The Fallacy of Freewill

[Stan53]

Stan
In almost all of my posts where I list the various things that happened to Paul I didn't use "colourful phrases " (for lack of a better term). I noted he was blinded, knocked to the ground (someone correctly pointed out the Bible says he fell -- not necessarily knocked to...-- was terrified, and was being scolded by Jesus and given only one option by Jesus.

That indeed is accurate. Of course it wasn't a literal beat down.I simply was being lazy and not re-listing all the events and shortened it to "beat down ". Figured everyone already understood what I was saying. So sorry I gave you the wrong impression.

Yes Slider, they were colourful, but misleading. I was the one that pointed out that Paul fell down, as did all the people travelling with him. We are not told if they converted with Paul or not. You assert he was terrified, but that does NOT show in the three accounts of this conversion. You assume being scolded when that is not in evidence. Yes, it was one option from Jesus, which he OBEYED. His recount in Acts 26 shows his willingness.

Well we do live by our words Slider, so saying beat down was not the best choice of words, and did not properly reflect the scenario be depicted the three times in Acts. As Acts 26:14 shows, this was not the first time God had poked or goaded Paul's spirit. It would appear that this time, God's goad was so noticeable, that Paul could no longer ignore it. He had used his freewill previously to ignore the goading of God, and this time he used it to listen and accept Him. His freewill was not suspended, it was reinforced to finally accept God's call on his life and therefore he obeyed, of his own volition.

 

[former atheist]

Here's the catch, guys. You are all presuming that a man CAN make a choice for the good of his own salvation without the divine intervention of the Creator! That is not something that can be done!

I think what people get confused about in this debate upon Free Will is again, how we define Free Will and what that Free Will means under a sovereign God. We will never have Free Will exactly like God has because we are powerless in many areas to make our Will reality. Yet, similarly to God in likeness, we are created with the freedom of choice, as choice pertains to the limitations of our power to act upon our Will. With God, God can act upon every aspect of his Will because His power is without limitations. With Man, we can act upon our Will as it pertains to our own power to do so gifted and granted by God.


Often, it boils down to a simple ability to Obey God or to disobey God. Therefore I agree that we cannot achieve salvation by only our own Will, but by obedience to Gods Will for us. This however doesn’t mean we do not have Free Will as again we have the ability, capacity and are granted by God, the freedom to choose to obey or disobey Gods provision in this area. Just as Adam and Eve were able to disobey God in Eden!

I am absolutely convinced, that if a man or woman believes in the freewill of man, they do not believe in the Sovereignty of God ! Its impossible ! I do not care how they attempt to spin that they do !

I believe in the Free Will of man as ordained by God, when God stated that Man was to be created in Gods own image. The Free Will of man does not in any way subvert the Sovereignty of God because the Free Will of man is judged by God; by Gods Will, by Gods Justice, by Gods holiness, shall be the judgment of God unto mankind.


You perhaps mistakenly presume that I might believe that Mankind’s Free Will is limitless or without consequence, when in fact I know full well that what I do with my Freedom is answerable to Gods Judgment and limited to my power to act upon my Free will. That being true, Gods sovereignty is certainly not in question.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thats only in your thinking. If you believe that man has a freewill you do not believe in the True God of scripture !

No, it's the consequence of the false idea that man does not have free will, a consequence you did not resolve.

 

[savedbygrace57]

No, it's the consequence of the false idea that man does not have free will, a consequence you did not resolve.

It goes for you also, if you believe man has a freewill, you do not believe in the God of scripture, but the one of your own understanding !

 

[Pard]

I think what people get confused about in this debate upon Free Will is again, how we define Free Will and what that Free Will means under a sovereign God. We will never have Free Will exactly like God has because we are powerless in many areas to make our Will reality. Yet, similarly to God in likeness, we are created with the freedom of choice, as choice pertains to the limitations of our power to act upon our Will. With God, God can act upon every aspect of his Will because His power is without limitations. With Man, we can act upon our Will as it pertains to our own power to do so gifted and granted by God.


