The Fall Of Man And The Full Ramifications Of It...

[Eugene]

There are several Hebrew and Greek words and explations for knowing. Spiritual knowing is probably top of list.
Psalms 103:7 (acts ways)

Maybe someone reading will help.

Knowing on one level is not knowing on every level. Knowing the Law written in stone is not knowing the Law written in hearts of flesh (God writing in hearts and minds).

eddif

That Psa 103:7 fits perfectly God’s perfect will for us. Another scripture I probably believe a bit different in, and that is that the law written in our hearts is not that which was written in the word, but the intent of it. When we weigh the Old Testament examples as pertinent to New Testament teaching it revealed the faith, grace, love, and sacrifice of our Savior Jesus in deed and spirit. Even the Sabbath is a promised rest to us when we enter in.

What pleasure could our Father have in the sacrifice of bulls? He couldn’t, but He could glory in the sacrifice of our lives in service to our brethren. Why? Because we are His ongoing work that have been perfected by His gift to us, our subjection to His will, and accepting all He wants to bestow upon us for eternity.

The fast of Isa 58:6-8 is just the beginning.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.

 

[eddif]

That Psa 103:7 fits perfectly God’s perfect will for us. Another scripture I probably believe a bit different in, and that is that the law written in our hearts is not that which was written in the word, but the intent of it. When we weigh the Old Testament examples as pertinent to New Testament teaching it revealed the faith, grace, love, and sacrifice of our Savior Jesus in deed and spirit. Even the Sabbath is a promised rest to us when we enter in.

What pleasure could our Father have in the sacrifice of bulls? He couldn’t, but He could glory in the sacrifice of our lives in service to our brethren. Why? Because we are His ongoing work that have been perfected by His gift to us, our subjection to His will, and accepting all He wants to bestow upon us for eternity.

The fast of Isa 58:6-8 is just the beginning.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.

IMHO this post of yours is looking at shadows (types and shadows ?). Could you tell me how I (eddif) see shadows? What is the solid object and what is the shadow (from scripture)..
And
Can you tell me what you see as the solid reality that casts the shadow. Which direction in time is the shadow cast.

Sometimes it is a mystery to us what others are saying. I am just trying to double check our understanding of each other. Of course I am probably pushing a point, but I hope it is with good intentions.

Here is a living modern saying I use from my life experience. (I should always check with NT & OT).
Knowledge. The alternator is not charging.
Wisdom. The internal regular has failed
Understanding. How to get the new regulator in without messing something else up
Love. How to not cuss and throw wrenches while doing the work

Or to this thread
Knowledge. See a doctrinal concept not working
Wisdom. Know the exact doctrine to be installed / corrected / repaired
Understanding. How to get the doctrine brought up without tearing up everything
Love. How to not fuss and throw our knowledge (knowledge just being a tool).
LOL. I may be the one with busted doctrine.

I am in the testing mode trying to see if the internal voltage regulator is faulty (thus the questions).

Reckon it will be ok?

eddif

 

[Edward]

H3045 (Known)
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot./(Strongs)

 

[eddif]

Jo

H3045 (Known)
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot./(Strongs)

Job 42:5
Job moved from hearing to seeing. A lot of Job 42 is about knowledge. When God spoke to Job he used examples.

So if yâda‛ is seeing; then I suppose it is a higher order knowledge

Matthew 9:6
that you may know... rise and walk
They heard on one level and believed when another level was presented. The trick is understanding which is ultimate solid reality.

eddif

 

[eddif]

For clarification ? This reads to me like you're saying we know what God is going to do next?

Amos 3:7
The only problem is: that supposed prophets speak out of their hearts, and have not heard God speaking.
Ezekiel 13:2

eddif

 

[Eugene]

IMHO this post of yours is looking at shadows (types and shadows ?). Could you tell me how I (eddif) see shadows? What is the solid object and what is the shadow (from scripture)..
And
Can you tell me what you see as the solid reality that casts the shadow. Which direction in time is the shadow cast.

