. This includes obligations to other animals and our planet. We employ reason and other psychological capabilities to 'rule' or guide our behavior, and it is clear that these faculties interplay with our emotions. It is quite clear that we repeatedly fail to live up to our obligations to each other, and anybody who believes that 'man is good' is simply naive as it is much more complicated than that. I certainly have no need of belief in your God to acknowledge that naiveté. I haven't encountered a good reason to believe that your Christian world view results in less selfish behavior on the part of Christians than non-Christians or atheists who do not share this view in general.

From my perspective, your are presenting an oversimplification of life without God, and it is a common one among Christians.

SB

 

[Silver Bullet]

lovely,

On another note, I am also confused by the following:

the Word tells us to deny our 'self', die to our 'self', because Jesus did this... We are to submit to the Father and be willing to let His will be done in our lives for the sake of His Kingdom..."not my will, but Thine..." Prior to belief in Christ,...we walk by our own will and we feel worthy to do so...When we are born again in Christ, we submit to God's will

I have read so much in this Forum about how our free will is a gift from loving God. Are you implying that in fact, God has only given us free will so that we can choose to give it up and "walk by His will?" This raises a follow-up question: what about the concept that God gives us free will so that he can reclaim it or else he will assure that we eternally burn in hell suggests that he loves us or really wants our will to be truly free?

SB

 

[Guest]

I can do so in a PM if you'd like?

It can be relevant to the topic, and so it can be posted here. If the moderators want to get their panties in a twist, then they can ban me rather than you.

 

[Evointrinsic]

It can be relevant to the topic, and so it can be posted here. If the moderators want to get their panties in a twist, then they can ban me rather than you.

Unfortunately it would still be me disobeying the rules (if it were broken), so to take the safe way, ill pm you.

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately it would still be me disobeying the rules (if it were broken), so to take the safe way, ill pm you.

The safe way? It's a message board. They are not communist ogres who are going to come gnaw off your toes. If you are unwilling to continue this discussion on the public message boards, then I am unwilling to continue the discussion with you.

 

[lovely]

SB,

Yes, what I am saying includes atheists since they are not believers, but I wanted to be careful to not exclude all others who do not follow Christ in what I was saying. There are only two categories, as I said. I think that selfishness is not exactly what I am saying, though I do get Solo's meaning. We suffer, as human race, with three categories of sin, the pride of life, the lust of the eyes, and the lust of the flesh. Adam was tempted in all three areas and failed, Jesus was tempted and did not fail. He walked perfectly here, in deed, and with a pure motivation of love. You do not meet that standard, and neither do I. You are a sinner, just like every other human, and God provided a Sacrifice to take your sin away so that you could obtain salvation and life. As I said before, it's not a comparison of men, or of who's the most selfish.

Your post seemed to make my point. You are saying that we employ our conscience, reason, psychological capabilities, emotions, etc. to rule our behavior. Yes, we do use these things, they are our compass, but God is the true north by which we set our compass. You believe that we are equipped for the most part, unless that equipment is somehow not working, but how can the equipment work if it is not set properly? Apart from God it's not working properly. You admit that we can not always live up to our obligations to others, to animals, to this planet, etc. We also fail to live up to our obligations to God. God's Truth is what you should be comparing yourself with, not a Christian world-view, and then maybe you will see that only Christ has been sinless and a picture of unselfish love among men.

I would also like to make another point. When anyone follows the principals of God's truth, there are natural rewards built into Creation. The Bible says that it also rains on the just and unjust, and so even God's kindness is just poured out on all of us as an example of His love and charity. These things are teach us, and for me they add to the proof that God is real, and that He loves us and wants us to walk in goodness and truth. I can't believe that Creation is, or these specific components of nature, are due to some kind of force of nature, or an accident.

Anyway, You consider me a liar when I say that my love and fear of God has truly shown me my sinful nature. I can not prove to you that this is true, but I will say that when the Truth of God sunk in, the words of Jesus, when He said if you hate you are guilty of murder, instantly caused me to understand that I am more sinful and guilty than I ever realized before...btw, this is an ongoing process for me. My sin is an offense to God, and even when I am working in my home and caring for my children, I have thoughts and feelings that are an offense to God that I need to repent about. I am compelled by my relationship with Him to do His will, and be conformed more to the image of Christ.

