The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

[Bick]

Hi Elijah674 and others:

It is important to note that in 1 Tim. 1:17, the word translated "immortal" should be "incorruptible", which is a different connotation.

The word in Greek word here is "aphthartos", meaning "incorruptible."

"Incorruption" should the word used in Rom. 2:7 [corrected] and 2 Tim. 1:10 instead of "immortality."

Only three verses in the NT use "immortality" correctly:

1 Cor. 15:53 and 54, telling us that at the "rapture", those believers still alive, being mortal, will put on "immortality."

And 1 Tim. 6:16, speaking of Christ Jesus, "Who only hath immortality..."

You might say, "what's the difference?" Well, Christ only hath immortality, that is, to never die again, for he was mortal.
Yet, that cannot be said of God. But, it can be said that God is "incorruptible", incapable of corruption and death.

Please check this out using a complete concordance.

Bick

 

[Vic C.]

Good points, Bick. It still leaves the question lingering though; when do believers achieve immortality; at the time of physical death or at the time of resurrection/transformation?

 

[Elijah674]

Hi Elijah674 and others:

---
Elijah here: I will reply to the 'message posted'. (Nothing personal! )
---

It is important to note that in 1 Tim. 1:17, the word translated "immortal" should be "incorruptible", which is a different connotation.

The word in Greek word here is "aphthartos", meaning "incorruptible."

"Incorruption" should the word used in Gen. 2:7 and 2 Tim. 1:10 instead of "immortality."

Only three verses in the NT use "immortality" correctly:

1 Cor. 15:53 and 54, telling us that at the "rapture", those believers still alive, being mortal, will put on "immortality."

And 1 Tim. 6:16, speaking of Christ Jesus, "Who only hath immortality..."

---
OK: Me again. I have NO problem with the K.J. as it is written. By that I mean that the true meaning of mortal & Immortal 'was truely a Spiritual Exciting Study for me'. (And still is) With your wisdom it would make it understood that much quicker, huh!
---

You might say, "what's the difference?" Well, Christ only hath immortality, that is, to never die again, for he was mortal.
Yet, that cannot be said of God. But, it can be said that God is "incorruptible", incapable of corruption and death.

---
Elijah here again: On the above statement, it seems that we are 180 degrees apart. {?} I can't tell for sure what you have [posted]? I might just touch on the Godheads Unity as Eternally IMMORTAL. Like Christ in Heb. 8 + the Warning in the next verse. (No start or ending!) Christ as the 'Promised Man/Son' before He was, still found Him as God/Christ Immortal. That too was the Eternal PLAN when [They] knew in the Eternites that it was to be found needed!

And to acknowledge the subject title, let me just say that the Word/Christ/Eternal/Immortal God did not have any part in creating anything that was of the Godheads ETERNAL IMMORTALITY!
Or [it] would also be God. In other words, all of Their 'living' creation had a beginning & it is CONDITIONALLY so. Nah. 1:9
---

Please check this out using a complete concordance.

Bick

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran:

The Word of God says "redeeming" and you call it preserving.

You will not receive the Word of God with meekness, if you impose your understanding upon scripture. God will redeem our soul from the grave. But he will not preserve it from death. The scriptures are clear, that when the body dies the soul dies as well. Psalm 56:13 is talking about delivering the soul from death. In order to deliver the soul from death, the soul must first die !

If God redeems one's soul, that is preserving it, silly!

John 8:51
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
(KJV)

Never see WHICH death? Flesh death? NO! The "second death" which is the casting into the "lake of fire" is what our Lord is talking about there.

Heb 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(KJV)

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV)


2 Cor 5:1-8
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)

Maybe you ought to re-read Eccl.12:5-7 too, since it declares what happens at flesh death, the flesh body going back to the elements of the earth where it came from, and our spirit going back to God Who gave it. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living like our Lord Jesus said (Matt.22:31-32).

Those 'dead-in-the-ground' theorists have blinded you.

