The Final Authority

[Orthodoxy]

"Tell it to the Church" Jesus 33 ad.

The Church is the corporate body of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23-25,32; Colossians 1:18). The true believers that have all things in common (Acts 2:44, Acts 4:32), holding fast to the traditions taught by Jesus given to the Apostles (John 17:20-22, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6) and delievered unto the saints (Jude 3), corporately under the guidance and leadership of the One Holy Spirit (John 14:20, John 16:15, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 2:8, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27) the Church has its being and thrives throughout space and time without end.

The One Church is the One Body of Jesus Christ in Heaven and on the Earth (John 3:13, Acts 9:4-5, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 3:10, 14-15, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 3:15) that carries out the One Baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5) that results in the One Faith (Ephesians 4:5) possessing the One Mind (Romans 12:16, 15:6; 2 Corinthians 13:11, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 2:2, 1 Peter 3:8), with the One Heart (Acts 2:46, Acts 4:32) and the One Soul (Acts 4:32) functions in One Accord (Acts 1:14, Acts 2:1, Acts 2:46, Acts 4:24, Acts 15:25, Philippians 2:2) through the One Judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10) confessing with One Mouth (Romans 15:6) the One Hope (Ephesians 4:4) found in the One Doctrine of Jesus Christ (Titus 2:10, 2 John 1:9) by the One Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 2:8, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27) throughout space and time.

This is the Holy Orthodox Church.

This is NOT the Roman Catholic Church for they changed the "faith delievered with their 1054 ad creed.

This is NOT protestant reformtionalism that is duped by rome in the confession of their creed which in turn calls Jesus a failure. The heterodox belief that has many faiths, many paths, many doctrines, many minds, many baptisms, many mouths, many judgments and many hopes in many jesus' trying to unite in chaos, doctrinal envy, divisional strife and pride. A heterodox religion that accepts homosexuality, the destruction of the innocent and is all inclusive to the extent witches can claim they "believe" and it must be true or one is not "loving".

On a personal note:

After 5 long years of intense study of the Orthodox Faith I found there to be no other choice. The heterodox world is infected with a ecumenical cancer that is fatal. I never knew who I was worshipping with in the protestant world. I am commanded to worship with like minded christians, not every heathen that breathes the name of Jesus Christ. If I wanted to be called a "christian" I had to be orthodox or I was nothing more than a heathen trying to act like a christian. I was honest with myself after investigating the Orthodox faith and its claims and found "my jesus" wanting, seriously wanting. I was violating 2 Thess 2 and Romans 1 in the "christianity" I was walking in main stream protestant christianity. I read the bible for 33 years and by doing so created in my image and likeness a jesus that would be molded to my prayers and manipulations. You have your jesus and I have mine is the cry of the protestant "cant we all just get along?" Sorry, Rodneykingism is not christianity. This is exactly what the heterodox faith does creates a jesus in each mans mind, place this image on the throne of our hearts and worship him all the time claiming he is God! It was rather humbling to have to flame broil my jesus but that is what he was, a mere burgerkingjesus of my own making, a misrepresentation.

Compare your understanding of Jesus Christ to the Orthodox understanding of Jesus Christ and you will see that true Christians always ask themselves "is this what has always been taught by the Church?"

Historically the heterodox faith has no foundation but what it gets from the Roman Catholic Church. The heterodox belief systems are based on the Roman Catholic model. The non denominational church of 5000 I attended as a protestant confessed the Roman Catholic Creed then told me I could remove from the creed certain points like "baptism for the remission of sins" if I wanted. If only a single man could change the US Constitution the way the Romans and Protestants change the confession of faith of the Church!

My position is the heterodox christian jesus (roman and protestant) is an imposter. Another Jesus.

Orthodoxy

 

[Free]

That's nice.

"Tell it to the Church" Jesus 33 ad.

And to what "Church" was Jesus speaking?

 

[Orthodoxy]

That's nice.

"Tell it to the Church" Jesus 33 ad.

And to what "Church" was Jesus speaking?

Did you read my post or did you stop when you saw the evil word "Church" come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ?

