Bible Study The Fallacy of Free Will

[xicali]

Once Saved Always Saved [OSAS]… The “once†portion of these four words is nothing but biblical cliché. Why? Because the “once†implies that you had something to with it in time and space, in other words historically.

It is not free will you are exercising when you think you are accepting salvation. This is nothing but “works†on the part of the believer.

You came to this word saved, since the event on the cross took place 2000 years ago.
Salvation was and is current uninterrupted you where born with this gift already in effect. You either acknowledge it or let it go. Either way it’s there imbedded in the innermost part of your spirit.

What you did was to acknowledged that you where a lamb of God and not a wolf. You where born with a lamb’s ear that’s why you can hear His call. Once a Wolf Always a Wolf. The wolf will never have a lamb’s ear, in the same manner Once a Lamb Always a Lamb, you can never lose this position.

Free will in regards to salvation does not exist. Let me explain:



The Fallacy of Free Will

I. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE

a) Rom. 3:10-12 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.†We where foud by God.

b) Rom. 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil…†God created one of the twins for destruction.

c) Ephesians 1:4-5 “he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…â€Â

"...You know, for you were born then. You are very old...†God asks Job a series of questions that Job has no answer as a fleshy man than God goes to say... You know, for you were born then!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=47;


d) 2 Thes. 2:13 “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth†You came sanctified of the spirit that is why you believe the truth.


II. HISTORICAL FACT

a) John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you…â€Â

b) John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…â€Â

c) John 6:65 “no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him…â€Â

d) Acts 16:14 “A woman named Lydia…whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul


III. THE SCRIPTURE

a) Ezequiel 34:16 “I will seek that which was lost…â€Â

b) Isaiah 65:1 “I am found of them that sought me not…â€Â

c) Salm 65:4 “Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee…â€Â

d) Jeremiah 10:23 “…I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.



FINAL NOTES

A) Philippians 1:6 “he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.†(God takes the initiative, not man.)

b) Ephesians 1:11 “…we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will…†(Election is according to his will.)

c) Hebrews 8:11 “… they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest...†(No body will say know the Lord.)

d) Timothy 1:9 “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (His calling is according to his purpose.)

Jonah was instructed of God to go to Nineveh but Jonah exercising his free will decided to go to Tarnish.
“…I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land… And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

Arise, go uto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh…â€Â
Jonah 1:1-3

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
Ephesians 2:8

By the way...

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable,Permanent, final)
Rom.11:29

You are Blessed

xicali

 

[Heidi]

Once Saved Always Saved [OSAS]… The “once†portion of these four words is nothing but biblical cliché. Why? Because the “once†implies that you had something to with it in time and space, in other words historically.

It is not free will you are exercising when you think you are accepting salvation. This is nothing but “works†on the part of the believer.

You came to this word saved, since the event on the cross took place 2000 years ago.
Salvation was and is current uninterrupted you where born with this gift already in effect. You either acknowledge it or let it go. Either way it’s there imbedded in the innermost part of your spirit.

What you did was to acknowledged that you where a lamb of God and not a wolf. You where born with a lamb’s ear that’s why you can hear His call. Once a Wolf Always a Wolf. The wolf will never have a lamb’s ear, in the same manner Once a Lamb Always a Lamb, you can never lose this position.

Free will in regards to salvation does not exist. Let me explain:



The Fallacy of Free Will

I. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE

a) Rom. 3:10-12 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.†We where foud by God.

b) Rom. 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil…†God created one of the twins for destruction.

c) Ephesians 1:4-5 “he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…â€Â
Job 38:2-21 "...You know, for you were born then. You are very old...†God asks Job a series of questions that Job has no answer as a fleshy man than God goes to say... You know, for you were born then!

d) 2 Thes. 2:13 “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth†You came sanctified of the spirit that is why you believe the truth.