Often, it boils down to a simple ability to Obey God or to disobey God. Therefore I agree that we cannot achieve salvation by only our own Will, but by obedience to Gods Will for us. This however doesn’t mean we do not have Free Will as again we have the ability, capacity and are granted by God, the freedom to choose to obey or disobey Gods provision in this area. Just as Adam and Eve were able to disobey God in Eden!

In that we agree, but we (apparently?) differ in this:

A depraved man (one without Christ) has the free will to choose but he will ALWAYS decide for damnation.

The mended man (one with Christ) has the free will to choose to obey or disobey God's word. We can stray down the wrong path, this is clear, but we have the mended heart that is required to choose salvation.

My earnest belief is that man cannot choose salvation without the Lord first choosing man.

The problem arises, especially in testimonial areas, when a person says they made the decision for God, but they never noticed that God first made a decision for them. We hear the Word, it is sown, and then God tills the soil, taking away the rocks and the thorns and loosening the dirt, and this allows our hearts to actually accept Christ. God has to make that change of heart in you, and then the Word can grow in you.

People say they made the decision for God, but that decision was only ever made after God changed their hearts to allow that decision to be made. The total and utter depravity of man prevents anyone from coming to Christ, and I mean truly coming with faith and with the right heart. I thought I came to Christ once, but I didn't. I was in it for selfish motives. I wanted the prosperity, if not in this world than in the next. I didn't want to die. And then God changed my heart, he allowed me to accept Him. I didn't like that idea, though, I mean really accepting Him, giving up my sins, the things I loved so very much! And then one day I understood, glory. It's all God's glory. And praise the Lord when I realized this I stopped running away from Him, I let Him take me by the hand.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It goes for you also, if you believe man has a freewill, you do not believe in the God of scripture, but the one of your own understanding !

What verse(s) say unbelief in free will is the same as not believing in God?

I know this is what YOU think, but where does the bible say such?

You still have not resolved your problem.

 

[former atheist]

Pard: My earnest belief is that man cannot choose salvation without the Lord first choosing man.

I thought we both agreed on this belief above? I believe Man is powerless to choose salvation if salvation is not first offered to Man by God. Without Gods offer of Salvation, man cannot choose it.

Where I believe we differ in opinion is, that once God offers Salvation, you would have me believe that even then, man cannot choose a path for Salvation, but rather, God must make that Choice for a person on an individual basis by physical, spiritual intervention. Is this so?

 

[savedbygrace57]

johno

What verse(s) say unbelief in free will is the same as not believing in
God?

Who said that ?

 

[former atheist]

It goes for you also, if you believe man has a freewill, you do not believe in the God of scripture, but the one of your own understanding !

Just who are you to determine or judge someone’s belief or un-belief? And to do so without the backing of Scripture! What you have done by your words is instigated an inappropriate argument for your brother/sister; placing a stumbling block before them. No work of the Holy Spirit is done by accusing someone of un-belief in God simply because they do not agree with a point of debate in regards to a scriptural truth.

We could easily accuse you of the very same, that you believe in a scripture of your very own understanding. However, I will refrain and simply ask you to think about what you say! Will it really help anyone in this conversation to understand your opinion better if you lash out at them saying they simply don’t believe? I don’t think it will.

 

[savedbygrace57]

former

Just who are you to determine or judge someone’s
belief or un-belief?

A Christian following Christ's directive Jn 7:24

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Also 1 Jn 4:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T Bass asked: What verse(s) say unbelief in free will is the same as not believing in God?


savedbygrace57 asked: Who said that ?

You said in a prior post ".. if you believe man has a freewill, you do not believe in the God of scripture,..."

Can you not remember what you have posted?

Now what bible verse says if you believe man has a freewill, you do not believe in the God of scripture,..."?