Sometimes it is a mystery to us what others are saying. I am just trying to double check our understanding of each other. Of course I am probably pushing a point, but I hope it is with good intentions.

Here is a living modern saying I use from my life experience. (I should always check with NT & OT).
Knowledge. The alternator is not charging.
Wisdom. The internal regular has failed
Understanding. How to get the new regulator in without messing something else up
Love. How to not cuss and throw wrenches while doing the work

Or to this thread
Knowledge. See a doctrinal concept not working
Wisdom. Know the exact doctrine to be installed / corrected / repaired
Understanding. How to get the doctrine brought up without tearing up everything
Love. How to not fuss and throw our knowledge (knowledge just being a tool).
LOL. I may be the one with busted doctrine.

I am in the testing mode trying to see if the internal voltage regulator is faulty (thus the questions).

Reckon it will be ok?

eddif

Yeah Brother eddif, sometimes I mistakenly assume what others are saying from a very few words, and if you don’t believe in types that is fine. 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition.

Allow me to give an illustration considering the Sabbath. On the seventh day God rested from His work. Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Another type is that of Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:3 says Melchisedec was "made like unto the Son of God.” There we see the order of the priesthood different than that of the Aaronic priesthood.

There is the type of the bride of Christ Rebecca represented in Genesis Chapter Twenty-four. The Father sending His eldest servant to His own people to seek a bride for His son.

Some of my thoughts.

 

[Edward]

Jo

Job 42:5
Job moved from hearing to seeing. A lot of Job 42 is about knowledge. When God spoke to Job he used examples.

So if yâda‛ is seeing; then I suppose it is a higher order knowledge

Matthew 9:6
that you may know... rise and walk
They heard on one level and believed when another level was presented. The trick is understanding which is ultimate solid reality.

eddif

Apparently, seeing is more than only with the eyes, and hearing is more than only with the ears. It's understanding within the core of ones being. The trick indeed, is understanding that which is solid reality. This ties us in with the live for the Spirit scriptures, and the entire spiritual realm. I have a sneaking suspicion that the spiritual realm is more reality than our natural reality. (scientists even say that they can prove this, but that's for another thread.)

Hebrews 11:1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen./

So we believe in that which we do not see (with our eyes), and this is perhaps the kindergartner lesson of reality. (probably why we are to become as little children)

Hebrews 5:14 tells us (paraphrased) that in order to learn and mature, we must exercise our senses. This has to be talking about our spiritual senses...

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil./

So lay hold of the spiritual realm and exercise our perception of it. I think that many times, people pick up on spiritual things, and, in ignorance, p'shaw it off as intuition or imagination when in fact it is not. Learning to discern the difference is the key I think. Along with the safeguard of (the prayer) to not be deceived or to deceive oneself. (I pray for that a LOT!)

 

[Edward]

sometimes I mistakenly assume what others are saying from a very few words, and if you don’t believe in types that is fine. 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition.

I do believe in types and shadows. Long ago, I used to see the OT & NT as two different books, with the OT being basically a history book. Jesus came in the NT yada yada yada. But since I have learned of types and shadows...now when I read the OT, something previously unseen appears. I can almost see Jesus on every page of the OT.

It's one book and not two. The OT is very much so for us.

 

[Eugene]

I do believe in types and shadows. Long ago, I used to see the OT & NT as two different books, with the OT being basically a history book. Jesus came in the NT yada yada yada. But since I have learned of types and shadows...now when I read the OT, something previously unseen appears. I can almost see Jesus on every page of the OT.

It's one book and not two. The OT is very much so for us.

Amen and that is exactly what Israel were to see despite their religiousness.

 

[Edward]

Take the Bride of Christ as an example. From what I have read and been learning, that redemption and progression towards becoming the bride of Christ, is fashioned after the ancient Jewish wedding. Now, the ancient Jewish Bridal gown has four parts to it. So back in the Garden of Eden, when the Lord made a covering garment from the animal skin for them, it was very much more significant than being merely clothes for them. It was the type of Bridal gown, the innermost covering. God did not become angry at them, He simply made a move towards getting man back into relationship with Him, and this was necessary. Blood had to be shed for the covering, their sins covered, and we went from there. See? There's Jesus right there.