II. HISTORICAL FACT

a) John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you…â€Â

b) John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…â€Â

c) John 6:65 “no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him…â€Â

d) Acts 16:14 “A woman named Lydia…whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul


III. THE SCRIPTURE

a) Ezequiel 34:16 “I will seek that which was lost…â€Â

b) Isaiah 65:1 “I am found of them that sought me not…â€Â

c) Salm 65:4 “Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee…â€Â

d) Jeremiah 10:23 “…I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.



FINAL NOTES

A) Philippians 1:6 “he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.†(God takes the initiative, not man.)

b) Ephesians 1:11 “…we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will…†(Election is according to his will.)

c) Hebrews 8:11 “… they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest...†(No body will say know the Lord.)

d) Timothy 1:9 “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (His calling is according to his purpose.)

Jonah was instructed of God to go to Nineveh but Jonah exercising his free will decided to go to Tarnish.
“…I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land… And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh…â€Â
Jonah 1:1-3

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
Ephesians 2:8

By the way...

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable,Permanent, final)
Rom.11:29

You are Blessed

xicali

So why did Paul say; "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned"? :o

Sorry, friend, but your notion that we were all born with the Holy Spirit contradicts the bible. As Jesus says, only those whom his Father has given him will receive the Holy Spirit. Please read John chapter 17 when Jesus says that he is not praying for the world but only those His Father has given him. Also read John 14: 15-21 to see that the world will not receive the Holy Spirit, only those chosen by God. So the bible makes it perfectly clear that not everyone will receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[xicali]

Heidi...

I agree with you. Our Lord didn't die for everybody. He died for many that is his church, a people that he had prepared for His glory in other words His flock.



You are Blessed :smt041

xicali

 

[D46]

Heidi...

I agree with you. Our Lord didn't die for everybody. He died for many that is his church, a people that he had prepared for His glory in other words His flock.



You are Blessed :smt041

xicali

I'd love to see some Scripture to back up this fallacy! Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour died for all...that's me, you, everyone on this board, Hitler, the Boston Strangler, everyone!! Not just a select few. Whether all except him is another case as obviously, all did not and will not. Nevertheless, he died for all of mankind. Read the Gospels.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[JM]

If Christ died for all then all are saved.

The intent and accomplished act:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. [intent]

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. [Even on the practical level, if God has the power to accomphish a tack, it wouldn’t make sense for God to not follow thru.]

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us [intent], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal 1:3, 4 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners [intent]; of whom I am chief.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us [intent], that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people [intent], zealous of good works.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God [intent], being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[intent]

Results of the Atonement:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled [result], we shall be saved by his life.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ [result], and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Eph 2:15, 16 Having abolished in his flesh [result of the atonement] the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:[result]

Col 1:21, 22 And you, that were [past tense] sometime alienated and enemies [we were enemies of God] in your mind by wicked works, YET NOW hath he reconciled. [result] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [result of the atonement]

What Christ secured with the atonement:

Rom 3:24, 25 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [results of the atonement is security, without works we are saved by Grace] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [results]

Rom 5:8, 9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, [security] we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us [past tense, we are secure because of the atonement] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Col 1:13, 14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: [the atonement secures our redemption]

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, HAVING OBTAINED [past tense] eternal redemption for us.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree [past tense, it’s been done, the atonement secured our salvation], that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Quote: “Passages which represent the Lord Jesus Christ, in all that He did and suffered for His people, as fulfilling the terms of a gracious compact or arrangement which He had entered into with His heavenly Father before the foundation of the world.â€Â

Jesus sent on a mission: Joh 6:35-40 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We see what the death of Christ actually did, now who was the death of our Lord for…for His sheep. Not every sheep, for His sheep:

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:14-18 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Joh 10:24-29 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, [plain indictment] because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [Christ gives us the reason they do not believe, because they are not His] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Christ the High Priest:

Joh 17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. [the atonement has been done and is now being applied to the elect of God] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. [if Christ is praying for only those the Father gives Him, the work of the atonement has to be completed. if God the Father doesn’t hear the prayer of God the Son, then we have dissention in the Godhead] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

All of a believers spiritual blessings can be traced back to the eternal decree of God:

Eph 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world [any way you want to slice it, God chose some in Christ but not all], that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [and this is how God did His choosing and way] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: [God purpose, not ours] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [all things, that means the good, the bad and the ugly] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

+++The Arminian likes to quote passages with the words world, all men and nations. But other passages speak of Christ’s work as definite, meaning there was intent to same a particular people.