 

[former atheist]

former

A Christian following Christ's directive Jn 7:24

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

You believe or think your judgment was a righteous judgment? How so? You stated that: “If you believe man has Free Will, you do not believe in God of the Scriptures.†What is righteous about your statement? Would you please explain?


Also, I see your love to quote scripture. I know that it is easy to use Google to search for segments of scripture that you can use to argue just about anything. Atheists do it all of the time as they twist and pervert Gods Word, in an attempt to try and deceive others and even themselves too believing God said something, that God in fact never said.


There is a distinct difference in bringing up scripture with understanding when trying to convey or support ones beliefs or actions. However, it is an entirely different thing to simply copy and paste scripture to convey one’s own meaning or to support one’s own agenda. I’m not saying that, that is what you are in fact doing. However, I am saying that a person might mistake you to having done such when you do not so much as respond with your own words in alignment of the scriptures of which you just quoted.

Also 1 Jn 4:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

All that I observed that you did was make a baseless accusation. You didn’t try the spirits to see whether they are of God, as the scripture indicates for you to do. No, you simply accused an entire church, an entire limb of the Body of Christ, of not even following the same gospel. A rather serious accusation to carelessly put forth, isn’t it? And I say careless because you seem to have forgotten that you even said it….



Anyway, I think I’ll avoid any further discussion with you for the time being based on what I’ve seen so far in your replies. There are scriptural reasons for me to do so, and I’ve found the more obedient to God, the better.


Forgive me please if that offends you! I simply wish to make it clear that nothing is to be gained by either of us, if even one of us is going to make accusations without seriously backing up such assertions.

I wish to continue my conversation here with Pard in peace and I wish you peace as well.

 

[Cassian]

Greetings Pard,

I'm a johnny come lately to this thread. In reading your op and then scanning most of the thread, though not necessarily reading the whole thing I would like to make some observations.

Based on the sentences in the above quote, you are using free will far differently than I have ever understood it. It begins with the last sentence which is not the definition of "free will". At least what I learned, that you are describing the type of will that God has which is an autonomous will.

Free will is exactly the opposite because it is based on the fact that we were created with a rational soul. Meaning that we are able to make distinctions, resolutions, decisions based on choices that are outside of ourselves. We are incapable of making the choices available.

For example, you mentioned food. We did not create the food, it was not our will that made the choice available, we just need to choose any or some to eat. Same with more abstract choices, as contracts, rational decisions of if I am going to get a hair cut or buy ice cream instead.

IN your opening op you seem to be setting up a dichotmy or contradiction. Man has free will in the food examples and others like it, but not for salvation. We either have a rational soul or we do not. There is not possible way to be bi-willed or whatever word could describe our makeup.

Using the meaning that I have described, love to others, or to God is only possible if man has free will. That is why God created us as rational souls. Free will does not need additional help from God, when it is one the basics of our nature. God created us as rational souls, so that we could make choices, and thus be held accountable for those choices.

If we are merely pawns, if God chooses us or makes us do His will, then man is but an object, a tool, that has no responsibility. We are more like a gun in the hands of a human being. That person can use it for good, but also for evil but the responsible or agent of the action is the person, not the gun.

Consequently, if we are a tool, then there is no need to speak of a judgment. For what would we be judged?

It also seems to me that if Adam was given a command and would be held accountable for the decisions of that command, it surely had a consequence in his salvation, why not ours, since we are the same human being.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Cassian]

Greetings Pard,


Greetings Pard,

Free will takes away from God's love. Freewill supposes that a man can, without the help of God, make the active choice, while still in the flesh, to say no to what the flesh wants and to then deny the flesh, and pick God.

Now, don't get me wrong, we humans have freewill.

Freewill means to have a series of choices and to pick only one of them without any intercession or outside influence.

I'm a johnny come lately to this thread. In reading your op and then scanning most of the thread, though not necessarily reading the whole thing I would like to make some observations.

