Nice deflection Reba. Now would you mind answering the question?
We ALL THINK we are on God's side ( at least I do )
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The Fallacy of Freewill
- Thread starter Pard
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Nice deflection Reba. Now would you mind answering the question?
We ALL THINK we are on God's side ( at least I do )
Why is that?
former atheist
Member
One aspect of the viewpoint that mankind does not have free will, that I simply find offensive, is the fact that without the free will of mankind to choose obedience or disobedience to Gods will, is that God then becomes conflicted in Gods own will.
How can I make that argument? Here is how: If Man doesn’t have the free will to choose obedience or disobedience to the Will of God, then it is God who has the Will that some will be disobedient to him, and then shall perish. Yet God stated already in his word that he has a Will that none should perish.
The Doctrine that mankind does not have free will is in direct conflict with what God said of his Will for the salvation of Mankind. It is in conflict because of the very fact that without the choice being ours, to obey or to disobey, it is then God who has chosen and therefore God who has a will that some shall perish.
Is it not plain enough to understand the fallacy of the Doctrine wherefore Mankind doesn’t have Free Will?
How can I make that argument? Here is how: If Man doesn’t have the free will to choose obedience or disobedience to the Will of God, then it is God who has the Will that some will be disobedient to him, and then shall perish. Yet God stated already in his word that he has a Will that none should perish.
The Doctrine that mankind does not have free will is in direct conflict with what God said of his Will for the salvation of Mankind. It is in conflict because of the very fact that without the choice being ours, to obey or to disobey, it is then God who has chosen and therefore God who has a will that some shall perish.
Is it not plain enough to understand the fallacy of the Doctrine wherefore Mankind doesn’t have Free Will?
Pard
Member
Lord, why do men not read that which I write, and then insist to pose questions which would not even exist if they merely read that which I wrote? My only conclusion, of Father, is that through love and patience You wish that I further glorify You!
Brother, I cannot stress enough:
MEN HAVE FREE WILL! No one is saying that a man doesn't have the ability to decide for one thing over another! If this is what you believe sovereign grace teaches, then you have been misled by those who do not wish for you to know the truth of the matter! Calvinism is not in opposition to the matter of man have free will, rather, calvinism states that the free will of man CAN NEVER DECIDE FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. That ability was taken from us when Adam freely decided to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Your ability to decide for the correct and proper path was stripped of you on that day and at that very moment!
It is only through God that the choice can be revived in you, it is only through Jesus that you can use your God given free will to decide for your own salvation.
Don't you see? The mere ability for you to pick the Lord is a gift of the Lord!
Jesus died for all men, and the invitation to salvation was extended to all men, but no man will every pick their own salvation without the Lord giving them the power to pick for salvation, and when that power is given no man will ever pick against salvation. Truly, even your "choice" to pick the Gospel of Jesus Christ was God's gift, knowing full well that if He gave you that gift you would always pick the RIGHT choice, because when He gives you that power your eyes are opened and you realize that the choice is either death or life.
For this reason I wrote the title topic as "The Fallacy of Free Will" I did not declare that free will is a fallacy, but rather that there is often a fallacious nature to the free will that is spoken of in reverence at so many churches today.
Brother, I cannot stress enough:
MEN HAVE FREE WILL! No one is saying that a man doesn't have the ability to decide for one thing over another! If this is what you believe sovereign grace teaches, then you have been misled by those who do not wish for you to know the truth of the matter! Calvinism is not in opposition to the matter of man have free will, rather, calvinism states that the free will of man CAN NEVER DECIDE FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. That ability was taken from us when Adam freely decided to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Your ability to decide for the correct and proper path was stripped of you on that day and at that very moment!
It is only through God that the choice can be revived in you, it is only through Jesus that you can use your God given free will to decide for your own salvation.
Don't you see? The mere ability for you to pick the Lord is a gift of the Lord!
Jesus died for all men, and the invitation to salvation was extended to all men, but no man will every pick their own salvation without the Lord giving them the power to pick for salvation, and when that power is given no man will ever pick against salvation. Truly, even your "choice" to pick the Gospel of Jesus Christ was God's gift, knowing full well that if He gave you that gift you would always pick the RIGHT choice, because when He gives you that power your eyes are opened and you realize that the choice is either death or life.
For this reason I wrote the title topic as "The Fallacy of Free Will" I did not declare that free will is a fallacy, but rather that there is often a fallacious nature to the free will that is spoken of in reverence at so many churches today.
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Adullam
Member
Coming to the Lord is God ordained. A man can't decide to follow Jesus BEFORE being led to Jesus by the Father. But once we have been grafted into Christ THEN it is up to us to be diligent and obedient and continually wait on the Lord.
So we have free will before meeting the Lord....but outside His will and life. Then GOD DECIDES to regenerate us. THEN we have free will to do His will or not.