This all may be an oversimplification, but simple doesn't mean it's untrue. I don't really think that it needs to be made more complicated to be honest.

I have read so much in this Forum about how our free will is a gift from loving God. Are you implying that in fact, God has only given us free will so that we can choose to give it up and "walk by His will?" This raises a follow-up question: what about the concept that God gives us free will so that he can reclaim it or else he will assure that we eternally burn in hell suggests that he loves us or really wants our will to be truly free

SB,

It's my understanding from the Word that my will is not free prior to belief. I am bound to sin and unable to walk in the Light of God's Truth, and so my will is pressed upon by deception and sin and not free at all due to a sin nature. It is only after I come to God that my will is more 'free', but not in a libertarian sense, it is free to follow a new nature that is in harmony with God's will. My will is free to serve God's goodness and love, and free to be as it was created to be in the pattern of Christ. Concerning life on a new Earth, I see this as more of a Monarchy model than a Democratic-Republic.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Unfortunately it would still be me disobeying the rules (if it were broken), so to take the safe way, ill pm you.

The safe way? It's a message board. They are not communist ogres who are going to come gnaw off your toes. If you are unwilling to continue this discussion on the public message boards, then I am unwilling to continue the discussion with you.

There is no reason to potentially disobey forum rules when we could simply avoid that incident all together. Unless your sole intent of course is to try and humiliate me somehow?

I for one am in no position to be making potential rule breaking threats as being an atheist, some people on the forum already hate me, so i would prefer to keep it safe.

 

[lovely]

Evo,

I just wanted to comment on your statement that some here hate you. I don't think that is the case at all. I don't. The Lord bless you.

 

[turnorburn]

Hugely stereotypical, and grossly wrong.

There are plenty of atheist who do not care about or study evolution. Many Buddhists for example.

I for one do not study much on it myself, and could care less from a atheistic standpoint if for some reason it was completely over turned.

Also, many atheists also have a love for science. Evolution is a part of science so naturally many atheists are attracted to it. Just like many atheists love to read/study different theories on the cosmos.

You need to change your signature there Vault Zero 4 Me, when it should read I am an animal with
dilutions of grandeur would make it more convincing, don't you think? :yes

turnorburn

 

[Evointrinsic]

Thank you lonely. i was speaking out of a bit of frustration. I dont believe that either. I am pretty convinced that some may find my presence uncomfortable or suspicious however.

 

[Imagican]

How about a 'believer in Christ' that accepts MUCH of the understanding of evolution as well?

Evolution is a 'fact of life', (that is for those that are able to bear it). It takes NOTHING away from God. For IF evolution EXISTS, it is through the design of God that it be so.

Now, evolution so far as mankind is concerned? We have certainly 'changed' over the time period of our existence here on this planet. But, did we 'come from apes'? That is rediculous. For IF we came from apes, we would have retained those features that BENEFIT the ape. I do NOT believe that apes evolved into humans.

But we can clearly see the evidence of evolution in MANY species. To deny this is to deny REALITY. God did NOT perform some 'cosmic joke' when it comes to physical evidence that we have of those creatures that lived PREVIOUS. They DID INDEED live and evolve into those that we SEE today.

It does not take one 'worshiping' knowledge to accept it. And it does not take atheism to believe in evolution.

I can assure you that there are those that are able to rightfully discern the TRUTH between God and the physical world in which we live. As a matter of FACT, the ability that we have to LEARN was a 'gift from God'. What we DO with it, on the other hand, that is the 10,000 dollar question.

One has to wonder if the time spent STUDYING the world in which we live couln't be 'better spent'. For God SHOULD be paramont to ANYTHING that we DO.