Based on the sentences in the above quote, you are using free will far differently than I have ever understood it. It begins with the last sentence which is not the definition of "free will". At least what I learned, that you are describing the type of will that God has which is an autonomous will.

Free will is exactly the opposite because it is based on the fact that we were created with a rational soul. Meaning that we are able to make distinctions, resolutions, decisions based on choices that are outside of ourselves. We are incapable of making the choices available.

For example, you mentioned food. We did not create the food, it was not our will that made the choice available, we just need to choose any or some to eat. Same with more abstract choices, as contracts, rational decisions of if I am going to get a hair cut or buy ice cream instead.

IN your opening op you seem to be setting up a dichotmy or contradiction. Man has free will in the food examples and others like it, but not for salvation. We either have a rational soul or we do not. There is not possible way to be bi-willed or whatever word could describe our makeup.

Using the meaning that I have described, love to others, or to God is only possible if man has free will. That is why God created us as rational souls. Free will does not need additional help from God, when it is one the basics of our nature. God created us as rational souls, so that we could make choices, and thus be held accountable for those choices.

If we are merely pawns, if God chooses us or makes us do His will, then man is but an object, a tool, that has no responsibility. We are more like a gun in the hands of a human being. That person can use it for good, but also for evil but the responsible or agent of the action is the person, not the gun.

Consequently, if we are a tool, then there is no need to speak of a judgment. For what would we be judged?

It also seems to me that if Adam was given a command and would be held accountable for the decisions of that command, it surely had a consequence in his salvation, why not ours, since we are the same human being.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Cassian]

Freewill. It is the key point of many a person's understanding of both their own salvation and of God. I once thought freewill was the greatest thing in the entire world, and then I finally met God, and I understood that freewill is a really good lie that a lot of Christians believe because it enables them to, well I don't know actually, I have my ideas but I don't wish to presume upon people's reasoning, so i will stop my train of thought on that little matter right now!

What I can say is this, freewill takes from God. Freewill diminished God's story, which, by the way, is the Bible. Freewill takes away from God's love. Freewill supposes that a man can, without the help of God, make the active choice, while still in the flesh, to say no to what the flesh wants and to then deny the flesh, and pick God. But that's not how it works!!! It doesn't work that way at all! God doesn't let you decide for Him, because if He did that then He'd NEVER get anyone at all into Heaven.

Now, don't get me wrong, we humans have freewill. We really do. I can make the choice, without the intercession of the divine, to, say, paint my room red instead of blue. I can make the decision, without God's intervening, to buy an Xbox instead of a Playstation. I can, without any heavenly insight, choose to drive down to the cornerstore and purchase a big old stack of Playboys. I can, without divine intervention, pick someone at random and kill them. I can do a lot of really unimportant, sinful, and evil things without the help of the divine. That's freewill. Freewill always picks the pleasureful because we are sinful, we are fleshly, we are worldly.

To do anything that isn't neutral or negative towards the matter of salvation, that is to do anything positive towards your salvation, takes an act of God! It takes a miracle. It is literally God changing the invisible laws that bind this universe when a human being goes to Christ. It is God changing their heart. It is God, and not humans. It isn't God extending out His hand and a human looking up, seeing it, and then reaching for it. It is God reaching down from heaven and picking you up by the collar and yanking you up to be with Him.

Some people will call it rape, they say that for God to decide for you is raping your mind, depriving you of the intellectual ability to make the active and willing choice that you are rightfully entitled to as a human.

That's just wrong. Sometimes analogies are just wrong. I don't care if it flows really well, not all analogies work. They work really well when God picks them, but when a human gives the whole analogy thing a try it is like a crap-shot.

Well, to that person I'd have to say that they should go read Romans 9:20,21 because this literally speaks directly to your argument. It says "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION GOD?! WHO ARE YOU, THE POT, TO QUESTION THE POTTER?" To paraphrase God in Job 40:7, "Put on your cup and lets fight like men!"

