The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

[Free]

Luk 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran. If we start withe the premise that man's soul is immortal, a number of questions need to be answered.
1. If there is the hades (hell) as described in the Luke 16 account, then why did't God warn Adam and Eve that they would not only "physically die", but their souls would be in new bodies in some part of "hades": either the painful side or the pleasant side. And, it must be dark, except for the "flames of the fire." And, of course, there is no bosom of Abraham to rest on, for Abraham was not even born (or died).
So, SHAME ON GOD for not telling Adam and Eve the consequences of sin beyond "physical death." They could have warned Cain, the first murderer. And why did'nt God warn Cain so that he could warn all his offspring?

That's your... reasoning, and it's outside of what's written in God's Word. Our Lord Jesus gave the specific objects of hell with a great gulf border of separation between it and where Lazaraus was taken. Lazarus and the rich man may have been figurative, but those objects our Lord gave in that were not. And He would not mislead us with revealing that, not even within a figurative story. We can only assume that was the same paradise where our Lord Jesus promised the malefactor would be with Him on the day of their crucifixion. The souls of dead saints under God's altar of Rev.6 also points to that place, even though it is not defined there for us.

What God revealed to Adam about flesh death is very limited compared to how much more is revealed later in the rest of God's Word. I don't think you intend to throw away the rest of The Bible to pose that one argument about death using just the Book of Genesis do you? All the Scriptures must agree with each other.

2. Again, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the literal truth, that man's soul is a separate entity that cannot die, then again, SHAME ON GOD for guiding Moses and the Prophets to write in so many places that man is a living soul and his soul can DIE when he dies, thus telling us something false.

That's simply your 'take' based on a tradition of men of those who believe we literally go into the grave with our casket at flesh death; and the tradition of men that there is no difference between flesh and spirit.

3. And SHAME ON LAZARUS for not proclaiming he was with Father Abraham in heavenly bliss. Then, surely he must have complained when he was brought back to life on the earth; and why didn't he warn others of all the fires of torment in the "other side of hades" prepared for all evil doers, such as those being rich and not having sympaty on a poor beggar?

You're confusing two different Lazarus' mentioned in The Bible. The Lazarus of Luke 16 was not the same Lazarus of Bethany which Jesus raised from the dead per John 11.

4. With myriads of human souls suffering all these years, from Adam on, without even being judged, how unfair God is, if the above premise is true.
We know that all those who haven't been resurrected (vivified) will be resurrected to stand before Jesus on His Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) to be judged for their deeds. Can you imagine how grateful those who have been in torment in hades (hell) will be, just to be standing with many others out of the flames?

Again, those feelings are merely your own supposition. Just as there are prison houses for the wicked here on earth, likewise there's a prison called the 'pit' and 'hell' in the heavenly, where the wicked go to after flesh death. In the Luke 16 example of the rich man in torment, the Greek word used is the idea of a 'touchstone', a stone used to measure the content of gold inside a piece of ore. The rich man didn't measure up. That was before Christ died on the cross, and was raised by The Father, and went to preach to the "spirits in prison" (1 Pet.3), and led many out as per the prophecy He would in Isaiah 42:7.

Just imagine our human courts doing something like that: torturing someone for, say, even 15 years, while keeping him alive, then bring him back to court and sentence him to say, 5 years.

What is worse, is man condemning a convicted murderer to the death penalty, and keeping him on death row for a lifetime instead executing him like God said to do. There have been cases of convicts that served a lot of time in prison, only to find out later through more investigation that he was not guilty.

5. And, of course, the Apostle Paul was wrong to write that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Surely, he misinterpreted what the Spirit of Truth would have him pen. Again, if we hold as truth what he wrote, then God is evidently misleading us.

What is a shame, is how you don't want to recognize there are two types of death taught in God's Word, one for the flesh body, and another with the casting of body and soul into the lake of fire, called the "second death", which is a one time event at the very end... of Christ's future thousand years reign.

Obviously then, a soul is not immortal if it is still subject to the "second death" of being cast in the "lake of fire".

Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
(KJV)

 

[Free]

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

 

[Mohrb]

Just wanted to pop in to compliment the original poster for his very well researched and presented post. I'll read through some of the more recent posts and may want to chime in more later.

God said "The wages of sin is death." Adam and Eve were never warned about any concept of "eternal hellfire" for sinning. Only death. Non-existence. Nothing more or less.

