The first tenth ?

[Aslan]

Asian

Are you doubting that most churches spend most the money they get on the PLACE?

They have the building itself to pay for, rent mortgage what ever, and then there are the utilities and the upkeep, then the grounds and the parking areas, then the insurance and salaries of its employees, and on top of all that are the taxes of varous kinds.

The tithe is known to be for the building and then MAY BE they take up an offering after for giving, and that is typically much smaller.

With no facts to back up your claim, I am doubting that most churches spend most of the money on the building. Our church and many like mine do not spend most of the money on the building and administration. I will look at our church budget and see the real numbers.

Sorry, but just some common sence is all one needs to see this.

This does not help the discussion, It is up to you to back up your claims, Sorry if I just don't "see" your point. You may be right, but with no facts how do I know.

 

[Henry]

Cj

I am not here for finger pointing and judging, if you want to talk about the biblical issues great show me text and lets talk. But if you want to go about judging lutherens, baptist, me or who ever, you'll just have to do that alone.

Funny that you tell me to keep the word, and then argu with me for wanting to do just that?

Aslan

No facts, are you serous?

Well I am glad that you are going to look at you church records. But that still has nothing to do with the tithe, and if it is biblical or not. The fact still remains that the NT knows nothing of a church building or a tithe.

The better question to ask is, where did this buidling even come from if not the bible?

As for me backing up my claims, I have posted scripture in plenty to show my claims as to what the bible is teaching and that is ignored. But you want me to give you statistics?

Here is some back up for some of the things that I am trying to talk about here

1 Cor 14:26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, twoâ€â€or at the most threeâ€â€should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

Ok I say that the meeting is to be interactive and here the text says, that EVERYONE and TWO or THREE should speak. Sounds interactive to me. And notice that no one person is named as being the one person that brings what ever to the meeting, you can not find for example the pastor of worship, what we do find is that anyone can offer a song.

    29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
      As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


Again, here is the same interactive style of meeting. Two or three prophets, and you can all prophesy. And I want to point out somethinge very important, he says "As in all the congregations of the saints" this is refering to the woman thing (not going there) but this is not the first time that we see how Paul consistant in his teaching everywhere.

And what I find most interesting is the statement "And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop" and why? Becuase that is how everyone is instructed, the fact is that the bible teaches nothing about a single man as the teacher, but teaches that we learn by everyone taking a part.

I would also say that the first speaker is not even identified, could be anyone.

Do you really think any of this sounds like and trad church meeting? and can you say that these practice would work in large groups? NO and NO.

    36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

And if the understanding that Paul was consistant in his teachings every where, then this should be He tells us that this stuff is the command of God. Why walk away from that? If God commanded it, then should we not pay attention?

What you do not find, is any worship service, or any pastor, or any preacher and not a word about collecting the tithe. Not only are they missing here, but you find them no where in the NT.

So, I say the bible teaches interactive meetings are the commands of God, and here is my back up.

 

[cj]

Cj

I am not here for finger pointing and judging, if you want to talk about the biblical issues great show me text and lets talk. But if you want to go about judging lutherens, baptist, me or who ever, you'll just have to do that alone.

Funny that you tell me to keep the word, and then argu with me for wanting to do just that?

Henry, get off your silly high horse will you, I'm not judging anyone here.

But I am fully aware that this suggestion is the all-to-typical turn people take when they are unable to respond to something said.

I went back and reread what I wrote....... and there is nothing that judges anyone.

Understand this, pointing out a disparity in what people are saying when it comes to their speaking being in line with scripture.... is not the same as judging someone.

If I see someone rob another person, and when asked I tell them that what they did is against the law, this does not mean that I have judged them, for all I've done is point out the factual truth.

You use the term judge but I wonder if you really understand the true meaning of this word.

Anyway, as I said above, I am fully aware that when one does this it is usually because they are unable to properly respond to what was siad or written. Or in other words, the "judging" arguement is used to hide behind.