This is the Holy Orthodox Church.

History proves the claim of today's Orthodox Church.

Orthodoxy

 

[Free]

Did you read my post or did you stop when you saw the evil word "Church" come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ?

I skimmed; I neither stopped nor really kept going. My point is that the Church was not in existence at the time of Christ, so he could not have been speaking to the Church. And I never said "Church" was an evil word; you shouldn't assume.

History proves the claim of today's Orthodox Church.

And the RCC claims the same, yet you can't both be right.

 

[Klee shay]

When Christ died on the cross he became free...unto all that believe on him there is no defence for bondage which will hold - for Christ is free.

Free to love....free to forgive...free to save.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Did you read my post or did you stop when you saw the evil word "Church" come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ?

I skimmed; I neither stopped nor really kept going. My point is that the Church was not in existence at the time of Christ, so he could not have been speaking to the Church. And I never said "Church" was an evil word; you shouldn't assume.

History proves the claim of today's Orthodox Church.

And the RCC claims the same, yet you can't both be right.

I did not think you read it. I did not assume anything. I made a statement as to why you did not read it. I speculated from a position of experiance.

Do you rememeber Jesus Christ saying "do this in rememberance of me"? He told 12 men this and told them to continue this practice, that is not the Church? When did the Church start in your opinion?

How about in John 15:16 where Jesus states "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Ordination is not the "beginnings" of the Church? "Your fruit should remain". what about the "rapture"? the great escape the heterodox are all waiting for? Maybe the remaining fruits will not be heterodox? Why does the heterodox world think the fruit of Jesus Christ needs to be "reformed and revived"? Sounds like another "gates of hades will not prevail" theme to me.

The Church is eternal in nature. Are you saying there was a time when the "body of Jesus Christ, the Church" did not exist?

How about this one:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Who is the "you" in this verse? 12 men, the Church, in which the "comforter will come" to "lead and guide" the Church into all truth. This was spoken by Jesus to the community of "believer" at that time, The Church.

One more witness to my claim the Church is the final authority:

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

As the Father sent Jesus Christ into the world even so has Jesus Christ sent the Aposltes "the Church" into the world in the same exact manner as the Father send Jesus Christ, even with the authority to forgive sin. The Church is the final authority and carries with that authority the right to forgive sins. One's sins cannot be forgiven unless one goes through the authority of the Church to forgive those sins.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

When Christ died on the cross he became free...unto all that believe on him there is no defence for bondage which will hold - for Christ is free.

Free to love....free to forgive...free to save.

"All that Believe" what "on Him". Define "believe" please.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

And the RCC claims the same, yet you can't both be right.

I agree. God cannot exist in two paradigms. The Church surely worships the one true God.

Which means either:

the "Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father" (Orthodox)

or

the "Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son" (Roman Catholic and most main line protestant denominations ie Luthern, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc).

You tell me from the Holy Scripture who possess the "correct" "belief"?

Orthodoxy

 

[stray bullet]

And the RCC claims the same, yet you can't both be right.

I agree. God cannot exist in two paradigms. The Church surely worships the one true God.

Which means either:

the "Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father" (Orthodox)

or

the "Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son" (Roman Catholic and most main line protestant denominations ie Luthern, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc).

You tell me from the Holy Scripture who possess the "correct" "belief"?

Orthodoxy

Did Jesus not gave into the will of God by submitting to His will that He die, from which the Holy Spirit came forth. One could just as well argue the Nicene Creed is a corrupted Apostle's Creed.


There is only one Church according to the bible. We see clearly in Matthew 16 that Christ's Church rests upon a foundation and that foundation is Peter. There is only one Church whose foundation is Peter. The foundation of the Orhtodox church is on Saint Andrew, not Saint Peter.


The Pope is the head of all Churches:
"Paschasinus, the most reverend bishop and legate of the Apostolic See, stood up in the midst with his most reverend colleagues and said: We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city, which is the head of all the churches"

The Pope is the only man that can be infallible in his decrees, for not even an infallible ecumenical council could go against them:
"Paschasinus the most reverend bishop, holding the place of the Apostolic See, said: We cannot go counter to the decrees of the most blessed and apostolic bishop ["Pope" for "bishop" in the Latin], who governs the Apostolic See, nor against the ecclesiastical canons nor the patristic traditions."