Yes, there's a parable about Lazarus and the rich man... but it's a parable. People don't believe that we're literally faced with a choice between eating at an actual table of God vs. an actual table of demons.

 

[Free]

God said "The wages of sin is death." Adam and Eve were never warned about any concept of "eternal hellfire" for sinning. Only death. Non-existence. Nothing more or less.

That Adam and Eve weren't "warned about any concept of "eternal hellfire" for sinning" is irrelevant, especially since nothing was mentioned of hell at all nor that they would simply not exist.

Do you believe they had an immortal soul when they were first created and innocent?

 

[jasoncran]

mohrb, why would jesus speak more about "death" then the gift of eternal life in the gospels, if it was just the rotting of the corpse?

why describe poetically something is nothing but death, if its a parable then it like the others must have some meaning, ie the seed and the sower. Where the other parables take meaning from. Goof the first and the others wont be right either.

 

[jasoncran]

if the rich man and lazarus is a parable then what of heaven, as that is describe to a degree there.

hmm. if one is a parable (hell) and that what of the descriptions of heaven?

 

[ORwarriOR]

if the rich man and lazarus is a parable then what of heaven, as that is describe to a degree there.

hmm. if one is a parable (hell) and that what of the descriptions of heaven?

Heaven is what we get if we live by Christ's words and shape our world into the image of our inner kingdom.

 

[jasoncran]

if the rich man and lazarus is a parable then what of heaven, as that is describe to a degree there.

hmm. if one is a parable (hell) and that what of the descriptions of heaven?

Heaven is what we get if we live by Christ's words and shape our world into the image of our inner kingdom.

says who? if we take the idea of hell(to which the lord spoke MORE about then the heaven)
btw you err
mathew 5:5 the meek shall inherent the earth.
we dont stay in heaven forever. read the last book and learn.
wait, you preach an unbiblical social gospel.
while we should effect society it doenst take away from prophecy, we will be either killed by martydom. die naturally, or raptured out( i believe in this).

 

[Bick]

From Veteran:

QUOTE: Bick wrote:
Hi Veteran. If we start with the premise that man's soul is immortal, a number of questions need to be answered.
1. If there is the hades (hell) as described in the Luke 16 account, then why did't God warn Adam and Eve that they would not only "physically die", but their souls would be in new bodies in some part of "hades": either the painful side or the pleasant side. And, it must be dark, except for the "flames of the fire." And, of course, there is no bosom of Abraham to rest on, for Abraham was not even born (or died).
So, SHAME ON GOD for not telling Adam and Eve the consequences of sin beyond "physical death." They could have warned Cain, the first murderer. And why did'nt God warn Cain so that he could warn all his offspring? QUOTE.

VETERANS'S QUOTE:
That's your... reasoning, and it's outside of what's written in God's Word. Our Lord Jesus gave the specific objects of hell with a great gulf border of separation between it and where Lazaraus was taken. Lazarus and the rich man may have been figurative, but those objects our Lord gave in that were not. And He would not mislead us with revealing that, not even within a figurative story. We can only assume that was the same paradise where our Lord Jesus promised the malefactor would be with Him on the day of their crucifixion. The souls of dead saints under God's altar of Rev.6 also points to that place, even though it is not defined there for us.

What God revealed to Adam about flesh death is very limited compared to how much more is revealed later in the rest of God's Word. I don't think you intend to throw away the rest of The Bible to pose that one argument about death using just the Book of Genesis do you? All the Scriptures must agree with each other. QUOTE.

MY COMMENTS: The whole discussion is too long, so I'm commenting on each point.

Of course, I was speaking hypothetically concerning God's not warning Adam and Eve of their souls would be in torment in hell (Sheol--Heb.). Nothing is recorded that God told them that, for it isn't true.

My reasoning is that the Scriptures say that man is a living soul, that is, a living sentient being. He experiences life through his soul, his senses. When he dies he is a dead soul.
Man is called "a soul" many places in the Bible; and we use that experssion today. When he dies he is a dead soul.

If you know how to use a Concordance, look up these verses and you will find that "soul" is connected with blood:

Gen. 9:3 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you....but flesh with the life (soul) thereof, which is in the blood thereof, thou shalt not eat."
9:4 "But flesh with the life (soul) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat."
9:5 "And surely your blood of your lives (souls) will I require at the hand of every beast....and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life (soul) of man.