 

[Hawkins]

They don't seem to die that quickly.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6(NIV)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The same concept can also be found in other early Jews religious document, the book of Enoch,

Chapter 22:3-4
Then Raphael, one of the Holy Angels who was with me, answered me, and said to me: "These beautiful places are there so that the spirits, the souls of the dead, might be gathered into them. For them they were created; so that here they might gather the souls of the sons of men.
And these places they made, where they will keep them until the day of judgement, and until their appointed time, and that appointed time will be long, until the great judgement comes upon them.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Veteran:

The Word of God says "redeeming" and you call it preserving.

You will not receive the Word of God with meekness, if you impose your understanding upon scripture. God will redeem our soul from the grave. But he will not preserve it from death. The scriptures are clear, that when the body dies the soul dies as well. Psalm 56:13 is talking about delivering the soul from death. In order to deliver the soul from death, the soul must first die !

If God redeems one's soul, that is preserving it, silly!

John 8:51
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
(KJV)

Never see WHICH death? Flesh death? NO! The "second death" which is the casting into the "lake of fire" is what our Lord is talking about there.

Heb 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(KJV)

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(KJV)


2 Cor 5:1-8
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)

Maybe you ought to re-read Eccl.12:5-7 too, since it declares what happens at flesh death, the flesh body going back to the elements of the earth where it came from, and our spirit going back to God Who gave it. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living like our Lord Jesus said (Matt.22:31-32).

Those 'dead-in-the-ground' theorists have blinded you.

Hi Veteran:

What did God do, put your soul in a pickle jar ?

What does it mean, to never see death ? Not die ? You seem to be suggeting, that -- "you shalt not surely die" ! Dealing with the "soul" here !

 

[veteran]

Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, quoting from Isaiah 25, that at the "last trump" is when death is swallowed up in victory. But that's ONLY for those in Christ Jesus. In 1 Cor.15 Paul also used four different Greek words for "corruption", "incorruption", "this mortal", and put on "immortality".

1 Cor 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(KJV)

If you aren't paying attention to that, it's easy to miss the "It" part. The "It" part is our soul, our person, our intellect, the unique part that makes us who we are inside. Paul does not say the word soul, but that's what he's pointing to that is sown in corruption (flesh), but raised in incorruption, sown in dishonour, but raised in glory, sown in weakness, but raised in power, SOWN A NATURAL BODY, BUT RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.

The "It" part is different than a body. It is what is sown in a flesh natural body, but raised with a spiritual body.


1 Cor 15:49-51
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

Just as "It" has been sown in a natural body image of the earthy (flesh body), "It" will also bear the image of the heavenly (body of incorruption).

Those in Heaven don't have flesh bodies, for like Paul says, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. When Christ returns, the Heavenly dimension is going to be manifested on the earth, the vail of Isaiah 25 being removed from all peoples. That includes the unjust (wicked) also.


In 1 Cor.15:53, Paul laid out the requirement for immortality through Christ...

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(KJV)

Those are four different Greek words in the manuscript. Corruptible is about the flesh natural body; incorruption is about the spiritual body, and "this mortal" is about the "It" part still being in a liable to perish state (i.e., "second death"), and "immortality" is eternal life through Christ Jesus.

We know per God's Word the wicked are going to be resurrected too (John 5:29). Their corruptible will put on incorruption too, BUT, their "It", the "this mortal" part or soul, will STILL be in a liable to perish state subject to the "second death" (lake of fire). Their souls will still be in a 'dead' state for refusing Christ, even as their souls while they were in the flesh was 'dead' then too.

But that 'dead' idea does not... mean they are literally dead, but SPIRITUALLY dead, their "It" part not revived by The Holy Spirit through belief on The Saviour Jesus Christ, not a "new creature" inside, but full of dead men's bones like our Lord Jesus said about the spiritual condition of the blind scribes and Pharisees.

NO soul will truly die before God says it's time. And He revealed just when that will be; at the "lake of fire" event after Christ's Milennium reign per Rev.20. That also... is when the souls of Satan and his followers will perish. It's called the "second death" in God's Word.

That's how the wicked can be resurrected to a body of incorruption, while still being subject to the "second death" later. Their "It" part will still be in a "mortal" liable to perish condition.

 

[Hawkins]

Hi Veteran:

What did God do, put your soul in a pickle jar ?

What does it mean, to never see death ? Not die ? You seem to be suggeting, that -- "you shalt not surely die" ! Dealing with the "soul" here !