The Pope is the foundation of the Church:
" Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith"

--Council of Chalcedon, Sessions I, I and III, respectively.

 

[stray bullet]

"Tell it to the Church" Jesus 33 ad.

The Church is the corporate body of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23-25,32; Colossians 1:18). The true believers that have all things in common (Acts 2:44, Acts 4:32), holding fast to the traditions taught by Jesus given to the Apostles (John 17:20-22, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6) and delievered unto the saints (Jude 3), corporately under the guidance and leadership of the One Holy Spirit (John 14:20, John 16:15, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 2:8, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27) the Church has its being and thrives throughout space and time without end.

The One Church is the One Body of Jesus Christ in Heaven and on the Earth (John 3:13, Acts 9:4-5, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 3:10, 14-15, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 3:15) that carries out the One Baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5) that results in the One Faith (Ephesians 4:5) possessing the One Mind (Romans 12:16, 15:6; 2 Corinthians 13:11, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 2:2, 1 Peter 3:8), with the One Heart (Acts 2:46, Acts 4:32) and the One Soul (Acts 4:32) functions in One Accord (Acts 1:14, Acts 2:1, Acts 2:46, Acts 4:24, Acts 15:25, Philippians 2:2) through the One Judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10) confessing with One Mouth (Romans 15:6) the One Hope (Ephesians 4:4) found in the One Doctrine of Jesus Christ (Titus 2:10, 2 John 1:9) by the One Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 2:8, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27) throughout space and time.

This is the Holy Orthodox Church.

This is NOT the Roman Catholic Church for they changed the "faith delievered with their 1054 ad creed.

This is NOT protestant reformtionalism that is duped by rome in the confession of their creed which in turn calls Jesus a failure. The heterodox belief that has many faiths, many paths, many doctrines, many minds, many baptisms, many mouths, many judgments and many hopes in many jesus' trying to unite in chaos, doctrinal envy, divisional strife and pride. A heterodox religion that accepts homosexuality, the destruction of the innocent and is all inclusive to the extent witches can claim they "believe" and it must be true or one is not "loving".

On a personal note:

After 5 long years of intense study of the Orthodox Faith I found there to be no other choice. The heterodox world is infected with a ecumenical cancer that is fatal. I never knew who I was worshipping with in the protestant world. I am commanded to worship with like minded christians, not every heathen that breathes the name of Jesus Christ. If I wanted to be called a "christian" I had to be orthodox or I was nothing more than a heathen trying to act like a christian. I was honest with myself after investigating the Orthodox faith and its claims and found "my jesus" wanting, seriously wanting. I was violating 2 Thess 2 and Romans 1 in the "christianity" I was walking in main stream protestant christianity. I read the bible for 33 years and by doing so created in my image and likeness a jesus that would be molded to my prayers and manipulations. You have your jesus and I have mine is the cry of the protestant "cant we all just get along?" Sorry, Rodneykingism is not christianity. This is exactly what the heterodox faith does creates a jesus in each mans mind, place this image on the throne of our hearts and worship him all the time claiming he is God! It was rather humbling to have to flame broil my jesus but that is what he was, a mere burgerkingjesus of my own making, a misrepresentation.

Compare your understanding of Jesus Christ to the Orthodox understanding of Jesus Christ and you will see that true Christians always ask themselves "is this what has always been taught by the Church?"

Historically the heterodox faith has no foundation but what it gets from the Roman Catholic Church. The heterodox belief systems are based on the Roman Catholic model. The non denominational church of 5000 I attended as a protestant confessed the Roman Catholic Creed then told me I could remove from the creed certain points like "baptism for the remission of sins" if I wanted. If only a single man could change the US Constitution the way the Romans and Protestants change the confession of faith of the Church!

My position is the heterodox christian jesus (roman and protestant) is an imposter. Another Jesus.