In fact Romans 9 speaks entirely of this matter of predestination, as well as some of the later verses in chapter 8. Go, read it.

John 8:34, Jesus says, “Everyone who commits a sin is a slave to sin.”

How many people here who have acquainted themselves in anyway with the history of slavery in America can point to any of those slaves and say "They decided to no longer be slaves and then they were no longer slaves?" You can't, because no slave can make the decision to no longer be a slave. It doesn't work that way. You cannot make that decision. You are a slave, you are at the mercy of your master and your master is Lucifer, the devil!

Romans 3:10-18 gives the account of all non-Christian hearts:

“No one is righteous, no not one. No one understands. No one seeks for God. All have turned aside. Together, they have become worthless. No one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. In their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
​

Freewill doesn't magically change all that. That is fact and no amount of will is going to fix that problem. Only God is going to fix that problem, only a God who lovingly reaches out and fixes you.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7)

You are God's ENEMY! Look to the Old Testament and see what God does to His enemies! No white flag is going to save you, even if you could wave that white flag! But you cannot! You cannot wave that white flag because you do not want to, as an unsaved human you have no desire to raise the flag of surrender. As an unsaved human all you want to do is fight God, continuously. You want to sin all day, never ending.

Maybe the lynchpin in any freewill doctrine is 1 Corinthians 2:14:

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
​

Unless you have the SPIRIT OF GOD WITHIN YOUR BODY you cannot accept His Word, His Truth, His Son. If you cannot accept these things than you cannot make the freewill choice for God. You will fight Him. You will call Him a fool. You will spit in His face. The only way to come to God is when God has already come to you. The only way to "get" God is if He already has you! The only way that God will ever become you only desire is if the Spirit is already inside of you and that can only happen when God decides to take you and make you His.

There is no freewill when it comes to matters of salvation. Freewill in this regard is a fallacy, a lie, a ruse, a trick. It is a means of diminishing the glory of God. It is a way to remove His credit from the end of the movie. It is a way to rewrite the Bible so that man is shown in a kind manner.

Let's take one last look at the Bible on this matter, for the moment.

Paul. Paul is the premier writer on the topic of predestination, that is the absence of a freewill choice on the part of the believer before coming to salvation. He is probably the biggest writer on this topic because his coming to Christ was so dependent on this notion of predestination (that isn't to say that all the other apostles had something besides predestination, in fact you go and look. Each one came to Christ when Christ came to THEM and said COME. He didn't say "Hey wanna be me friend and come for a walk with me?" He said "COME!".).

Paul, he didn't meet Jesus from some nice apostle on the side of the road. No God struck him blind on the side of the road. God said, "WHY ARE YOU PURSUING MY PEOPLE?" And then God healed him of his blindness. Paul didn't go "Wow, God healed me, I am going to make the active choice to now believe in Him!" No Paul BELIEVED IN HIM because God changed his heart. Just as God changed ever single Christian's heart that has ever lived, lives, or will live.

Greetings Pard,

Free will takes away from God's love. Freewill supposes that a man can, without the help of God, make the active choice, while still in the flesh, to say no to what the flesh wants and to then deny the flesh, and pick God.

Now, don't get me wrong, we humans have freewill.

Freewill means to have a series of choices and to pick only one of them without any intercession or outside influence.

I'm a johnny come lately to this thread. In reading your op and then scanning most of the thread, though not necessarily reading the whole thing I would like to make some observations.

Based on the sentences in the above quote, you are using free will far differently than I have ever understood it. It begins with the last sentence which is not the definition of "free will". At least what I learned, that you are describing the type of will that God has which is an autonomous will.

Free will is exactly the opposite because it is based on the fact that we were created with a rational soul. Meaning that we are able to make distinctions, resolutions, decisions based on choices that are outside of ourselves. We are incapable of making the choices available.