Spiritual death usually concerns a separation from God. So that verse can be multi-fold. It signifies that Adam will be driven out of Eden (a kind of separation from God) thus Adam is no longer in the Kingdom of God. And since Adam was also kept from the reach of the Tree of Life, he and his descedents will have to experience the physical death. Prophetically, it also implies that those who seek knowledge to judge but without relying on God by faith will also die their second death, a permanent separation from God.

 

[Mysteryman]

Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, quoting from Isaiah 25, that at the "last trump" is when death is swallowed up in victory. But that's ONLY for those in Christ Jesus. In 1 Cor.15 Paul also used four different Greek words for "corruption", "incorruption", "this mortal", and put on "immortality".

1 Cor 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(KJV)

If you aren't paying attention to that, it's easy to miss the "It" part. The "It" part is our soul, our person, our intellect, the unique part that makes us who we are inside. Paul does not say the word soul, but that's what he's pointing to that is sown in corruption (flesh), but raised in incorruption, sown in dishonour, but raised in glory, sown in weakness, but raised in power, SOWN A NATURAL BODY, BUT RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.

The "It" part is different than a body. It is what is sown in a flesh natural body, but raised with a spiritual body.


1 Cor 15:49-51
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

Just as "It" has been sown in a natural body image of the earthy (flesh body), "It" will also bear the image of the heavenly (body of incorruption).

Those in Heaven don't have flesh bodies, for like Paul says, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. When Christ returns, the Heavenly dimension is going to be manifested on the earth, the vail of Isaiah 25 being removed from all peoples. That includes the unjust (wicked) also.


In 1 Cor.15:53, Paul laid out the requirement for immortality through Christ...

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(KJV)

Those are four different Greek words in the manuscript. Corruptible is about the flesh natural body; incorruption is about the spiritual body, and "this mortal" is about the "It" part still being in a liable to perish state (i.e., "second death"), and "immortality" is eternal life through Christ Jesus.

We know per God's Word the wicked are going to be resurrected too (John 5:29). Their corruptible will put on incorruption too, BUT, their "It", the "this mortal" part or soul, will STILL be in a liable to perish state subject to the "second death" (lake of fire). Their souls will still be in a 'dead' state for refusing Christ, even as their souls while they were in the flesh was 'dead' then too.

But that 'dead' idea does not... mean they are literally dead, but SPIRITUALLY dead, their "It" part not revived by The Holy Spirit through belief on The Saviour Jesus Christ, not a "new creature" inside, but full of dead men's bones like our Lord Jesus said about the spiritual condition of the blind scribes and Pharisees.

NO soul will truly die before God says it's time. And He revealed just when that will be; at the "lake of fire" event after Christ's Milennium reign per Rev.20. That also... is when the souls of Satan and his followers will perish. It's called the "second death" in God's Word.

That's how the wicked can be resurrected to a body of incorruption, while still being subject to the "second death" later. Their "It" part will still be in a "mortal" liable to perish condition.

Hi Vet:

The soul that sinneth dies - Period ! Every man sins and falls short of the glory of God - Period ! When you die in this earth , your body goes back to dust from where it came. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. But your soul goes to the grave with your dead body ! God does not put your soul in a pickle jar ! :biglaugh

He does not preserve it from this death ! The Word of God is clear, the soul dies ! Psalm 44:25 and Psalm 89:48 and Psalm 33:19 & 20.

However, God can preserve your soul from the second death - Psalm 121:7 < But this verse is talking about putting your trust in God to help you keep you from evil. "Preserving your soul from evil"

In Adam all die, including your soul, which needs to be redeemed from death = the grave. The sin of Adam , for we are appointed once to die. Both body and soul. The spirit of man goes back to the giver, which is God. But the soul goes to the grave, which will be redeemed at your resurrrection.

 

[Elijah674]

Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, quoting from Isaiah 25, that at the "last trump" is when death is swallowed up in victory. But that's ONLY for those in Christ Jesus. In 1 Cor.15 Paul also used four different Greek words for "corruption", "incorruption", "this mortal", and put on "immortality".