Orthodoxy

I too, was brought out of Protestantism. Although it was not after study, it was a sense of "follow me". It is not up to me to discern what is and isn't truth. I heard the truths of the Catholic Church and knew and believed in them.

The Orthodox Church, although having apostolic succession, has broken from the foundation of the Church and drifts. It drifts from the Traditions of the early Church and what was believed once by those in the east:

"Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' "

"For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven."

"Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly."

"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the foremost of the Apostles and the key-bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the name of Christ."

- St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)

"Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church"

"Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy."

-St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (638)

"Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord."

"Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe."

Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)

(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)

In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5).

"And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world."

- St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (387)

"Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, and the one set over (or chief of) the Apostles. Art not thou he that didst say, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'? Thou Bar-Jonas (son of the dove) hast thou seen so many miracles, and art thou still but Simon (a hearer)? He appointed thee the key-bearer of Heaven, and has though not yet layed aside thy fisherman's clothing?" - St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople (434)

"The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren." - John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)

"Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles." - St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)

 

[Orthodoxy]

"Tell it to the Church" Jesus 33 ad.

The Church is the corporate body of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:23-25,32; Colossians 1:18). The true believers that have all things in common (Acts 2:44, Acts 4:32), holding fast to the traditions taught by Jesus given to the Apostles (John 17:20-22, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6) and delievered unto the saints (Jude 3), corporately under the guidance and leadership of the One Holy Spirit (John 14:20, John 16:15, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 2:8, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27) the Church has its being and thrives throughout space and time without end.

The One Church is the One Body of Jesus Christ in Heaven and on the Earth (John 3:13, Acts 9:4-5, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 3:10, 14-15, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 3:15) that carries out the One Baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5) that results in the One Faith (Ephesians 4:5) possessing the One Mind (Romans 12:16, 15:6; 2 Corinthians 13:11, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 2:2, 1 Peter 3:8), with the One Heart (Acts 2:46, Acts 4:32) and the One Soul (Acts 4:32) functions in One Accord (Acts 1:14, Acts 2:1, Acts 2:46, Acts 4:24, Acts 15:25, Philippians 2:2) through the One Judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10) confessing with One Mouth (Romans 15:6) the One Hope (Ephesians 4:4) found in the One Doctrine of Jesus Christ (Titus 2:10, 2 John 1:9) by the One Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 2:8, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27) throughout space and time.

This is the Holy Orthodox Church.

This is NOT the Roman Catholic Church for they changed the "faith delievered with their 1054 ad creed.

This is NOT protestant reformtionalism that is duped by rome in the confession of their creed which in turn calls Jesus a failure. The heterodox belief that has many faiths, many paths, many doctrines, many minds, many baptisms, many mouths, many judgments and many hopes in many jesus' trying to unite in chaos, doctrinal envy, divisional strife and pride. A heterodox religion that accepts homosexuality, the destruction of the innocent and is all inclusive to the extent witches can claim they "believe" and it must be true or one is not "loving".

On a personal note:

After 5 long years of intense study of the Orthodox Faith I found there to be no other choice. The heterodox world is infected with a ecumenical cancer that is fatal. I never knew who I was worshipping with in the protestant world. I am commanded to worship with like minded christians, not every heathen that breathes the name of Jesus Christ. If I wanted to be called a "christian" I had to be orthodox or I was nothing more than a heathen trying to act like a christian. I was honest with myself after investigating the Orthodox faith and its claims and found "my jesus" wanting, seriously wanting. I was violating 2 Thess 2 and Romans 1 in the "christianity" I was walking in main stream protestant christianity. I read the bible for 33 years and by doing so created in my image and likeness a jesus that would be molded to my prayers and manipulations. You have your jesus and I have mine is the cry of the protestant "cant we all just get along?" Sorry, Rodneykingism is not christianity. This is exactly what the heterodox faith does creates a jesus in each mans mind, place this image on the throne of our hearts and worship him all the time claiming he is God! It was rather humbling to have to flame broil my jesus but that is what he was, a mere burgerkingjesus of my own making, a misrepresentation.

Compare your understanding of Jesus Christ to the Orthodox understanding of Jesus Christ and you will see that true Christians always ask themselves "is this what has always been taught by the Church?"