I presented many points in both of my response to your speaking,..... using scripture as reference.

Perhaps you could respond in kind.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Henry,

What does the NT say regarding how large a "house-church" gathering of the saints can get?

Ten saints? Fifty saints? Two hundred saints? A thousand saints?

Seriously, how many saints are, by that which is found in the NT, allowed to gather together in a "house-meeting" at any one time?

In love,
cj

 

[Aslan]

Aslan

No facts, are you serous?

Yes, point me to where you have laid out facts about how the average church spends its money.

Well I am glad that you are going to look at you church records. But that still has nothing to do with the tithe, and if it is biblical or not. The fact still remains that the NT knows nothing of a church building or a tithe.

As far as the tithe, I do not belive that it is mandatory, but since I have been tithing my relationship with God has changed. There is nothing wrong with tithing if it is for the right reasons. Paul said in Romans 14:13-23 (NIV):

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

As far as the tithe goes I think this scripture is speaking to that, If it increases my faith, then why should you say I am doing something wrong? I do not say that it is commanded by God anymore, but I do suggest it as a way of praising God.

As for me backing up my claims, I have posted scripture in plenty to show my claims as to what the bible is teaching and that is ignored. But you want me to give you statistics?

I have not ignored your posts, all I wanted was some statistics about how churcheds spend their money, you made the claim, you should back it up. The funny thing is you are most likely right.

 

[Henry]

What does the NT say regarding how large a "house-church" gathering of the saints can get?

Why does the house church have to be large, tha tis a traditional mind set that the success of any church has to do with its numbers. Jesus said where ever two or three are gathered.

To answer your question, simple as large as we can be and still practice the NT way of meeting together, when that becomes compromised it is time to give birth to another church.

Aslan

As far as the tithe, I do not belive that it is mandatory, but since I have been tithing my relationship with God has changed. There is nothing wrong with tithing if it is for the right reasons. Paul said in Romans 14:13-23 (NIV):

The right reason for the tithe?

Numbers 18:23 It is the Levites who are to do the work at the Tent of Meeting and bear the responsibility for offenses against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites. 24 Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: 'They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.'

Numbers 18: 20 The LORD said to Aaron, "You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites. 21 "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting. 22 From now on the Israelites must not go near the Tent of Meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die. 23 It is the Levites who are to do the work at the Tent of Meeting and bear the responsibility for offenses against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites.

The tithe as I have said to my witts end was to take care of the temple workers, or here call the tent. (remember the temple was tent) and notice that the nation was not aloud to go into it, otherwise they would die.

Today the church says that tithe is for the taking care of the church (buidling) and those who do the work. Well that problem is that the tithe which took care of the workers was for a place that only the workers could go into.

And that place is not valid any longer, since Jesus died the old temple is voided. The tithe is also made void along with it. Since the tithe was for it's support.

Hebrews 9:11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritanceâ€â€now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The temple was for the varous sin offerings on behalf of the people, but when Jesus came and shed his blood, he entered the temple NOT MAN MADE, and is there forever.

The old temple is no longer valid, and the new one is not made of man.

So the tithe that was dues is now also void.

If you want to give that is fine, but give from your heart and not out compulsion and do not call it a tithe, it isn't. And as I have said give to the true work of God:

matt 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

This is the true work of God caring for each other, not paying for man made structures and calling that the work of God. It is not.

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

Now, in light of the words of Jesus what are we to do with our money, do you understand that the sheeps and the goats are both christians, or they say they are anyways.

What are we to say to Jesus, " I wanted to give to my brother but the church said I must pay a tithe and if they have anything left, it is the pastors job to give it to someone in need, and that pastor is a man of need"

I say that paying a tithe to a church building is robbing God.

After all we are the living stones of the temple of God and if you desire to give to the church, then do as Jesus said feed, clothe and visit your brothers and sisters.

If you think that paying tithe to the church building has increased your relationship with God, take that same money and start using it to help other directly and see how much more you are going to be blessed by that true act of giving.