Lev. 17:11 "For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your soul."
17:14 "For the life (soul) of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life (soul) thereof..."

My conclusion: All creatures which have blood, move independently about, have feelings and instincts, who require air or breath to live, are SOUL creatures.

I list the above for maybe you have never read such passages. You will find that "life" is the word chosen by the translators for "nephesh"-Hebrew, which is "SOUL."

I believe it is your erronious reasoning to come up with "flesh death", which is outside of God's written word. Just as "immortal" soul is outside of God's true word.

As to the altar scene in Rev. 6, it is possible that John saw the blood of those slain, for "the soul of the flesh is in the blood." Their blood cried out to be avenged, just as Able's blood was crying out to God from the ground (see Gen. 4:10). Of course, this is figurative language.
At any rate, from the context, it looks forward to their resurrection, for they are given a white robe and told to rest a little longer.
Nowhere in the Scriptures are "souls" said to have a body that can wear a robe.

Again, the account of the rich man and Lazarus, the beggar:

Nowhere in the story does it say that it was the rich man's and Lazarus' souls that were alive after they died. Jesus addressed this story to the Pharisees who were lovers of money, and probably did little to help their poorer fellow Israelites. And other views of this parable are that the "dogs" (Gentiles) get nothing from the Pharisees who "have the truth of God."

If this story is meant to show how the "believers" will be rewarded and the "unbelievers" punished, than it fails. Nothing says that Lazarus was a righteous man, simply because he was a beggar. And, if this account is the criteria for rewards or punishment, then woe to the rich for they aren't going to make it to a place of reward.

And further, where was "Abraham's bosom" anyway? And could all the thousands of righteous Israelites who have died up to the time of the strory be in Abraham's bosom? Where were they when Lazarus was carried there by the angels?

You say we can only "assume" it was the same "paradise" promised to the malefactor on the cross.

I assume you are aware that the Greek manuscripts from which translations were made, were all capitals with no punctuation: i.e. no commas, no periods, no quotes, no question marks etc.

According to their doctrinal beliefs, the translators put the comma before "today" rather than after.
Why? Because from Agustine of Hippo on, the traditional view of man having an immortal soul, which came from the Greek philosophers and others, was believed as the truth---regardless of what Moses and the Prophets taught.

Look at the context. The malefactor must have believed that Jesus was the Messiah, for he asked

"Remember me Lord, when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42

Now I ask, when will Jesus come into his kingdom? Is it not when he, as the long awaited Messiah, comes to the earth in power and great glory to defeat his enemies and rescue his people, righteous Israel?

Jesus answered, "Verily I say to thee today, with me thou shalt be in the paradise." Literal version.

FYI, "paradise" is the English equivalent of the Greek word "paradeisos" meaning a garden or park.
It is an oriental word of Persian origin. The Septuagent translators used it of the garden of Eden and in a number of places where "garden" is the normal English rendering.

NOTICE: in the verse above, it is "the paradise", for the article "the" is in the originals.

In the Messianic Kingdom, the whole earth will be beautified, with Jerulsalem and the Promised Land especially. Here are some prophetic verses:

"The Lord will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her wastelands like the garden (paradise) of the Lord. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing." Isa. 51:3, NIV, parentheses mine.

"This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, 'This land that was laid waste has become like the garden (paradise) of Eden....' Ezek. 36:33-35, NIV, parentheses mine.

The Lord assured the malefactor that he would indeed be with Him in THE paradise, the beautiful gardens in the restored Jerusalem and all the Promised Land.

Just as Jesus foretold, He was in the tomb, "the heart of the earth", for three days and three nights.

 

[Hawkins]

Soul is a Jew concept upheld by those following the Oral Torah which is the Jews majority including the famous Pharisees. And souls stay in Sheol after leaving the physical body. That's why the 7 additional Jew scrolls categorized as the Catholic canon led to the later on purgatory concept. Similarly, the same concept exists in other Jew scrolls such as the famous book of Enoch.

Soul, Sheol/Hades, Helll and eternal hell fire were not new concepts to the Jews in Jesus time. That's why they were even used them in one of His parables. Parable is the use of simple known concepts and terms to illustrate a less obvious point of view.

Soul can also mean life, but they are not exchangable words, similarly sheol can also mean grave but again they are not exchangeable words or else grave will be used instead of the strange term sheol.