Historically the heterodox faith has no foundation but what it gets from the Roman Catholic Church. The heterodox belief systems are based on the Roman Catholic model. The non denominational church of 5000 I attended as a protestant confessed the Roman Catholic Creed then told me I could remove from the creed certain points like "baptism for the remission of sins" if I wanted. If only a single man could change the US Constitution the way the Romans and Protestants change the confession of faith of the Church!

My position is the heterodox christian jesus (roman and protestant) is an imposter. Another Jesus.

Orthodoxy

I too, was brought out of Protestantism. Although it was not after study, it was a sense of "follow me". It is not up to me to discern what is and isn't truth. I heard the truths of the Catholic Church and knew and believed in them.

The Orthodox Church, although having apostolic succession, has broken from the foundation of the Church and drifts. It drifts from the Traditions of the early Church and what was believed once by those in the east:

"Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' "

"For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven."

"Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly."

"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the foremost of the Apostles and the key-bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the name of Christ."

- St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)

"Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church"

"Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy."

-St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (638)

"Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord."

"Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe."

Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)

(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)

In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5).

"And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world."

- St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (387)

"Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, and the one set over (or chief of) the Apostles. Art not thou he that didst say, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'? Thou Bar-Jonas (son of the dove) hast thou seen so many miracles, and art thou still but Simon (a hearer)? He appointed thee the key-bearer of Heaven, and has though not yet layed aside thy fisherman's clothing?" - St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople (434)

"The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren." - John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)

"Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles." - St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)

"the Mouth of the disciples", "Mouth of the rest of the Apostles"

The Mouth of the Orthodox Church which included the Roman Bishop as chief said in 381 ad:

We believe in the Holy Spirit, The Lord, the Giver of Life. Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son, is worshipped and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.

The mouth of Peter without the Church said in 1054 ad:

The Roman Church believes in the Holy Spirit, The Lord, the Giver of Life. Who proceeds from the Father and the Son, Who together with the Father and the Son, is worshipped and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.

I will let the readers investigate the logic of your claim that the Orthodox Church changed the Creed in 1054 ad and fell away from the Roman Catholic Faith.

The fathers said nothing against Peter's see having preeminse within the context of the equal members of the other organized Churches throughout the known world at the time. Acts 1, 2 and 15 plainly shows Peter's role in the authoritative structure of the Church. Jesus said to 12 men " I chose you, I ordained you" John 15:16 not just Peter. Jesus said to all twelve "What sins ye remit are remitted and what sins ye retain are retained" in Matthew 18. Fact is "the Church" in Matthew 18 is to "INCLUDE" Peter. In the foot washing event Jesus tells all the Disiples that the leader would be the "servant of all" not "lord over all".

I think Peter needs to "eat from the sheet" again.

 

[Klee shay]

"All that Believe" what "on Him". Define "believe" please.

JOHN 20:29

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

What does a person have to see in order to believe and what does a person need not see, in order to believe also? Christ acknowledges belief as utmost and not so much the understanding of why we believe.

You ask me to justify belief. It is in Christ that I believe and he is justified of the Father. Believing on him is knowing he was the son of God, crucified for our sins and resurrected to the right hand side of God.

 

[Orthodoxy]

"All that Believe" what "on Him". Define "believe" please.

JOHN 20:29

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

What does a person have to see in order to believe and what does a person need not see, in order to believe also? Christ acknowledges belief as utmost and not so much the understanding of why we believe.

You ask me to justify belief. It is in Christ that I believe and he is justified of the Father. Believing on him is knowing he was the son of God, crucified for our sins and resurrected to the right hand side of God.

I did not ask you to justify your belief at all. The question I have for all "believers" is what does "the Church" everyone claims membership in believe about the person of Jesus Christ that identifies Him as the Savior that will save "the Church".

Example. Harry on the board is a modelist that believes the Son of God is the Father in human flesh.

The Church believes the Son of God is Jesus Christ and the Father of the Son of God is the Father.

Another example:

An Arian will tell me "there was a time when Jesus Christ was not", in other words He is a created being of God.