1 Cor 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(KJV)

If you aren't paying attention to that, it's easy to miss the "It" part. The "It" part is our soul, our person, our intellect, the unique part that makes us who we are inside. Paul does not say the word soul, but that's what he's pointing to that is sown in corruption (flesh), but raised in incorruption, sown in dishonour, but raised in glory, sown in weakness, but raised in power, SOWN A NATURAL BODY, BUT RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.

The "It" part is different than a body. It is what is sown in a flesh natural body, but raised with a spiritual body.


1 Cor 15:49-51
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(KJV)

Just as "It" has been sown in a natural body image of the earthy (flesh body), "It" will also bear the image of the heavenly (body of incorruption).

Those in Heaven don't have flesh bodies, for like Paul says, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. When Christ returns, the Heavenly dimension is going to be manifested on the earth, the vail of Isaiah 25 being removed from all peoples. That includes the unjust (wicked) also.


In 1 Cor.15:53, Paul laid out the requirement for immortality through Christ...

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(KJV)

Those are four different Greek words in the manuscript. Corruptible is about the flesh natural body; incorruption is about the spiritual body, and "this mortal" is about the "It" part still being in a liable to perish state (i.e., "second death"), and "immortality" is eternal life through Christ Jesus.

We know per God's Word the wicked are going to be resurrected too (John 5:29). Their corruptible will put on incorruption too, BUT, their "It", the "this mortal" part or soul, will STILL be in a liable to perish state subject to the "second death" (lake of fire). Their souls will still be in a 'dead' state for refusing Christ, even as their souls while they were in the flesh was 'dead' then too.

But that 'dead' idea does not... mean they are literally dead, but SPIRITUALLY dead, their "It" part not revived by The Holy Spirit through belief on The Saviour Jesus Christ, not a "new creature" inside, but full of dead men's bones like our Lord Jesus said about the spiritual condition of the blind scribes and Pharisees.

NO soul will truly die before God says it's time. And He revealed just when that will be; at the "lake of fire" event after Christ's Milennium reign per Rev.20. That also... is when the souls of Satan and his followers will perish. It's called the "second death" in God's Word.

That's how the wicked can be resurrected to a body of incorruption, while still being subject to the "second death" later. Their "It" part will still be in a "mortal" liable to perish condition.

Hi Vet:

The soul that sinneth dies - Period ! Every man sins and falls short of the glory of God - Period ! When you die in this earth , your body goes back to dust from where it came. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. But your soul goes to the grave with your dead body ! God does not put your soul in a pickle jar ! :biglaugh

He does not preserve it from this death ! The Word of God is clear, the soul dies ! Psalm 44:25 and Psalm 89:48 and Psalm 33:19 & 20.

However, God can preserve your soul from the second death - Psalm 121:7 < But this verse is talking about putting your trust in God to help you keep you from evil. "Preserving your soul from evil"

In Adam all die, including your soul, which needs to be redeemed from death = the grave. The sin of Adam , for we are appointed once to die. Both body and soul. The spirit of man goes back to the giver, which is God. But the soul goes to the grave, which will be redeemed at your resurrrection.

Hi, 'i' will have to give your postings a great grade on patience. Anyhow, it sure sounds as if most believe in a lukwarm hell as well? And NO soul could be Immortal and not be God.
And it seems that, that was in satan first lie also?

-Elijah

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran:

What did God do, put your soul in a pickle jar ?

What does it mean, to never see death ? Not die ? You seem to be suggeting, that -- "you shalt not surely die" ! Dealing with the "soul" here !

Spiritual death usually concerns a separation from God. So that verse can be multi-fold. It signifies that Adam will be driven out of Eden (a kind of separation from God) thus Adam is no longer in the Kingdom of God. And since Adam was also kept from the reach of the Tree of Life, he and his descedents will have to experience the physical death. Prophetically, it also implies that those who seek knowledge to judge but without relying on God by faith will also die their second death, a permanent separation from God.

God told Adam that in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. Adam then lived on to be 930 years old. All born in the flesh since have inherited his sin that causes death. But the Good News is that God sent us The Saviour Jesus Christ so that those who believe on Him would be saved. We must be born of water and of The Spirit through Christ for our souls to be saved, redeemed, preserved, or however one wants to say it.

But those who refuse Christ's Salvation are still like Adam after he sinned. Yet they must stand in judgment before Christ also.