Holiwood is the name of a place, yet 'one goes to Holiwood' doesn't always mean that he really goes to the physcal place named Holiwood. If on the other you insist that Holiwood can only mean to be the name of a place but not other meanings, you are in mistake.

 

[veteran]

MY COMMENTS: The whole discussion is too long, so I'm commenting on each point.

Of course, I was speaking hypothetically concerning God's not warning Adam and Eve of their souls would be in torment in hell (Sheol--Heb.)

My reasoning is that the Scriptures say that man is a living soul, that is, a living sentient being. He experiences life through his soul, his senses. When he dies he is a dead soul.
Man is called "a soul" many places in the Bible; and we use that experssion today. When he dies he is a dead soul.

Look at what you just said though brother, "sentient being" and "senses", aren't those terms used for our flesh senses? Our flesh senses are a product of our flesh, sight, touch, taste, hearing, and smell, but with 'something' behind it that gives it that, i.e., God's breath of life.

When Paul remarked in Hebrews for us to be mindful to entertain strangers, because some have entertained angels unware, would that point to angels being able to touch, taste, see, hear, and smell like we do? If so, then what type of living beings are they, since they are not born in flesh as we, nor were they resurrected? Would they be 'soul-less' simply because they aren't born in flesh as we? Do they have the "breath of life" in them?

The likeness and form or shape of man actually comes from our Heavenly Father's Own Likeness or outward appearance. It is from the Heavenly. The image of man did not originate with flesh man Adam. The Pattern comes from the Heavenly, from our Heavenly Father (Gen.1:26-27). Would that require our Heavenly Father to have a flesh body too in order to have a Soul, simply because He also mentions His Own Soul in His Word, His Own Life or Breath?

If you know how to use a Concordance, look up these verses and you will find that "soul" is connected with blood:

Gen. 9:3 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you....but flesh with the life (soul) thereof, which is in the blood thereof, thou shalt not eat."
9:4 "But flesh with the life (soul) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat."
9:5 "And surely your blood of your lives (souls) will I require at the hand of every beast....and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life (soul) of man.

Lev. 17:11 "For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your soul."
17:14 "For the life (soul) of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life (soul) thereof..."

What God is really teaching there is that the "breath" is transferred in the blood. Yet the blood and the breath are separate things, even as science can attest, since when the Life leaves the blood, the flesh body dies.

God breathed the "breath of life" (neshamah) into Adam's nostrils, and by that "breath" Adam became "a living soul"(Gen.2:7). That "breath of life" was a separate part distinct from Adam's flesh that was formed out of earth matter.

Those verses you quote are really showing how the 'breath' or 'life' is a separate thing from the blood, and even different than flesh (earthy matter). This our Lord Jesus also showed in John 3 when He spoke of that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The "breath of life" from God is connected with the idea of spirit, the soul, not the flesh.

Like someone in an earlier post here hinted at, the pagans believed at death of the flesh the "life" or "soul" was absorbed back to a "universal Soul" concept, and lost its individualness or personality. The reason why that idea is not from God is because even after flesh death, God preserves our personality, otherwise we would no longer exist period. That pagan concept actually is a denial of the raising of the dead by God, the resurrection.

Apostle Paul also covered that pagan idea here...

1 Cor 15:16-19
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(KJV)

Simply, if the dead don't rise, then Christ is not risen, and those fallen asleep are gone, perished, no longer existing. That's what it means to wrongly assign death to the soul at flesh death.

 

[Mysteryman]

"nephesh" is translated both - "life" and "soul"

Along with these two words that were translated from this word "nephesh", the words - "person" and "heart" and "body" , as well as "dead (body)" Ref. Lev.19:28 and Lev. 21:1 and Lev. 22:4 and Numbers 5:2 and Numbers 6:11

The most pertinent is the word - "life"

Breath life keeps the body, and soul alive. When breath life ends, the body and the soul dies.

Life is in the blood, because of breath life. When breath life ends, then there is no life in the blood, and the body dies and goes back to dust. The soul/life ends, thus is dead. Death comes about because of sin. This is why God told Adam, that in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Disobedience unto God results in sin, and thus, all unrighteousness is sin.

The reason the soul/life is not immortal, is because immortality has not as of yet been given. Two resurrections need to take place first. Jesus Christ was the first fruit from the dead.

If someone teaches that the soul does not die, then they are saying that Christ did not die for our sins !