Many, not ALL:

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall [as a fact] save his people from their sins. [Christ’s death did just that]

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. [not all]

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. [this passage shows the New Covenant was made with a people, and that people now have remission of sins based upon the work of the Cross/shed blood]

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [the blood of Christ was shed, it’s a done deal, it’s not universal]

Eph 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it [Christ died to purchase the Church, not the world]; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Rom 8:32-34 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all [who’s the all Paul is speaking of….look down a few verses], how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 2:17 “sins of His people†[not all people]
Hebrews 3:1 “who share in a heavenly callingâ€Â

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [just read it]

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many [not all but many]; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christ’s death bought a people, not every single person in the world. Salvation isn’t universal, that wouldn’t make sense to have a universal atonement and not plan to offer it to everyone.


JM

 

[xicali]

JM...

Your posting is so clear and informative. I see it but many more wont.
Good work I will use your posting for teaching others.


You are Blessed


xicali

 

[D46]

If Christ died for all then all are saved.

That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. I don't expect anything different from a Calvanist, though. Christ died for everyone of us but, you obviously believe in Limited Atonment but, I'm not a TULIP believer. If Christ merely died for a select few then he suffered a terrible death in vain. We only have to accept his substitutionary death for us and his grace through faith and in his atoning death on the cross as payment for our sins to attain life everlasting. Not all will accept this unmerited grace Christ offers as the Scriptures says...

Mt 22:14 (KJV) For many are called, but few are chosen. God wants us all to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth of his love for his children and the purpose of why he went to the cross. It was NOT for a select few.

Romans 6:22-23 (KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Was this just for those who were in Rome? NO! You are twisting scripture to validate your cult like JW's do.

1Timothy 1:15 (KJV) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He doesn't say a select bunch or any such nonesense. Jesus died for all of us but, whether we accept that or not is another matter. The atonement is there and salvation is available to those who will. Any belief contrary to the Gospel is heresy, regardless of it's title.

Acts 10:34-35 (KJV) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. [not all]

Twisting words again. Does he have to say ALL for you to believe?

John 10:16 (KJV) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 (KJV) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

He died for everyone...period. Whether we accept God's grace is up to us.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi...

I agree with you. Our Lord didn't die for everybody. He died for many that is his church, a people that he had prepared for His glory in other words His flock.



You are Blessed :smt041

xicali

Thank you. What a kind thing to say.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi...

I agree with you. Our Lord didn't die for everybody. He died for many that is his church, a people that he had prepared for His glory in other words His flock.



You are Blessed :smt041

xicali

I'd love to see some Scripture to back up this fallacy! Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour died for all...that's me, you, everyone on this board, Hitler, the Boston Strangler, everyone!! Not just a select few. Whether all except him is another case as obviously, all did not and will not. Nevertheless, he died for all of mankind. Read the Gospels.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Romans 9:11-13, "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's election might stand: not by works, but by him who calls-she was told, 'the older will serve the younger..' Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

Jesus also says he was a ransom for many. So you put the two together and you come yp with "Many are invited but few are chosen."

Jesus also tells Peter in John 20: 23, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

John 8:24, "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins."

So the bible makes it quite clear that only those who accept Christ's death on the cross will be forgiven. The gift does one no good unless it is received by the recipient.

 

[D46]

Few will be chosen indeed, as many will reject Him and have been doing so for 2000 years.

Matthew10:32-33 (KJV) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[D46]

Those who promote this erroneous doctrine of Calvinism try to tell us that "world" does not really mean "world"' and "all" does not really mean "all" and "every man" does not really mean "every man" and "the whole world" does not really mean "the whole world." We are told that simple verses such as John 3:16 and Isaiah 53:6 must be understood not as a child would understand them but as a theologian would understand them. That is, we must re-interpret such verses in light of our system of theology.