For example, you mentioned food. We did not create the food, it was not our will that made the choice available, we just need to choose any or some to eat. Same with more abstract choices, as contracts, rational decisions of if I am going to get a hair cut or buy ice cream instead.

IN your opening op you seem to be setting up a dichotmy or contradiction. Man has free will in the food examples and others like it, but not for salvation. We either have a rational soul or we do not. There is not possible way to be bi-willed or whatever word could describe our makeup.

Using the meaning that I have described, love to others, or to God is only possible if man has free will. That is why God created us as rational souls. Free will does not need additional help from God, when it is one the basics of our nature. God created us as rational souls, so that we could make choices, and thus be held accountable for those choices.

If we are merely pawns, if God chooses us or makes us do His will, then man is but an object, a tool, that has no responsibility. We are more like a gun in the hands of a human being. That person can use it for good, but also for evil but the responsible or agent of the action is the person, not the gun.

Consequently, if we are a tool, then there is no need to speak of a judgment. For what would we be judged?

It also seems to me that if Adam was given a command and would be held accountable for the decisions of that command, it surely had a consequence in his salvation, why not ours, since we are the same human being.

Just some thoughts.

 

[John O]

Greetings Pard,

If we are merely pawns, if God chooses us or makes us do His will, then man is but an object, a tool, that has no responsibility. We are more like a gun in the hands of a human being. That person can use it for good, but also for evil but the responsible or agent of the action is the person, not the gun.

Consequently, if we are a tool, then there is no need to speak of a judgment. For what would we be judged?

It also seems to me that if Adam was given a command and would be held accountable for the decisions of that command, it surely had a consequence in his salvation, why not ours, since we are the same human being.

Just some thoughts.

This is very well put but unfortunately you will see shortly some will disagree with you strongly. I believe part of the answer is looking at why God created us and then seeing His plan outworked in our lives for His glory.

John O

 

[Cassian]

This is very well put but unfortunately you will see shortly some will disagree with you strongly. I believe part of the answer is looking at why God created us and then seeing His plan outworked in our lives for His glory.

I'm sure that there will be some, maybe even many that might disagree.

God created man as a creature in His Image for the express purpose of having a relationship with man. But that relationship is based on mutual love, not force. The relationship of man with God is like the Trinity of each Person in an ever continuous flow of mutual love. God created man good, not perfect, so that man could be tested, that he could mature and attain immortality, perfection working with God in this relationship.

Without free will, properly understood, man could not glorify God. God did not need man, He surely did not need some object or tool to manipulate in order to gain glory.

Christ redeemed us from death, gave us eternal existance which was lost due to the fall, so that God and man could get back into the whole purpose of our existance again. Our life, our salvation is the perfection of ourselves with God's assistance with the choice of life or death the same as Adam had before Him.

 

[Stan53]

I'm sure that there will be some, maybe even many that might disagree.

God created man as a creature in His Image for the express purpose of having a relationship with man. But that relationship is based on mutual love, not force. The relationship of man with God is like the Trinity of each Person in an ever continuous flow of mutual love. God created man good, not perfect, so that man could be tested, that he could mature and attain immortality, perfection working with God in this relationship.

Without free will, properly understood, man could not glorify God. God did not need man, He surely did not need some object or tool to manipulate in order to gain glory.

Christ redeemed us from death, gave us eternal existance which was lost due to the fall, so that God and man could get back into the whole purpose of our existance again. Our life, our salvation is the perfection of ourselves with God's assistance with the choice of life or death the same as Adam had before Him.

:amen

Welcome to the fray Cassian.

 

[Cassian]

:amen

Welcome to the fray Cassian.

thanks!

 

[Grazer]

God chose me but I had a choice whether to respond, whether to accept the gift that was on offer. This doesn't mean I saved myself or had to earn my salvation but love is only meaningful if it is freely given, not forced or controlled in anyway. I could have said no.