Ezek 3:19
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
(KJV)

Does that mean the wicked when they die the first death, a flesh death, that they're no more? No. The death that is about is of the "second death", destruction in the "lake of fire" at the judgment.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet:

The soul that sinneth dies - Period ! Every man sins and falls short of the glory of God - Period ! When you die in this earth , your body goes back to dust from where it came. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. But your soul goes to the grave with your dead body ! God does not put your soul in a pickle jar ! :biglaugh

He does not preserve it from this death ! The Word of God is clear, the soul dies ! Psalm 44:25 and Psalm 89:48 and Psalm 33:19 & 20.

However, God can preserve your soul from the second death - Psalm 121:7 < But this verse is talking about putting your trust in God to help you keep you from evil. "Preserving your soul from evil"

In Adam all die, including your soul, which needs to be redeemed from death = the grave. The sin of Adam , for we are appointed once to die. Both body and soul. The spirit of man goes back to the giver, which is God. But the soul goes to the grave, which will be redeemed at your resurrrection.

You're heeding a doctrine of men that is not written in God's Word. If you believe the soul dies along with the flesh at the first death, then that is to infer the "second death" of the lake of fire event also happens at flesh death, for everyone! That's a doctrine of devils, and is not written in God's Word. It's those who can't get away from their carnal mind that deny Eccl.12:5-7 and 1 Cor.15 about the difference between a flesh body and the spiritual body image of the heavenly. When you die and your flesh is buried, you're gonna' find yourself either in hell or on the other side of the great gulf with the rest of the saints. It's your choice.

 

[Bick]

CORRECTION: In my post #646, "Gen. 2:14" should read "Rom. 2:14."

Bick

 

[Bick]

Good points, Bick. It still leaves the question lingering though; when do believers achieve immortality; at the time of physical death or at the time of resurrection/transformation?

MY COMENTS: I think the Apostle Paul makes it clear that at the "rapture" those who have died in Christ, the corruptible, put on incorruption (that is, to never die again---to be vivified),

and those still alive, the mortal, put on immortality (also, to be vivified). 1 Cor. 15:52-54.

That is when believers in the Body of Christ achieve incorruption/immortality!

 

[Mysteryman]

CORRECTION: In my post #646, "Gen. 2:14" should read "Rom. 2:14."

Bick

Hi Bick:

I would like to see these threads and posts numbered , as that would make it easy to find or send someone towards a certain post. However, Your so called post # 646 is not your post number, it is the amount of posts you have posted to this date. :yes

 

[veteran]

Good points, Bick. It still leaves the question lingering though; when do believers achieve immortality; at the time of physical death or at the time of resurrection/transformation?

MY COMENTS: I think the Apostle Paul makes it clear that at the "rapture" those who have died in Christ, the corruptible, put on incorruption (that is, to never die again---to be vivified),

and those still alive, the mortal, put on immortality (also, to be vivified). 1 Cor. 15:52-54.

That is when believers in the Body of Christ achieve incorruption/immortality!

Yet there's a problem with thinking a body of incorruption is only for the saints, because our Lord Jesus also mentioned the wicked are going to be resurrected too, what He called the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5).

Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 to have eternal life through Christ, we MUST go through two changes. Corruption must put on incorruption, AND this mortal must put on immortality.

So if the wicked are resurrected too, like Scripture declares, then what is it with them that is resurrected, their flesh body? No. They will appear in bodies of incorruption too, but the "this mortal" part, their souls, will still be in a liable to perish condition, not putting on immortality. Thus the idea of incorruption does not mean automatic Salvation through Christ, for the wicked will be raised too, but still be subject to the "second death".

And that's exactly in-line with the way He presented the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. Both Lazarus and the rich man died, and their flesh was buried. The rich man was placed in hell, but Lazarus was taken to a place across a great fixed gulf apart from the rich man.

 

[Bick]

Good points, Bick. It still leaves the question lingering though; when do believers achieve immortality; at the time of physical death or at the time of resurrection/transformation?

MY COMENTS: I think the Apostle Paul makes it clear that at the "rapture" those who have died in Christ, the corruptible, put on incorruption (that is, to never die again---to be vivified),

and those still alive, the mortal, put on immortality (also, to be vivified). 1 Cor. 15:52-54.