The Calvinist would say that the cross was designed only for the elect and had no purpose for the "non-elect" (persistent unbelievers). But the death of God's Son had a divine purpose and design for both groups. For the elect, God's design was salvation according to His purpose and grace in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:13). For unbelievers, God's purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are CONDEMNED because they have rejected the Person and WORK of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40). Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Saviour of all men (1 Timothy 4:10). They are without excuse.

 

[Geo]

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.
And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Hallelujah !

Those who promote this erroneous doctrine of Calvinism try to tell us
that "world" does not really mean "world"' and "all" does not really mean
"all" and "every man" does not really mean "every man" and "the whole world"
does not really mean "the whole world." We are told that simple verses such
as John 3:16 and Isaiah 53:6 must be understood not as a child would
understand them but as a theologian would understand them. That is,
we must re-interpret such verses in light of our system of theology.

Yup. Unfortunately, it's a trap and many walk right into it.

Yet, They Repented Not.

... the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died
for them and who is the Saviour of all men (1 Timothy 4:10). They are without excuse.

Yes, THEY are personally responsible for THEIR decision,

while Satan tells them they won't be able to change their mind,
because they don't have the will to do it.

Get behind me Satan.

 

[xicali]

D-46 Did you know?...




THREE WORLDS

How many worlds does the Bible talk about? Did God reconcile all of the worlds? Did God only saved the world of His Elected?

I. The Terrestrial World

Luke 2:1 “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed...†[This is the conquered world of the Romans and not the Planet]

a) Romans 5:12 “…as by one man sin entered into the world…â€Â
b) 1 Corinthians 4:9 “…for we are made a spectacle unto the world…â€Â
c) Acts 17:24 “…God that made the world and all things therein…â€Â
d) Psalm 50:12 “…the world is mine, and the fulness thereof...â€Â


II. The World of the Sons of Disobedience


a) Ephesians 2:2 “… in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience…â€Â

b) 1 Corinthians 1:21 “…The world by wisdom knew not God…â€Â

c) John 14:17 “…the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive…â€Â

d) Psalm 58:3 “…The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies …â€Â

e) John 1:11 “…He came unto his own, and his own received him not…â€Â



III. The World of The Sons of God


a) 2 Corinthians 5:19 “…God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself…â€Â

b) Galatians 6:14 “…by whom the world is crucified unto me…â€Â

c) Isaiah 46:3 “…which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb…â€Â

d) John 17:21 “…that the world may believe that thou hast sent me…â€Â



Final Notes:

a) 1 Corinthians 1:18 “…For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God…â€Â

b) 2 Corinthians 5:19 “…To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the [His] world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation…â€Â

c) Hebrews 10:14 “…For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified...â€Â

d) Ephesians 1:3-5 “â¦God has Blessed, Chosen and Predstined His World...â€Â



CLOSING THOUGHT:

John 17:21 “…that the world may believe that thou hast sent me…â€Â
John 14:17 “…the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive…â€Â
[One world that believes …one world that doesn’t believe]

Acts 13:48 “…as many as were ordained to eternal life believed...â€Â


You Are Blessed

xicali

 

[Free]

:o You Mormon? Your post isn't totally Mormon, but has obvious hints of it.

 

[xicali]

:o You Mormon? Your post isn't totally Mormon, but has obvious hints of it.

Are you refering to me? If you are please don't use these types of remarks. My post is not intended for redicule.

I take My Position in Christ very serious. I'm not a mormon nor sympatise
with their doctrine.

I understand that is just a question on your part but have some tact for tact is a virtue. :


You Are Blessed

xicali

 

[protos]

What you refer to as a fallacy of free will isn't so. When the Bible says that it is not the doing of the man but that of the Holy Spirit, it means that without God's Special Revelation, man would be too inert to do righteousness.

