[_ Old Earth _] The Evolution Lie

[Jack Spratt]

Barbarian.....

I have a simple question for you...


Is there anything in the book of Genesis that, if taken totally literally, totally as the words state....would be impossible for our awesome, all powerful, all knowing, ever present, eternal to eternal God to do? Is their a detail that you can look at and say "God couldn't have done that"?

 

[Jack Spratt]

That's not what it says. Indeed, as Jesus says, God has no body. God doesn't have a nose or earlobes, or hands.



Had to. Plants died. Adam was a heterotroph; he had to eat something living to survive.



God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree. Yet Adam lives on many years, physically. The death God mentioned was a spiritual death, not a physical one. Indeed, if Jesus came to save us from a physical death, He failed. We will all die someday. He saved us from a deeper, spiritual death.



If you're right, God goofed. Because He made all these organisms, able to reproduce. If (and using your assumptions) Adam hadn't sinned, the world would be quickly overrun by flies, weeds, bacteria, etc.

Think.

Ok,

One at a time,

1/
Exodus 31:18King James Version (KJV)
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Nuff said there I believe,

2/
Of course Adam and Eve ate food... as the saying goes.... "if you want to eat.... something must die"
Your argument is ?

3/
Our bodies are designed to live forever. Our cells can replicate continually. Sin changed that.


Genesis 3:

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

4/

As shown above, weeds and such were a result of the fall. As was human death and returning to the dust he was formed from.

I am sure that God could keep control of bacteria and the population of bugs and such would be kept in balance by Him. Remember all the reptiles and birds would eat bugs.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian.....

I have a simple question for you...

Is there anything in the book of Genesis that, if taken totally literally, totally as the words state....would be impossible for our awesome, all powerful, all knowing, ever present, eternal to eternal God to do? Is their a detail that you can look at and say "God couldn't have done that"?

That all things are possible for God, is not license for us to make up new things that He "must have done." Notice the addition to scripture that creationists make by demanding that He made Adam with his hands (which Jesus says He doesn't have).

I notice also that when one points out those additions creationists make to scripture, there's a hasty retreat, and a denial, as shown above.

 

[Barbarian]

"What do you mean that's not what he says"

It's already there for you.
That's not what it says. Indeed, as Jesus says, God has no body. God doesn't have a nose or earlobes, or hands.

 

[Barbarian]

Exodus 31:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Nuff said there I believe,"

Except that Jesus says that God is a spirit. And Jesus says a spirit has no body. So either Jesus is wrong, or that "finger" is figurative. Which do you think it is?

Of course Adam and Eve ate food... as the saying goes.... "if you want to eat.... something must die"
Your argument is ?

Just another demonstration that the "death" God promised would happen to Adam the day he ate from the tree was a spiritual death. Plants had to die in order for Adam to live. Adam killed plants and of course, he didn't die physically that day. He died spiritually. And that was the reason Jesus came to save us. Not from a physical death, but from an eternal spiritual death. As the Bible makes clear.

Our bodies are designed to live forever.

Nope. Programmed to die. In the very structure of our being, we have the nature to wear out and die. It's the way it works. When He made life, He made it so that new organisms would be produced, and old ones would die to make way for them. Our cells have only so many divisions, until the telomeres are gone, and we start to decline.

Our cells can replicate continually.

Wrong.

Telomeres have been compared with the plastic tips on shoelaces, because they keep chromosome ends from fraying and sticking to each other, which would destroy or scramble an organism's genetic information.


Yet, each time a cell divides, the telomeres get shorter. When they get too short, the cell can no longer divide; it becomes inactive or "senescent" or it dies. This shortening process is associated with aging, cancer, and a higher risk of death. So telomeres also have been compared with a bomb fuse.
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/telomeres/

If we could find a way to stop that, we could in principle, live forever physically. But that was not God's plan for us.

Sin changed that.

Nope. Death was the way He intended it to be. You don't need to fear physical death at all, if you're a Christian.

 

[Jack Spratt]

That all things are possible for God, is not license for us to make up new things that He "must have done." Notice the addition to scripture that creationists make by demanding that He made Adam with his hands (which Jesus says He doesn't have).

I notice also that when one points out those additions creationists make to scripture, there's a hasty retreat, and a denial, as shown above.

I believe that "make up new things that He must have done" is the evolutionists deed.

Creationists take the bible as it is written. We do this due to the fact that God is so awesomely powerful and there is no limits to what He can do. Therefore, I do not have to make things up. I believe it as it is stated. God spoke and it happened.