That is when believers in the Body of Christ achieve incorruption/immortality!

Yet there's a problem with thinking a body of incorruption is only for the saints, because our Lord Jesus also mentioned the wicked are going to be resurrected too, what He called the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5).

Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 to have eternal life through Christ, we MUST go through two changes. Corruption must put on incorruption, AND this mortal must put on immortality.

So if the wicked are resurrected too, like Scripture declares, then what is it with them that is resurrected, their flesh body? No. They will appear in bodies of incorruption too, but the "this mortal" part, their souls, will still be in a liable to perish condition, not putting on immortality. Thus the idea of incorruption does not mean automatic Salvation through Christ, for the wicked will be raised too, but still be subject to the "second death".

And that's exactly in-line with the way He presented the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. Both Lazarus and the rich man died, and their flesh was buried. The rich man was placed in hell, but Lazarus was taken to a place across a great fixed gulf apart from the rich man.

MY COMMENTS: I'm not sure exactly, but it sounds as if you are equating "resurrection" with "putting in incorruption".

The word for "resurrection" in the Greek is "anastasis" meaning "a standing or rising up" (Young's Concordance). There are recorded in the Bible a number of resurrections, but, except for Christ, they died again.

So, when the wicked are resurrected to be judged, they would still be corruptible.
In Rev. 20:15, we are told that the wicked, whose names are not in the book of life, were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death for them.
This, to me, is the "the resurrection of damnation (judgment)" the Lord spoke about.

I don't understand why you say we (alive) must go through two changes. Those who have died in Christ are the "corruptible", and we which are alive at the catching away, are the "mortals", the way Paul defines it.
In a sense, being "corruptible" and "mortal" are the same thing. We are "corruptible" and we are "mortal". But, for us alive at the calling of the Lord, there is only one change: putting on immortality.

It may be also enlightening to know that in 1 Cor. 15:44-46, the word "natural" should be correctly rendered "soulish."

 

[veteran]

MY COMMENTS: I'm not sure exactly, but it sounds as if you are equating "resurrection" with "putting in incorruption".

I assume you can read, so what is our Lord Jesus showing with the story about Lazarus and the rich man? Did He not show that both of them died with their flesh buried, yet their souls were taken to one of two places in the heavenly dimension? (I'm not Catholic, so I'm not pushing their various doctrines on Purgatory.) But either you accept what our Lord Jesus showed there, or you don't. I choose to accept the objects and that order He showed there, regardless that Lazarus and the rich man may have been figurative individuals. The order our Lord Jesus revealed with that just so happens to align with what Paul taught in 2 Cor.5, and also with Eccl.12:5-7 of what happens at flesh death.

Paul's Message in 1 Cor.15 is teaching the same thing, and even declares there's two different types of bodies, one that is natural or of the flesh, and one that is the "spiritual body". Paul even said that as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (1 Cor.15:49). Have only Christ's servants borne the image of the earthy? No, the unjust have too.

That's 4 Bible witnesses showing the difference between two dimensions of existence, the earthy and the heavenly. A body of incorruption is of the heavenly order, the "image of the heavenly", also what Paul called "a spiritual body". It is necessary first in order for "this mortal" to put on "immortality". That's what Paul taught when he showed for death to be swallowed up in victory through Christ, we must go through both changes, not just one.

The word for "resurrection" in the Greek is "anastasis" meaning "a standing or rising up" (Young's Concordance). There are recorded in the Bible a number of resurrections, but, except for Christ, they died again.

There's a major difference between our Lord Jesus doing miracles on earth with raising certain ones from the dead to show God's Power, and the actual resurrection. You do realize the difference don't you, since Christ was the firstfruit of the resurrection? In all NT cases, when the "resurrection" is being spoken of, it's either about Christ's resurrection from the dead, or the resurrection to come. How then were the dead raised through Christ and His Apostles, and even through Elijah then? That should be enough to show you how those 4 Scripture witnesses above show that difference too. To be specific, it's pointing to the body of incorruption already existing, but not one's soul putting on immortality which is required for the resurrection. None that have died have put on immortality yet, though they already have the "image of the heavenly" like Christ showed with Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16.