So we have free will before meeting the Lord....but outside His will and life. Then GOD DECIDES to regenerate us. THEN we have free will to do His will or not.
Which is a neat rationalization of getting, or trying to get around, the stark reality of Calvinism that man does not have a free will. Man's will became weak due to being mortal, but man never lost his free will. Christ renewed life, an eteranl existance whereby man could once again choose spiritual life of death and have consequences for that choice.
If predestination is the basis of ones theology as it is for Calvinism, then no matter how one attempts to redefine, change definitions, do an end around, man cannot have a free will. The two are mutually exclusive of each other as understood in reformed theology.
which is totally unscriptural. It also makes man bi-willed. We either have it or we don't. Scripture says we have free will. An independent will from God.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Where ? I have never seen a scripture that states that !
why does scripture actually need the phrase or word in order for one to know scripture speaks of man having a will, and a will for which he will be held accountable.
Every verse that commands man to believe is an implied choice of man. Adam had free will when He was given the command to not eat of the tree. It was his choice that he would or would not.
The reality of our existance also speaks loudly that we have a rational soul. That we make choices hundreds of times a day on a multitude of choices available. It would be absurd to think that the rationalization we do in making decisions is but a myth and we are simply following a predestined script.
If we don't have free will why would you be interested in any answer. If God set our actions before the foundations of the earth, then why would he also set out to confuse us? You parroting the answer that we do not, and I would be parroting that we do. Would not God have gotten it straight and right and have us both parrot the actual truth? Wouldn't God know?
Also, if God preordained all of our actions, why would He have revealed Himself to us. Why does He require us to believe, why does He require us to obey. It would be non sensical on His part to even give us any information about Himself since it has no bearing on who we are or what we do, since it is ONLY He that is active in this universe.
Philemon 1:14; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
I know it's a small epistle, many people miss it.
No, what people miss is the context. Paul (a prisioner of Jesus Christ ) was talking to a slave owner. It wasn't God telling us we have free will.
excellent verse. Also there is a text in Song of Solomon as well but I never can find it.
I understand the context, and regardless of who Paul was talking to, he acknowledges free will as being a reality in peoples lives. If you believe God inspired Paul and what he wrote in his epistles, then you have to acknowledge that free will was a concept that Paul accepted and acknowledged. Slavery has nothing to do with his comments to Philemon.
Context only matters when we want it to.
So just Because Paul uttered the words free will that makes it a doctrine? Paul also said he was a prisioner of Christ.
I think you should stick with keeping it in proper context. There are similarities in this epistle to Christ's relationship with us, but it won"t work like you think.
the question is does man have free will. Can man make decisions from choices available. Man either has a free will or he does not. This is not a gray area, or a matter that man does have it sometimes and not at others. We are not created with multiple systems which we can switch from one to the other depending on circumstances. Or that God blocks out our ability at certain points of use.
Also, free will was never under dispute for 1500 years. It has only become a problem for protestants since the reformation because of the only alternative system of Calvinism that was developed which poses the scenerio that man does not have a free will.
No it makes it a reality. Only those who teach against free will make it a doctrine...kind of like Calvin did.
Oh, it makes it a reality, but the reality that God knows, ordained and preplanned our life is not a reality, is merely a doctrine?!?!
Like I said, just because Paul uttered the words "free will" (and the KJV doesn't say that, and the verse in that version is pretty different from the one you quoted) doesn't make it something we have -- at least in the sense most people view "free will".
Do you care about context? You seem to think it doesn't matter, just that the words are there. It doesn't matter who Paul was addressing and it doesn't matter that a slave's treatment and forgiveness was the subject matter of the letter?
So you are going to bring up Calvin, huh? Have you actually read his work?
Josephus wrote: 'When they say that all things happen by fate, they do not take away from men the freedom of acting as they think fit; since their notion is that it pleased God to mix up the decrees of fate and man's will, so that man can act virtuously or viciously' (Antiq. xviii. i. 3)
The idea of choice being left to the individual is well brought out in the text ''Behold, I set before you this day a belssing and a curse' Likewise it is said 'See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. Since God has set before us two ways, the way of life and the way of death, we can walk in whichever way we choose. In Torah we are taught "Choose life that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed.
I think however God does intervene to the extent that after a man has made his choice whether good or bad, opportunity is granted to him to persevere in the course of action he has taken. The good man is encouraged to do good, and bad to remain bad. In other words in the way in which man wishes to walk he is guided.
The idea of choice being left to the individual is well brought out in the text ''Behold, I set before you this day a belssing and a curse' Likewise it is said 'See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. Since God has set before us two ways, the way of life and the way of death, we can walk in whichever way we choose. In Torah we are taught "Choose life that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed.
I think however God does intervene to the extent that after a man has made his choice whether good or bad, opportunity is granted to him to persevere in the course of action he has taken. The good man is encouraged to do good, and bad to remain bad. In other words in the way in which man wishes to walk he is guided.
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