 

[eddif]

Colossians 2:16-17 and previous and following text.
Creation is but a shadow of things to come, but the body (solid reality -- spiritual / physical reality) is Christ.

If Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 then aspects of his suffering should be seen in pre- fall man's created body. Just like sabbaths and holy days are shadows IMHO stemming from the day of Christs death; in other words Jesus completed his work, and we enter into a sabbath rest based on his work now (at the time of creation sabbaths were created).

Man was created a little lower than God. I do not see the spiritual gifts generally used in the OT, except by prophets and called people. Adam and Eve seem to operate without spiritual discernment and rely on instruction (which they do not follow). Even after Pentecost there are still problems, but the sons and daughters prophesy. Intelligent yes. Spiritual gifts I would seem to doubt. Man's body is a symbol of the tabernacle God dwells.in, and not IMHO the new birth mind. Romans 7:25

Enough for now. Edward went into most of the questions I thought would take forever to get to.

I am really strange in one sense. Because Adam (man) ate of the tree of good and evil we have to discuss good and evil. If man had just eaten of the tree of life, we might just be discussing good. Thanks to the last trump, one day we will be changed in the flesh.

eddif

Back to post 14. Re- read before reading my present comments.
In one sense I am a lot about types and shadows.

The let us make man in our image, made the crucified Christ active at creation. So when the natural heart pacemaker was designed it had the form of a crucified man (wickepedia has a great conduction system of the heart). The desperately wicked and deceitful heart, required the crucificarion of Jesus. The reality was Jesus slain for our sins; the shadow was what our natural pacemaker looks like. They are one and the same, but one is the shadow.

Sabbath was created as a shadow of Christ's finished work, and not the reverse. Now I say that with all compassion, because it can get confusing. I am depending on Jewish NT authors.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Take the Bride of Christ as an example. From what I have read and been learning, that redemption and progression towards becoming the bride of Christ, is fashioned after the ancient Jewish wedding. Now, the ancient Jewish Bridal gown has four parts to it. So back in the Garden of Eden, when the Lord made a covering garment from the animal skin for them, it was very much more significant than being merely clothes for them. It was the type of Bridal gown, the innermost covering. God did not become angry at them, He simply made a move towards getting man back into relationship with Him, and this was necessary. Blood had to be shed for the covering, their sins covered, and we went from there. See? There's Jesus right there.

So it really sounds strange when I say Jewish weddings were a shadow of Jesus having been seeking a relationship with man, and the design was what God came up with as a shadow of that relationship. Christ is always the reality and the shadows can happen before the reality.

Have I said anything? Colossians 2:16-17

eddif

 

[follower]

I do believe in types and shadows. Long ago, I used to see the OT & NT as two different books, with the OT being basically a history book. Jesus came in the NT yada yada yada. But since I have learned of types and shadows...now when I read the OT, something previously unseen appears. I can almost see Jesus on every page of the OT.

It's one book and not two. The OT is very much so for us.

and somewhere, maybe yada chapter 3 verse yada yada ?
there was a list of the NAME YHWH in the SCRIPTURES, (ORIGINAL). over 1000 places. no more(not today's versions, since whenever).

 

[th1b.taylor]

The Lounge. Is that kinda like sittin on the porch and talking.

What is man like before the fall?
What are his potentials?
What are his experiences before the fall?
Has he received Holy Spirit or has Spirit breathed conscious life and physical breath into him.
Is there a part of his physical body that hints at what this tree of good and evil may be (?), and this is the loaded question).
Did man have the inner voice telling him no.

The disciples (now that is a leap in time) did not seem to get all they needed from hanging around with Jesus, but had to wait on power from on high. Did pre-fall man get all he needed from his created body, breath of the Spirit,and talks with God?