You just have to look at the records of ancient people and what they did. There are stone tablets depicting people in ancient Egypt having sex and their children literally helping them or something. The Roman Empire had records which were purposely omitted by the Victorian translators, since the records showed many disgusting things the people and emperors did. For example the sexual preference of the emperor Tiberius was neither men nor women, but babies. Newborn ones too, and guess what he put in their mouths until their teeth grew. In fact Augustus is the only one who was strictly heterosexual. The Aztecs would bash newborn babies against caves in the east so the sun would rise. They would also kill people, sometimes 10,000 at a time where the pyramid would have blood coming from the top. They took the heart out of people and offered it to their bullshit gods. Even today there are still some of these things going on. For one example there's a game where people kick each other in the groin for fun, but that's nowhere nearly as disgusting as the things those people did.

Jesus died for all people, and all people are his flock. Even those who are to go to Hell are his flock, but they were never found.

 

[JM]

If Christ died for all then all are saved.

That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. I don't expect anything different from a Calvanist, though. Christ died for everyone of us but, you obviously believe in Limited Atonment but, I'm not a TULIP believer. If Christ merely died for a select few then he suffered a terrible death in vain. We only have to accept his substitutionary death for us and his grace through faith and in his atoning death on the cross as payment for our sins to attain life everlasting. Not all will accept this unmerited grace Christ offers as the Scriptures says...

He died for everyone...period. Whether we accept God's grace is up to us.

D, you're adding to the work of the cross. You're saying it's Christ's death PLUS my belief. If Christ's death was substitutionary, then Christ's death removes God's wrath from the sinner, He died in place of the sinner.

 

[JM]

Few will be chosen indeed, as many will reject Him and have been doing so for 2000 years.

Matthew10:32-33 (KJV) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Your "whosoever" quotes have a big problem, you're assuming ability, but Scriptures does not.

Here's more Scripture to ignore...

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." WCF and the London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

Gen. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The penalty for disobedience of God’s command was death.

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Adam’s disobedience brought in the fail of mankind.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death [death of the body] by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened[made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened[made alive] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

+++The word dead is nekros and is defined by Strong’s as, "one that has breathed his last, lifeless." The Augustinian and Federal view understands sin to be imputed to human kind because of Adam’s sin, resulting in the spiritual bankruptcy of all people. This idea finds expressed by David in the following passges.

Psalm 51:5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Pslam 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

We are born in sin, it’s for this reason our Lord Jesus Christ tells us we need to be born again to enter God’s kingdom. Also note, Christ’s words in John 3:3, "he cannot see." This is in direct relation to the kingdom of God, one must be born again to even see the offer.

John 3: 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

+++Ask yourself, can the carnal fleshy man bring about spiritual change? Not according to Christ’s words, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Amen.

The heart of fallen man as a result of the fall:

Gen. 6:5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen. 8:21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecc. 9:3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer. 17: 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mark 7:21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

John 3: 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [This point is important for those who believe man desires to be saved, they don’t. Men are slaves to sin and love to sin, they harden their hearts to the Gospel offer for the reason stated above.]

Rom. 8: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: [The fallen mind of man is hostile toward God.] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [The fallen man cannot discern spiritual things, as was pointed out above.]

Eph. 4: 17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [And what is the reason for their blindness? Vanity of their mind, the understanding was darkened.] 19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph. 5: 8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Titus 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Before God enables fallen man to respond, we belong to the Devil:

John 8:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John 8: 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom. 6: 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Eph. 2: 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2 Tim. 2: 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 3: 3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

1 John 3: 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5: 19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

All are sinners:

2 Chronicles 6: 36If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

1 Kings 8: 46If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Job 15: 14What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. 16How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
Psalm 130: 3If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psalm 143: 2And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Proverbs 20: 9Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecclesiastes 7: 20For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isaiah 64:5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Isaiah 53: 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Romans 3: 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

James 3: 2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. 3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. 4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. 5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

1 John 1: 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If man is left dead in sin, they are unable to repent:

Job 14: 4Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. [and that is essentially what the Arminian claims to do.]
Jeremiah 13: 23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. [The evil cannot change.]