Evolutionists, on the other hand, say "ya that's what its says but what it doesn't say is .........and........and............."

If God has the ability to do anything and nothing is impossible for God.

Matthew 19:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Genesis 18:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord?

Job 42:2
"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Jeremiah 32:17
"Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.

Mark 10:27
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

As I stated in my other post, God wrote the 10 commandments in stone with His own finger. That, again, is another scripture that I take as written, God breathed to men inspired by the Holy Spirit to pen the words that they did.

So..
God made Adam from dust with His hands, breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, then, later, made Eve from Adam's rib...... That is all.

I truly believe evolutionists are the ones who are "making new things up"

 

[Jack Spratt]

That all things are possible for God, is not license for us to make up new things that He "must have done." Notice the addition to scripture that creationists make by demanding that He made Adam with his hands (which Jesus says He doesn't have).

I notice also that when one points out those additions creationists make to scripture, there's a hasty retreat, and a denial, as shown above.

This was a "yes" or "no" question.

 

[turnorburn]

Where in the bible does it say that Jesus has no hands? no nose? your making things up Barbarian maybe you didn't read this in its entirety.. "in our image" "after our likeness" means just what it says..

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

tob

 

[Jack Spratt]

Barbarian, can you give me the chapter and verse as to where Jesus states that God is a Spirit.
Also,

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him (Colossians 1:16)

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These scriptures generally show that the "word" here is Jesus himself. It is also accepted that Jesus was the one who created the universe.
Therefore, even if you can show me where Jesus says God doesn't have fingers etc, Jesus is part of the trinity and is God and He has fingers and toes.

Also have you not read the scripture shown below?

Genesis 3:8King James Version (KJV)
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

How did Adam and Eve hear God walking? He must have legs and feet. Spirits don't make noise when they walk.

 

[Barbarian]

I believe that "make up new things that He must have done" is the evolutionists deed.

Creationists take the bible as it is written.

Notice that in this thread, a creationist felt it necessary to add "hands" to God's creation. Jesus says God is a spirit,and that spirits have no body.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So the problem is that YE creationists are always trying to add their new doctrine to scripture. And it always fails.

We do this due to the fact that God is so awesomely powerful and there is no limits to what He can do.

That He can do anything is not evidence that He did everything. Sorry.

Therefore, I do not have to make things up.

As you see, a creationist in this thread added new things. And apparently was not aware that Jesus had Himself said that God is a spirit, and that spirits don't have bodies.

If scripture is good enough, why do creationists constantly try to add things to it?

 

[Barbarian]

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The "likeness and image" was in our souls, not our bodies. God didn't look like a Neandertal, or a Cro-magnon, or any kind of caveman. He is not an animal at all. Our bodies are animals, but our souls are in the image of God.

 

[Edward]

I think barbarian just likes to argue. now, brother, please do take that in a bad way, that was said in a very light hearted manner with all sorts of brotherly love with it.

Bless you brother.

 

[Barbarian]

As a Christian and as a scientist, I am not happy when atheists or creationists attempt to make science and faith incompatible.

 

[Edward]

As a Christian and as a scientist, I am not happy when atheists or creationists attempt to make science and faith incompatible.

You're right brother. they are very compatible. I notice that in these end times, that the Lord is revealing more to all. While He wants us to have faith, he is providing proof also. Archaeological proofs, scientific proofs, and biblical proofs, as in hidden codes and a grammatical structure which reveals that it was put together in such a way so as to have numerical significance and things of that nature which could not have been conspired by old time rabbis or something...Like this for instance;

 

[turnorburn]

This thread is called the evolution lie.. Barbarian, when you suggested one of the members join Biologos i looked it up..

The Danger of BioLogos
Blurring the Line Between Creation and Evolution

by John UpChurch on September 23, 2011; last featured September 25,

https://answersingenesis.org/theistic-evolution/the-danger-of-biologos/

Evangelicals, Evolution, and the BioLogos Disaster

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/GTY136/evangelicals-evolution-and-the-biologos-disaster

The BioLogos Conundrum

The BioLogos approach to the issue is now clear. They want to discredit evangelical objections to evolution and to convince the evangelical public that an acceptance of evolution is a means of furthering the gospel. They have leveled their guns at the Intelligent Design movement, at young earth creationism, and against virtually all resistance to the embrace of evolution.

http://www.albertmohler.com/2010/11...ogical-responsibility-the-biologos-conundrum/

tob

 

[Barbarian]