So, when the wicked are resurrected to be judged, they would still be corruptible.
In Rev. 20:15, we are told that the wicked, whose names are not in the book of life, were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death for them.
This, to me, is the "the resurrection of damnation (judgment)" the Lord spoke about.

What of Scripture like Rev.3:9, where our Lord Jesus says He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to come worship before the feet of His elect? What of those of the nations that Satan leads upon the "camp of the saints" just prior to the great white throne judgment? Where did they come from all of sudden? Zechariah 14 answers that, with the nations that are left after the day of Christ's coming. What of those put in the "outer darkness"? What of John 5:29 where Jesus declares at the sound of His voice ALL in the graves will be raised at the same time, both the just and the unjust? If you cover enough Scripture, and actually heed it, you'll find there's plenty of Biblical evidence for the wicked being raised also at Christ's coming.

I don't understand why you say we (alive) must go through two changes. Those who have died in Christ are the "corruptible", and we which are alive at the catching away, are the "mortals", the way Paul defines it.

Paul is pulling from Isaiah 25 in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter about death being swallowed up in victory. So just WHEN, truly, is all death swallowed up in victory? Didn't our Lord Jesus show there's such a thing as a "second death"? He sure did, and that "second death" is the destruction into the "lake of fire" at the end of His thousand years reign with His elect. Can you not see that's about TWO required changes, for Paul is covering that too in 1 Cor.15?

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(KJV)

Those are 4 separate Greeks words in the manuscript. There's a division between the word "and".

After flesh death, is there still a part that can be killed? YES! For that's what our Lord Jesus warned us about in Luke 12:4-5 and Matt.10:28, to not fear those who can kill the body (flesh), and not our soul, but to fear Him Who can destroy both our body and soul in 'gehenna' ("hell"- put for the lake of fire event). It's the body of incorruption, a spiritual body with soul that goes into the lake of fire, for that's what Satan and his angels have; they've never been born in the flesh, and it's not written they ever will be. After Christ's coming and the resurrection, we all will have a body of incorruption and a soul. It's the soul that is the "this mortal" part Paul was speaking of. Only those who overcome in Christ will put on immortality of their soul. And that's the operation of BOTH deaths being swallowed up in victory through Christ Jesus.

In a sense, being "corruptible" and "mortal" are the same thing. We are "corruptible" and we are "mortal". But, for us alive at the calling of the Lord, there is only one change: putting on immortality.

That's probably the way many, many preachers have chosen to interpret 1 Cor.15:53. But Apostle Paul separated those four terms in the Greek. Your last statement would mean denial of what Paul said in that verse with those 4 different Greek words. In the previous part of that chapter, Paul was not specific of what "this mortal" putting on "immortality" is about, not until verse 53 does he mention it. Up to that point, he was only speaking of the idea of a 'body', corruption and incorruption, earthy vs. heavenly.

It may be also enlightening to know that in 1 Cor. 15:44-46, the word "natural" should be correctly rendered "soulish."

The Greek for "natural" is 'psuchikos', which means 'animate, sensuous, belonging to the breath'. It is distinct from the concept of a rational soul, because it's something animals have too. Also, Paul is making several clear distinctions between earthy bodies vs. heavenly bodies, and that's ample reason to know he was speaking of our animate flesh with that word "natural". He even compared God breathing into Adam's flesh when Adam became "a living soul", flesh becoming animate.

The simpliest way I can explain the depth of what Paul is teaching, is how he's describing two differnt realms (earthy vs. heavenly) and two different types of bodies (natural vs. spiritual). In 2 Cor.5, he declared that if our earthy tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavenly. Even there he's talking about the difference between a flesh earthy body and a heavenly spiritual body. He also says 'we' groan in our earthy body, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our house which is from heaven.

The big question is, what's the "we" that groans? What's the 'it' that seeks to be clothed with our house which is from heaven? And what part is that house or tabernacle, for both of those objects are something provided for 'what' to dwell in?

The we, or it part, is our soul, the real part of us, our person. That's the part which makes each one of us unique, and individually accountable to our Heavenly Father. The natural body is our earthy tabernacle our house now. And the spiritual body Paul taught is that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. But BOTH are only a 'house', a body for something to dwell within. That something is our soul.