Matthew 7: 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12: 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

John 6: 44 [This is a classic passge.] NO man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [Those and only those who are called will be raised up. This passage is also teahing that being raised up is a fact. If all are called, then all are raised up. Man’s inability to choice the good, the spiritual is because of their nature. God the Father must call them.]

John 6: 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [Notice, ‘except.’ This is in reference to man’s inability.]

Our sufficiency is from God:

1 Cor. 2: 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God [which is why these topics are to be discussed with brethren and not the world.]: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor. 4: 7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

2 Cor. 3: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Faith and repentance are gifts from God:

Acts 5: 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13: 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life BELIEVED. [They believed because God granted them belief.]

Acts 16: 14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, [God did it, not Lydia.] that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Acts 18: 27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Ephesians 2 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. [Dictionary.com defines work as, "Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something." Work is something you do, if that’s true, then believing in the Gospel is an activity to accomplish your salvation.]

Philippians 1: 29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, [It was given to them to believe.] but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Timothy 2: 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

______________________________________________________________

As you can see, God doesn't think so highly of fallen man, and in closing read the words of Romans:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless,

JM

 

[Drew]

+++The Arminian likes to quote passages with the words world, all men and nations. But other passages speak of Christ’s work as definite, meaning there was intent to same a particular people.

Many, not ALL:

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall [as a fact] save his people from their sins. [Christ’s death did just that]

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. [not all]

The Calvinist cannot claim to be immune from the very behaviour he criticizes. It is indeed true that Arminians appeal to verses that refer to all men, etc. How do many Calvinists respond? By effectively claiming that such verses do not really mean "all" - and they use verses such as the above.

However, just as the Arminian is accused of not subjecting the "God wants all to be saved" verses to the constraints of verses whose "plain reading" suggests an elect, the Calvinist does the same thing: He takes verses like the above at their face value and re-interprets the "God wants all to be saved" verses as being necessarily subject to the constraints of verses that are suggestive of an elect.

This kind of reasoning is circular as the following analogy shows:

Statement 1: All the people wear yellow shirts
Statement 2: Many people wear yellow shirts.

"Calvinist": Since statement 2 tells us that many (many means "not all") wear yellow shirts, then Statement 1 cannot truly mean that all the people really wear yellow shirts.

"Arminian": Since statement 1 tells us that all (meaning truly all) wear yellow shirts, then Statement 2 cannot truly mean that only many people wear yellow shirts.

It can be seen that both are effectively using circular logic (or a close cousin of it).

In fact, I would argue that the "Arminian" is on more solid ground here: it is harder to re-work "all" to mean "many", than it is to re-work "many" to mean "all" - and that may be the subject of another post.

For example, a perfectly legitimate interpretation of Matt 20:28 involves the assertion that the "many" are in fact the many who choose freely to accept Christ. Think I am "adding" to the plain meaning of this verse? By their own words, many Calvinists do the exact same thing - they "add" information from other verses in order to re-interpret the "God wants all to be saved" verses.

 

[Dave...]

Drew, why don't you and Protos be the first Arminians in the history of mankind to actually answer the scripture posted by Calvinists and give us your understanding of it? This would be a true miracle. Why do you avoid this scripture? I know, but do you?

It's never happened before. What a great way to make a case for yourself. :D

Please don't take this as an out to avoid my challenge to you. I still expect someone to actually deal with some of the scripture posted before they can ever be taken seriously. But...

Luke 2:1-3 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.

Was all the world registered? Even those little villages in Africa? Even the American Indians?

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The "whole world", what ever could that mean? John 11:51-52 says the same thing but with more clarity.

John 11:51-52 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, And not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

See explination here. http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2005 ... world.html

If you would put down your X+Y= stuff, and actually go to scripture to define scripture, you will see that many times God's Word will give you the answers.

Dave