I am a record stuck in several grooves at times. I really do think our created body has hints to all this conversation, but I can just remain silent.

eddif

Eddif,
Early in Genesis, in the Creation Story through the Fall, we learn that in the cool of the Evening. god walked and conversed with Adam. Adam had the very presence of the Creator/Jesus walking with and advising him. And I am of the opinion that this was not only better than the Law but is also, much, better than the Indwelling of the Holy Spirt.

When we read the Gospel accounts of the presence of Jesus, on the Earth, the people with Him glory in His presence except they have sold out to Satan on some level. In John 3 we learn that even the Pharisees that, truly, seek after God are blessed in His presence. I concur with Edward in his stance that we lost so much with the fall of man.

 

[th1b.taylor]

and somewhere, maybe yada chapter 3 verse yada yada ?
there was a list of the NAME YHWH in the SCRIPTURES, (ORIGINAL). over 1000 places. no more(not today's versions, since whenever).

In the Major English translations YHWH, is still there but has been translated to read LORD. Not lord and not Lord but with all caps.

 

[eddif]

John 14:17
The external leading of Jesus was helped by Holy Spirit inside Him.

John 16:7
Jesus had to leave that Holy Spirit might be in us.

When I get into all this it is not about what I believe with my carnal mind. The crowd where I live is not on fire for Holy Spirit (there are spirits that are not Holy, and I understand that). There is the person Holy Spirit, and Father and Son are in agreement with him. The sun, moon and light are in glorious agreement. Things grow and flourish. Tares, work, etc detract from experiencing the fullness of the garden, but God is still working with us.

I read Ezekiel 2:1-2
I hear an instruction for standing and hearing
But
I also hear a prophet explain he sensed ruac enter him, place him on his feet and give him ears to hear.

I want to not depend on my thoughts. I want others to not depend on their thoughts.

eddif

 

[follower]

Read the op. Stopped. Going to read more later, God WIlling. Looks hopeful/ truthful/ beneficial.

This sparked me from another thread so I just copied my post to here and, let's toss this around a little here.

What we lost in the fall. What we gained in the fall (I say it like this because so many of you brothers and sisters insist that the 'knowledge of good and evil' is a good thing, and even post the let us reason together scriptures and so forth...

Interesting brother. When I think about the fall of man and where we stand, I prefer to think more about what we lost rather than what we gained (if that is even a correct way to say that?) What we gained (so to speak) is sickness, death, and a new (inferior) way of thinking (which is called the knowledge of good and evil, a phrase which I feel is misleading). Many people (even Christians) speak of having the knowledge of good and evil as a good thing, but I digress.

What we lost, is identity, personal relationship with God, hyper-dimensionality, and the Spirit mode of thinking (which is very probably a 'knowing'). We lost contact with our spirit man and with the spirit realm. I think that before the fall, we, as spiritual beings used to *think* with our heart, which did not require reason beyond as much as it took to make rudimentary decisions of will. We did not need the knowledge of good and evil, for we had the knowing of Love. (Think of how they teach bank tellers to spot counterfeit money. It's not by the showing and teaching of the bad money, but by the knowing of what the good money is/looks like and so forth).

Spirit beings *think* but do not reason. Think of quantum entanglement. Once two protons (Spirits) are entangled (in relationship with God?!) they can be separated and they both know what the other is doing/knows regardless of distance. If one were to desire to communicate an unknown to the other, there is not reason or talk, there is simple focused 'release' to the other. God does this to Christians all the time. We call it 'words of knowledge'

I have more to say on this, but I can feel the topic sway becoming too great for this thread so shall stop now...lol. This almost deserves a thread of it's own. there is so much left unsaid here.

 

[eddif]

Read the op. Stopped. Going to read more later, God WIlling. Looks hopeful/ truthful/ beneficial.

Amazingly Edward peeked into the site March 2 -2024 Edward had not posted in a long time.

Edward and I had different thoughts, but it was always friendly. You might try a personal message to him. He is not Luke warm about what he believes. I miss Edward.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[follower]

I want to not depend on my thoughts. I want others to not depend on their thoughts.

eddif

Yes As Scripture Says and is unchanged today :
Lean not on your own understanding....

=====. 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart. and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.