In this earthly realm, our soul dwells in a flesh natural body. It is corruptible, dies and decays, and goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. That body is temporal. But in the heavenly, our house is a spiritual body, a body of incorruption, one that can only be destroyed by God at the "second death" with perishing in the "lake of fire". If the body of incorruption perishes in the lake of fire, the soul dwelling within it perishes too. That is the "mortal" state Paul was talking about with "this mortal". To continue to live eternally, that mortal part (soul) MUST ALSO put on immortality through Christ Jesus.

This is why a mortal soul being resurrected to a body of incorruption (heavenly "spiritual body") does NOT mean automatic Salvation through Christ Jesus, because a 'mortal' soul MUST ALSO put on immortality to have eternal Life.

When the resurrection happens at Christ's coming, both the just AND the unjust will be resurrected (or changed) to bodies of incorruption (John 5:29; Acts 15:24). But those of the "resurrection of damnation" will STILL have mortal souls that will be subject to the "second death" in the "lake of fire". Those dead souls are still going to be with us throughout Christ's thousand years reign. And it's those dead souls of the still existing nations which Satan will deceive later at the end of that thousand years, and lead upon the "camp of the saints" on earth, per Rev.20.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Vet:

The soul that sinneth dies - Period ! Every man sins and falls short of the glory of God - Period ! When you die in this earth , your body goes back to dust from where it came. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. But your soul goes to the grave with your dead body ! God does not put your soul in a pickle jar ! :biglaugh

He does not preserve it from this death ! The Word of God is clear, the soul dies ! Psalm 44:25 and Psalm 89:48 and Psalm 33:19 & 20.

However, God can preserve your soul from the second death - Psalm 121:7 < But this verse is talking about putting your trust in God to help you keep you from evil. "Preserving your soul from evil"

In Adam all die, including your soul, which needs to be redeemed from death = the grave. The sin of Adam , for we are appointed once to die. Both body and soul. The spirit of man goes back to the giver, which is God. But the soul goes to the grave, which will be redeemed at your resurrrection.

You're heeding a doctrine of men that is not written in God's Word. If you believe the soul dies along with the flesh at the first death, then that is to infer the "second death" of the lake of fire event also happens at flesh death, for everyone! That's a doctrine of devils, and is not written in God's Word. It's those who can't get away from their carnal mind that deny Eccl.12:5-7 and 1 Cor.15 about the difference between a flesh body and the spiritual body image of the heavenly. When you die and your flesh is buried, you're gonna' find yourself either in hell or on the other side of the great gulf with the rest of the saints. It's your choice.

Hi Veteran

What gets you into trouble is your infering. You assume one thing, then another, then reply to the poster as if they believe a certain way, and then you declare their beliefs doctrines of devils.

First, there is no such word as "hell". Next, the Word is very specific when it comes to the soul and what happens to the soul upon the death of the flesh. The soul sinneth and it dies. It can not get any simplier than this.

Next, some things are my choice , while others are not. None of us deserves eternal life. Yet, not by my choice, but because of the will of God, he has given us this free gift of eternal life.

No one is saved from dying ! Neither is your soul saved from dying ! But your soul is saved from eternal damnation. When your time of your resurrection occurs, your soul will be raised from the dead. And not until !

We as Christians are his sheep, and we heed the calling of our Lord because of this. This again is not my choice, but his choice. I am thankful, and grateful. However, this in no way makes me the one responsible. I accept, acknowledge, and I am very humbled.

Accepting the fact, that when we die, our soul also dies, is a no brainer. Our faith is based upon the fact, that we will be raised from the dead. Our dead soul will be raised on that day. You soul does not go into a pickle jar. It dies , when you die !!

 

[JudaicChristian]

Haven't read everyone's posts yet, but my conception of the "after life" has always been: when the righteous die they go to paradise (remember Christ's words on the cross to one of the thieves). However, when they are resurrected they shall receive a new body and dwell with God for eternity in a new creation (new heaven and earth). The wicked shall be resurrected and destroyed by fire. Some, like the false prophet and Satan, will be tormented by this fire forever. Just my

KJV: 23:43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. The comma is in the wrong place. Here is the correct translation: And Yahshua said to him, truly I say to you this day, you will be with me in paradise.