Yes, I am quite sure that 'evolution' could very well BE one's God. But then, so could their 'church', 'car', 'spouse', 'money', 'children', 'home', etc............... It becomes a matter of perspective as to WHAT we DEVOTE our time and efforts TO.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Silver Bullet]

Silver Bullet,

If you notice, I didn't even mention atheists in my post. There are two categories in my opinion, those who believe on Jesus Christ, and those who don't. The idea of self, as I mean it here, is that somehow we can be good ourselves apart from God, or in the case of other religions, that we must work our way to God with our good works. Only God is holy and good, and man's nature is sinful. It's not a comparison of men, except in philosophy, but it is a comparison between man's nature and God's.

lovely,

Thanks for clarifying. That is a mouthful of meaning to all trickle out of the word 'self'.

Having said that, I still have no idea what you mean.

Best,
SB

Simply put. All who deny the existence of God Almighty are too selfish to submit to any other god other than themselves. This is the nature of the natural man; a non-spiritual entity lost and bound for an eternity without God Almighty.

I think that selfishness is not exactly what I am saying, though I do get Solo's meaning.

Selfish: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others

Thus, it seems that Solo's comment, and whatever part of it lovely gets, is absurd.

Comments such as these imply that atheists are selfish, and therefore disregard the welfare of others, while all that atheists actually do is disregard claims about the existence of God. These comments create a strawman by distorting the plain meaning of words and oversimplifying the complex spectrum of atheist world views. I suggest using different words to convey that notion that atheists can believe that humans can navigate life, albeit imperfectly, without relying on other beliefs that are indistinguishable from myth.

SB

 

[Solo]

Simply put. All who deny the existence of God Almighty are too selfish to submit to any other god other than themselves. This is the nature of the natural man; a non-spiritual entity lost and bound for an eternity without God Almighty.

I think that selfishness is not exactly what I am saying, though I do get Solo's meaning.

Selfish: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others

Thus, it seems that Solo's comment, and whatever part of it lovely gets, is absurd.

Comments such as these imply that atheists are selfish, and therefore disregard the welfare of others, while all that atheists actually do is disregard claims about the existence of God. These comments create a strawman by distorting the plain meaning of words and oversimplifying the complex spectrum of atheist world views. I suggest using different words to convey that notion that atheists can believe that humans can navigate life, albeit imperfectly, without relying on other beliefs that are indistinguishable from myth.

SB

The term "selfish" is not a term of absurdity as it relates to the belief of atheism; but denotes the prioritizing of oneself higher than another authority as it relates to origin of self and authority over self.

An atheist denounces the origin of man by a creator, and places oneself on a plane of higher importance as he/she believes that he/she has evolved from a lower form of life to higher form of life, and is therefore superior than the the original origin of ancestry. Also an atheist does not conform to any authority over self other than those whom he/she determines as right and beneficial to self. In that light, the belief of atheism allows one to place their own "self" higher in priority than another origin or authority; and in the process can ridicule or determine other beliefs as being foolish.

As the Word of God says, the natural (physical) man cannot understand the spiritual truths because to him the spiritual truths are foolishness. That is why SB has determined that relying on other beliefs than those that he, himself, has allowed is mythical (foolishness).

• 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[Silver Bullet]

The term "selfish" ... denotes the prioritizing of oneself higher than another authority as it relates to origin of self and authority over self.

No it doesn't. Look at the definition of the word selfish. It has nothing to do with whether one "prioritizes" oneself, or humanity, below God (who happens to be indistinguishable from myth) or one believes that God is a myth.

You should find different words to convey your point without implying that atheists are selfish. You are hijacking the word selfish and all of its negative impact.

SB

 

[Solo]

selfâ‹…ish
  

• /ˈsÉ›lfɪʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sel-fish] Show IPA
  –adjective
  • devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
  • characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.[/*:m:25s5fugy]
  Origin:
  1630–40; self + -ish 1[/*:m:25s5fugy][/list:u:25s5fugy]
  
  Related forms:
  selfâ‹…ishâ‹…ly, adverb
  selfâ‹…ishâ‹…ness, noun
  
  Synonyms:
  1. self-interested, self-seeking, egoistic; illiberal, parsimonious, stingy.
  