 

[Bick]

Hi Veteran. If we start withe the premise that man's soul is immortal, a number of questions need to be answered.
1. If there is the hades (hell) as described in the Luke 16 account, then why did't God warn Adam and Eve that they would not only "physically die", but their souls would be in new bodies in some part of "hades": either the painful side or the pleasant side. And, it must be dark, except for the "flames of the fire." And, of course, there is no bosom of Abraham to rest on, for Abraham was not even born (or died).
So, SHAME ON GOD for not telling Adam and Eve the consequences of sin beyond "physical death." They could have warned Cain, the first murderer. And why did'nt God warn Cain so that he could warn all his offspring?

VETERAN'S QUOTE:
That's your... reasoning, and it's outside of what's written in God's Word. Our Lord Jesus gave the specific objects of hell with a great gulf border of separation between it and where Lazaraus was taken. Lazarus and the rich man may have been figurative, but those objects our Lord gave in that were not. And He would not mislead us with revealing that, not even within a figurative story. We can only assume that was the same paradise where our Lord Jesus promised the malefactor would be with Him on the day of their crucifixion. The souls of dead saints under God's altar of Rev.6 also points to that place, even though it is not defined there for us.
What God revealed to Adam about flesh death is very limited compared to how much more is revealed later in the rest of God's Word. I don't think you intend to throw away the rest of The Bible to pose that one argument about death using just the Book of Genesis do you? All the Scriptures must agree with each other.

MY COMMENTS: Of course I asked a hypothetical question. Let me ask you, when was "hell" created? Can we know who's "soul" was the first to go there? Or is it all assumption?

In the rich man and Lazarus, the beggar, account, where does it say it is their souls that have bodies that can be tormented, or be in Abraham's bosom (what ever that is)?
And can we assume that all rich men who ignore beggars after death will suffer the same treatment?

My point is, if this account is to be taken as true doctrine, then how do we determine who is righteous, and who is not? In this story, Jesus only says the rich man ate well and ignored the beggar. The rich man was condemned and the poor beggar was rewarded. Nothing said of their faith, or lack of faith, in God. So, pity the rich in this world for they are in trouble; and help the poor and homeless, for we don't want to wind up like the rich man. Is that too far fetched? What is the truth?

2. Again, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the literal truth, that man's soul is a separate entity that cannot die, then again, SHAME ON GOD for guiding Moses and the Prophets to write in so many places that man is a living soul and his soul can DIE when he dies, thus telling us something false.

VETERAN'S QUOTE:
That's simply your 'take' based on a tradition of men of those who believe we literally go into the grave with our casket at flesh death; and the tradition of men that there is no difference between flesh and spirit.

MY COMMENTS: NO! it is based on the teachings of Moses and the Prophets!

3. And SHAME ON LAZARUS for not proclaiming he was with Father Abraham in heavenly bliss. Then, surely he must have complained when he was brought back to life on the earth; and why didn't he warn others of all the fires of torment in the "other side of hades" prepared for all evil doers, such as those being rich and not having sympaty on a poor beggar?

VETERAN"S QUOTE:
You're confusing two different Lazarus' mentioned in The Bible. The Lazarus of Luke 16 was not the same Lazarus of Bethany which Jesus raised from the dead per John 11.

MY COMMENTS: OF COURSE NOT! I'm merely asking the question, if the Lazarus Jesus raised from the dead after four days, was "in Abraham's bosom", why wouldn't he have told everyone?

More later.

 

[Bick]

Veteran's quote:
Look at what you just said though brother, "sentient being" and "senses", aren't those terms used for our flesh senses? Our flesh senses are a product of our flesh, sight, touch, taste, hearing, and smell, but with 'something' behind it that gives it that, i.e., God's breath of life.

MY COMMENTS: You may call them "flesh senses", but the Inspired Scriptures use "soul."

May I ask, have you, with the help of a complete Bible concordance, looked up a number of the occurrences where "soul" (nephesh) is used to see how God inspired the writers of the OT books?

You will find that the connection of Soul with the senses is evidenced. For instance:
"My soul is weary of my life: I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul." Job 10:1, AV.
The taste is certainly intended in these scriptures:
"Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatever thy soul lusteth after..."
Deut. 12:15, AV.
"...thou shalt say, 'I will eat flesh', because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, what ever thy soul lusteth after." Deut. 12:20, AV.

And there are many, many scriptures which relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the SOUL.