As I said, don't ask Fidel Castro to explain a free market to you. The site you went to, blatantly misrepresented what Biologos says about faith and science. Go to Biologos and learn about the way Christians see science. It could be a good thing for your soul. This is a recent article by Francis Collins (director of the Human Genome Project, now director at NIH):
It happened again this week. I received an e-mail from a student at a major university who is in the midst of a profound personal crisis...
She had been home-schooled by loving parents who were dedicated Christians, and who made sure that she learned the deep and profound principles of their faith. She made a personal commitment to that faith as a teenager, and her relationship with Christ was a central part of her life. She arrived at university fully aware that this secular environment might threaten her faith, but she quickly found other believers to share experiences with, and she learned to love the undergraduate experience.

That is, until she decided to major in biology. For the first time, she had the chance to see the scientific evidence for the actual age of the earth (4.55 billion years) and the theory of evolution. Like 45% of Americans, she had based her previous conclusions on an ultraliteral reading of Genesis promoted in many conservative churches - that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, and that all species of animals and plants came into being by individual acts of special creation by God. But with gathering alarm, she could see that a veritable mountain of data from physics, cosmology, chemistry, geology, paleontology, biology and genomics made that interpretation of Genesis no longer tenable. She tried to think of ways that the scientific evidence could have been misunderstood, or even (as she had heard from some Christian friends) that there was a widespread scientific conspiracy to promote these false ideas, but she could not see how to dismiss the massive weight of evidence...She is not alone. Over the last three years since my book The Language of God was published, I have heard from dozens of individuals experiencing this same crisis. I have tried to provide reassurance, based on my own path from atheism to belief, and my own experience as a physician, geneticist, and Christian, that science and faith are entirely compatible. We humans have the privilege of discerning the truth from both of God's books - the book of God's words (the scriptures) and the book of God's works (nature). But when the Bible is read as a scientific textbook, or when scientific findings are taken to prove or disprove certain spiritual conclusions, trouble ensues.

As you see, the exact opposite of what your site hoped to make you believe. If they'll lie to you about that, what won't they lie about?

 

[turnorburn]

I've seen your literature your site your doctrine and I've shown it to other believers "Christians" their response was, its another attempt by Satan to steal faith from new believers, and i noticed you even have a site for children, when you say creationists its as if you were referring to vermin that its faith that's confusing young minds, Jesus didn't think so. I pointed out how God made us in his image and likeness and you rejected that as well.. rather twisted it to suit your taste..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

I've seen your literature your site your doctrine and I've shown it to other believers "Christians" their response was, its another attempt by Satan to steal faith from new believers,

Christians are used to being accused of all sorts of things. You're accusations is nothing new.

and i noticed you even have a site for children,

I believe Biologos does. BTW, most creationists sites do.

when you say creationists its as if you were referring to vermin

I've repeatedly pointed out that many creationists are also Christians. How that translates for you, to "vermin", I'm willing to hear.

I pointed out how God made us in his image and likeness

But you rejected Jesus' words that made it clear the "image" was in our souls, not our bodies, which Jesus said God does not have.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
That all things are possible for God, is not license for us to make up new things that He "must have done." Notice the addition to scripture that creationists make by demanding that He made Adam with his hands (which Jesus says He doesn't have).

I notice also that when one points out those additions creationists make to scripture, there's a hasty retreat, and a denial, as shown above.

This was a "yes" or "no" question.

Edited by staff

Post (Elucidatory) Edit by Sparrow:
Greetings, Sparrow here.
"Perhaps", the muse in the bird states, "we may need an explanation here."
An example of a logical fallacy has been deleted (in my absence by a Staff Member in re: see the above comment, "Edited by staff"). An equivalent such retort might also have been, "Have you stopped peeing in the closet yet?? Well? Have ya? Huh?

For those interested, more may be found here: The logical fallacy of the "Loaded Question"

Disclaimer: Even though one of the examples used in the hyperlink provided may be construed to be "abusing or disabusing one's wife," it is the belief of this staff member and Assigned Mod of this forum that such construals may go too far. Therefor even in this day of "political correctness" no offense is intended to the closet I once peed in. Wait! Ahhh... hmmm... nevermind. Sometimes I just can't resist as I have a certain spirit of jocularity, or hope to have.

 

[turnorburn]

It takes faith to believe in God without faith it is impossible to please him, you've chosen science, proof, that's the entire nature of evolutionists, its the doctrine of atheists communists and humanists, what's more you can't mean me when you say Christian your church forbids it unless I'm catholic..so your reference must mean most catholics

tob