  Definition 1 defines the word selfish as devotion to oneself which fits my rendition of atheists being devoted to self instead of God Almighty. The definition continues that selfishness is a characteristic of one who cares only for oneself; which in the light of the belief of atheism, all other beliefs are not cared for other than those that align with the atheists own set of beliefs. Note also that definition 1 describes that selfish individuals are "concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others." In other words, atheists are primarily concerned with their own Beliefs and Interests which benefits their take on things in reference to origins of life and authority over them; as well as what benefits their welfare based on their beliefs.
  
  Atheists do not like anyone to make any rules for them to follow other than those that they determine are right. Atheists do not like to devote themselves to anything other than that which they determine is what they should devote themselves to. Atheists are selfish in this way regardless of who or what they give to. They make up their own rules to follow without regard to devotion to their creator and authority over them. The 10 commandments are rules that atheists pick and choose what their moral propensity should be and then follows only those which they determine are moral codes to follow. Stealing may not be a moral code to them if it does not align with their selfish decision to accomplish specific actions required to benefit them regardless of God's declaration. Atheists make themselves God over all that they think and do because of the self-serving attitudes that they have.
  
  I can choose to believe the Scriptures that Jesus Christ quoted from which says, "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good", or I can believe an atheist that says, "There is no God." I will submit to God's authority and make the choice that what He says is truth.

 

[Silver Bullet]

Definition 1 defines the word selfish as devotion to oneself which fits my rendition of atheists being devoted to self instead of God Almighty.

No no no. You are ignoring the "regardless of others" part, which is critical.

If I'm stranded on a deserted island and I catch a fish, I'm not selfish if I consume the entire meal. No "others" are involved, so it can't be selfish of me to eat the entire meal. It doesn't matter if I submit to Christ or not. Selfishness does not refer to placing my interests above God's: it refers to putting my interests above those of other people.

You haven't provided any good reason to believe that atheist's put their personal interests ahead of those of others anymore than construction workers, or people with black hair, or anybody. You have not provided any good reason to believe that atheists put their interests ahead of others anymore than Christians do (and there is no such evidence). You've only stated the obvious, which is that atheists disregard claims about the existence of God.

I can't make myself anymore clear on this fallacy of yours, and readers will just have to decide on their own whether you are hijacking the word seflish and all of its negative implications to create a strawman of atheism.

SB

 

[Solo]

Definition 1 defines the word selfish as devotion to oneself which fits my rendition of atheists being devoted to self instead of God Almighty.

No no no. You are ignoring the "regardless of others" part, which is critical.

If I'm stranded on a deserted island and I catch a fish, I'm not selfish if I consume the entire meal. No "others" are involved, so it can't be selfish of me to eat the entire meal. It doesn't matter if I submit to Christ or not. Selfishness does not refer to placing my interests above God's: it refers to putting my interests above those of other people.

You haven't provided any good reason to believe that atheist's put their personal interests ahead of those of others anymore than construction workers, or people with black hair, or anybody. You have not provided any good reason to believe that atheists put their interests ahead of others anymore than Christians do (and there is no such evidence). You've only stated the obvious, which is that atheists disregard claims about the existence of God.

I can't make myself anymore clear on this fallacy of yours, and readers will just have to decide on their own whether you are hijacking the word seflish and all of its negative implications to create a strawman of atheism.

SB

First of all you have confused the entire dissertation of the point of atheists being selfish. Pay careful attention to what I am saying here.

Atheists may be giving in their practices to others. They are not selfish in this way. Selfishness can mean stingy as well, but this is not the point that I have made. Atheists are selfish in that they are self-serving when it comes to submitting to another in authority over them. From an atheist's perspective, if there is a God, then I have to obey Him or be cast out; therefore, I do not believe in God so I can continue to serve myself instead of Him. Continuing on from an atheist's perspective, I have developed from a lower life form into the higher life form that I now am, for I was never created by a higher life form than me for I am the best that can be at this time.

Self-serving attitudes concerning ones origins and authorities are selfish as they override all others unless one determines of their own authority to do anything at all for others. Atheists do not love their neighbor as commanded by God; they love their neighbor if they want to. Atheists do not give to others as commanded by God; they give to others if they want to. Atheists do not steal as commanded by God; they do not steal because they determine not to. Atheists are self-serving and selfish; therefore, they cannot serve God or any other unless THEY WANT TO.