I agree that giving is a way of praising God, I can not stress enough that I am all for giving, but the church building the pastor and the tithe to support them is simply not biblical at all. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

 

[Aslan]

If you think that paying tithe to the church building has increased your relationship with God, take that same money and start using it to help other directly and see how much more you are going to be blessed by that true act of giving.

I am giving according to how God wants me to give. This is a true act of giving. I am giving the tithe because I love God and he is leading my family to do so.

The reason I tithe is that letting God have control of my money has been hard for me. I have trouble letting God control this part of my life. He has led me to tithe to trust him and show me that he will meet my needs even though I have doubt. I think that there are many christians that have the same problem. Tithing has helped me trust God more and has shown me the blessings of giving.

Do you think it is a sin to tithe?

Our church does much more with the money I give than what I could do myself. This is not to say I don't give to others in need above the tithe when I see people in need. I also give my time to the ministries of the church, this also is a true act of giving.

About the church building, as we all know we are the church, all the saints are the church, so why does it matter where we meet? The people in the NT churches did not have the Bible we do today, should we only use the Bible that they used? I am saying that you need do use discernment on where you meet with christians on a regular basis. It sounds like you have been blessed with the home church.

Remember that we are on the same side, we both worship Christ and we are both following his commands to spread the gospel.

 

[Henry]

Do you think it is a sin to tithe?[/qoute]

Did you look at the scripture that I posted about the tithe? It is simply not required any more, that is just a biblical fact.

[quote:ab898]Our church does much more with the money I give than what I could do myself.[/qoute]

You seem to think that if you are not giving a church building that you are alone in the effort, that is not at all true. You would be surprised at how many people are in your area that would love to gather their efforts with yours.

We do not pay a tithe to any group, yet we as a group have no problem getting it all together when there is a need.

[quote:ab898]About the church building, as we all know we are the church, all the saints are the church, so why does it matter where we meet?[/qoute]

That depends on if you care to obey God or not. And if it does not matter where you meet, why build a place specifally for meeting.

The fact is that God has given us instructions as to how we should meet together. I have shown this scripture and the fact is that these things can not be done in a church building, the church building prohibits our obediance.

[quote:ab898]The people in the NT churches did not have the Bible we do today, should we only use the Bible that they used?

[/quote:ab898][/quote:ab898][/quote:ab898]

What we you talking about, they certainly did have much and some all of the OT and the letter which we read where the same ones they read. The letters by the way that I am going to for church instruction.

So, today I am reading the same letters they did, only in a collected book form.

Next you will say we should wear sandles, we are not trying to clone them, we are trying the learn the princaple behind the practice.

You are right I have been blessed by house church, and anyone that gets into a house church and lives the biblical church life would also be blessed.

Why are we not talking about the scriptures?

 

[cj]

Why does the house church have to be large,....

See Henry, I never said a house-church has to be any size, big or small.

Yet you automatically think I did.

This shows that you yourself are guilty of doing what you accuse others of doing.... that being the having of a mindset pertaining to something.

The fact is, my intention was to find out your definition of the numerical limitations of a house-church.... and, even more important, as it deals with the topic of this thread, the administration of such groups, whether large or small.

This last point is something you actually touched on in your post just above.

....... that is a traditional mind set that the success of any church has to do with its numbers. Jesus said where ever two or three are gathered.

No Henry, as I said above, I was headed in a completely different direction than that you though I was going.

In fact, time and time again on these boards I have stated my position regarding God and numbers.

God is one Henry.... the best number in all creation.

To answer your question, simple as large as we can be and still practice the NT way of meeting together, when that becomes compromised it is time to give birth to another church.

And what your just declared is the need of administration.... and this need, in a practical way, finds and aspect of provision regarding this, in what is frequently referred to as tithing.