The Church has always believed in One Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man.

He came down from heaven ie He is not a creation.

So what do "believers" believe about Jesus Christ and who He is that makes them a christian? What as I have been called on this board makes a person an apostate or a non believer altogther?

The question is not why do believer's believe? The question is what do believer's believe?

Orthodoxy

 

[Aslan]

Can I go to heaven if I am not part of the Orthodox Church?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Can I go to heaven if I am not part of the Orthodox Church?

That is not for the Orthodox Church to answer. But why do you ask?

 

[Aslan]

Can I go to heaven if I am not part of the Orthodox Church?

That is not for the Orthodox Church to answer. But why do you ask?

It sounded like Orthodoxy believed this but did not come out and say it. I wanted clarification.

 

[Klee shay]

The question is not why do believer's believe? The question is what do believer's believe?

Why or what do you believe - the answer is still Jesus Christ. You can ask the same question a hundred different ways to get a slightly different slant every time...but every time the answer is still Jesus Christ.

A person who believes in Christ believes in "Christ" and...

knowing he was the son of God, crucified for our sins and resurrected to the right hand side of God.

 

[JM]

Can I go to heaven if I am not part of the Orthodox Church?

That is not for the Orthodox Church to answer. But why do you ask?

It sounded like Orthodoxy believed this but did not come out and say it. I wanted clarification.

That's exactly right, they do believe you have to be a member of THE Church (which is the Orthodox Church) to get to heaven.

j

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Can I go to heaven if I am not part of the Orthodox Church?

That is not for the Orthodox Church to answer. But why do you ask?

It sounded like Orthodoxy believed this but did not come out and say it. I wanted clarification.

That's exactly right, they do believe you have to be a member of THE Church (which is the Orthodox Church) to get to heaven.

j

Not so. From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the Americas official website:

Three views of non-Christian religions
An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths.[9] These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth.[10] The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one.[11]

The approach taken in this paper is to emphasize "the middle way," that of inclusivism. It seems clear that the way of exclusivism is properly rejected as a matter of Truth. At the other extreme, the thin ice of cultural pluralism is fraught with danger.

[10]Philip Sherrard, "Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition, Chapter Three,"Christianity and Other Sacred Traditions, Brookline MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press (1998) p. 54.

[11]Emmanuel Clapsis, "The Challenge of Contextual Theologies", The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 38, Nos. 1-4 (1993) pp. 74-75.

regarding those who call themselves "Christian," but are not members of the Orthodox Church, the following:

It is evident that many contemporary Orthodox theologians, although they have never surrendered the claim that the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, are in no haste to call other Christian churches and communions non‑churches, void of God's salvific presence and action. They recognize that God is not limited by the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Church in his work for the salvation of all. Other Christian churches, therefore, and even other religions[21] may embody his saving will to the extent that they share at least something of the nature and functions of the church of God. To qualify as a "church" in the full theological sense of the term, a community must be apostolic in its faith, sacraments and ministry. More specifically, it must subscribe to the Orthodox faith as defined in the Nicene‑Constantinopolitan Creed, it must administer the sacraments, and it must possess an apostolic ministry transmitted through uninterrupted apostolic succession. These criteria may be modified according to the attitudes and the theological sophistication that prevail at particular moments in the life of the Church. For example, on the basis of a more flexible view of apostolic succession, Orthodox and Catholic theologians have recently been taking a more positive attitude towards the ministries and the sacraments of Anglicans and Protestants.

Source

As we can clearly see, it is not as Jason has presented the facts. I know that Jason has studied Orthodoxy, but there is a world of difference between studying Orthodoxy and being Orthodox. We who are Eastern Orthodox are engaged in a very in-depth debate on this issue in our times. The Church applies Oeconimia to subjects of this gravity, just as we did to the Donatist issue (when those who had receanted their faith under persecution sought re-entry to communion. They were admitted, even though many necessary objections were intrioduced in the discussion.)

Please note that I have stated the position held by the jurisdiction in which I serve, as opposed to giving my opinion.

Reader Iakovos
Chicago Diocese
GOCA

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Sorry, duplicate post.