Re: For Stan
Slider,
In reading back a few posts and reading this post by you, you seem to be trying to explain the existance of predestination doctrine as that established by John Calvin with a lot of adaptations by subsequent theologians.
You made this statement in a previous post...
Let me address the topic of Calvin and Calvinists. In short, often times when someone (like myself) takes any sort of a stance against the concept of free will, they are labeled a Calvinist. I myself am not a Calvinist, as I don't agree with all the tenets of what "Calvinism" says.
It is true today that Calvinism as Calvin developed it hardly exists any longer. But when anyone either states, or implies that man does not have a "free will" they will invaribly assume some form of Calvin's predestination theology. He is the only person in the the last 2000 years that has developed a whole system of theology based on predestination, which the lack of free will is of a necessity. Free will and predestination are mutually exclusive. Many reformed theologians have over the last 500 years tried to ameliorate the stark unscriptural premise of predestination.
However, no matter how you try to soften the doctrine, as long as it remains it will speak contradictory of scripture which is wholly based on man being created with a rational soul, a free will. A will that is independent of God's will. A will that man is obligated to submit to God's will to fulfill the meaning of our very existance.
Predestination is not a new term from Calvin though He was the first to develop a doctrine and a whole system around it. Augustine is the first to mention it. It was solely his view, it was not a belief of the Church at that time, nor since. The concept lay dormant for 1000 years before Calvin, an Augustinian, resurrected it and fleshed it out based on his interpretation of scripture.
Augustine did not get the idea from scripture. Augustine was greatly influenced by Manicheanism/Gnosticism, a former belief he had before he converted to Christianity. Mani the founder of Manicheanism assimulated many views form of existing forms of religion, including some of Christianity, but mostly of Gnosticism, Zoastroism. Augustine was also a student of neo-plotonism which can also be seen in his theology. But predestination is a basis of Gnosticism, not scripture.
Now lets look at a couple of your statments in this post. I''l let Stan53 respond to each individually if he so chooses. He has that free will, he is not predestined to answer to your statments no more than you were predestined to write them.
Psalms 37:23 in the KJV says:
The steps of a goodman are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Before man can become good, which in Psalms is one who like David believes. His steps are ordered, not forced, or compelled. God before time had created the path that all believers would of necessity need to follow IF they expected to be saved. There is no predestination here of someone to become a believer, or even predestined those steps of any particular person. It is akin to the idea that God created the narrow road, and we can either take the narrow road with its obligations or take the broad road which leads to destruction.
This is pretty clear. Before anything is done – including what we do – God declared it willhappen. It does not only mean God knowsit will happen, it means God called and caused the action to happen. That is why he said, “I will do all mypleasure”. We can’t do anything tochange it.
The verse does not even imply what you are saying here. God can declare everything that will happen because He is omniscient. However, God, because He is omnicicent has no reason to predestinate it to happen. In other words foreknowledge does not presume predestination. In fact, it actually works the other way around, Because God foreknows all things, He can predestinate certain events or actions. He can also prophesy such as with Judas, he did not need to predestine Judas to betray Jesus.
You wanted to discuss verse 13 of that chapter:
I bring near myrighteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israelmy glory.
According to the Bible version you quoted, it says “grant”,but the KJV says “will place”. I don’thave a problem with the word either way. Both versions note some things. First, the Lord is bringing his righteousness; and second, it’s not faroff. In other words, it’s going tohappen. He didn’t note anything couldstop it, since he made a declaration and he is going to do his will as he seesfit.
this is speaking of Christ coming into this world. Christ was predestined to enter into this world, and predestined at a certain time when that time was appropriate. But the events of man were not predestined. They were foreknown and God saw it as appropriate to place Jesus in this world. All those men who crucified Jesus did all of it by their own free will. Everyone of them will need to answer to Christ at the judgement. God did not cause any to sin, surely did not predestinate any to sin.
I want to comment on what you placed emphasis on,however. You noted it says (according towhichever Bible you were quoting) that it says “grant” and not “force”. I’m not sure where your mind is or what youwere thinking. We are talking about theLord’s will. Why is your language saying“forced”? It’s a rather negative way oflooking at it. God has a will, a planand a set path for you and you are questioning whether it’s being forced onyou?
The fact of the matter, God has the same plan for you as He does for every single human being. His entire creation, Christ's recreation, and eternity is premised on the very same purpose. God created this world and man in so that He could have an eternal union of communion with man. Every single man, but He did not want an arrangement, an object to manipulate, so He created man free, Man can freely join with Him or reject Him. Revelation is premised on man having a free will, a rational soul.
Predestination as understood in the reformed view is unscriptual as is all the attendent secondary statments known as Tulip.
God actually did “force” Paul into submission, as he didJonas. You can play with the wording,but if you say you have a choice when you are blind in the street or in awhale’s belly, you don’t have a choice. You are being held captive. However, they both worked out for good. It just seems strange to me thatthe flesh will question whether something good is being forced on us instead ofa plan being put into action for our good.
this is an eisgesis based on a falty premise of predestination. There is nothing in the context of the stories to even hint that Paul was predestined, or held captive. It clearly states that He has some very strong influences, as was with Jonah, but neither was forced to do anything. It would be against the very sovereignty of God, God's purpose in creating man, and for even giving us His revelation.
Speaking of Romans 8:28-30… he said it was predestinated. I have no problem with what you said aboutit, but the fact that it is predestinated not only means God knows it’s goingto happen, but he (as Isaiah said) he declared it.
However, what was predestined. In this instance no person was predestined to believe, and no person was even predestined to day anything. God predestined that those that do believe, become part of His Body, His elect, He predestined that He would make them holy, blameless, and conformed to His Image. He is predestinating actions upon believers, not believers themselves. And if a believer desires to leave the fold, then obviously they will no longer be transformed.
yes, but that does not preclude predestination. In fact, it makes predestination superfluous. Many also confuse God's providential care with predestination as well. God can guide, direct our steps without forcing us to even follow him. Man does this all the time in this world to each other and we don't even have foreknowledge, let alone the power of predestination.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
(One cannot elect himself)
this is true, but then God cannot make you an elect unless one believes. So man does cause God to elect him by faith, thus he is an elect, part of the elect, His body. If God simply would appoint, or predestine any to be an elect, then there would be no purpose in man believing, or even of God calling all men to repentance. It is one of those obvious anonamalies of imposing predestination upon scripture.
All of your other listings have the same false conclusion because it is based on a false premise of predestination.