In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

Henry, you have been here long enough and know the rules. Heck, you have been warned enough about them and have been given more slack than some here. I always have given you the benefit of the doubt and have rarely come down on you because I understand your intentions. But... lol

... I have read cj's posts and he never said any of the things you accused him of saying. Please, lets not make assumptions here and put words in people's mouths... or posts. :-D

That last part goes out to all.

Vic

 

[Henry]

Vic

I have made my argument using the bible and what ever is going on with cj I am not sure, but never the less I have made an argument from the scripture and I would hope that would have caused a discussion about the scriptures in this matter.

Henry,

What does the NT say regarding how large a "house-church" gathering of the saints can get?

Ten saints? Fifty saints? Two hundred saints? A thousand saints?

Seriously, how many saints are, by that which is found in the NT, allowed to gather together in a "house-meeting" at any one time?

I was trying to answer this question. He asked how large does the NT a "House-church" .... ten, fifty, and so on... and the part about being allowed to gather got to me, since this is not a matter of permission.

So when I read hose large a house church can be, well I wonder why think large at all? So aI ask why does the house church have to be large? Given the question that I was asked I think this is a fair question to be sure.

The fact is, my intention was to find out your definition of the numerical limitations of a house-church.... and, even more important, as it deals with the topic of this thread, the administration of such groups, whether large or small.

I explained that the size of the house church is based on the ability of that group to honestly practice the values of the house church movement. And as for adminstration of such groups, there is no more needed then we might need as family get tother, which is essence is what we are doing.

And what your just declared is the need of administration.... and this need, in a practical way, finds and aspect of provision regarding this, in what is frequently referred to as tithing.

Who is putting words where, I in no way make any declared need of administration, there is nothing father from it. If we have grown beyond our ability to practice, we pray and the Lord will call on two or three of the men to go and plant another church. Hence we grow by multilplication and not by addition.

We do not need money to do this, we only need prayer and the lead of the Lord.

As for the tithe, I have made a biblical argument as to why it is no longer valid. No one has refuted that arguement with scripture, but attacked me with opion.

With all due respect you really do not know what we are about.

 

[cj]

Okay Henry, just so that you don't think I pull stuff out of the air.......

Why does the house church have to be large,..... that is a traditional mind set that the success of any church has to do with its numbers. Jesus said where ever two or three are gathered.

Please note the bolded words, as they represent the majority of your response to my question.

I just asked a question about the size of house-meetings Henry, you are the one who went into the "traditional mindset" suggestion.

Additionally, by asking how large I simply meant how much more than one.

To answer your question, simple as large as we can be and still practice the NT way of meeting together, when that becomes compromised it is time to give birth to another church.

And here in the bolded letters, whether you want to admit it or not, is not only effective administration, but even predetermined administration.

Whatever happened to the good-for-Jesus/God way of simply following the leading of the Spirit?

See Henry, you can use all your fancy words and phrases and biblical backing, but no matter how you meet, in million-people meeting halls or two people sheds, if you're not meeting on the right ground (a principle set by God from the very first book of the bible), then you're as off as any of the others.

You meet as a house-church because you have selected certain passages out of the bible and said "This is what the bible says."

But its not.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him do so in spirit and truth.

Paul was in Rome in prison, yet he was fully convinced that he was with a church hundreds of miles away. How so?

You meet not out of oneness with God, but out of a natural preference.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I have made my argument using the bible and what ever is going on with cj I am not sure, but never the less I have made an argument from the scripture and I would hope that would have caused a discussion about the scriptures in this matter.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where scripture says that to meet in a house is the proper way to meet?

So far you have not done this.

I was trying to answer this question. He asked how large does the NT a "House-church" .... ten, fifty, and so on... and the part about being allowed to gather got to me, since this is not a matter of permission.

Yet, you are the one who is making it a matter of permission by stating that this is the way scripture tells us to meet.

Right here you contradict yourself.

So when I read how large a house church can be, well I wondered why think large at all? So I ask why does the house church have to be large? Given the question that I was asked I think this is a fair question to be sure.

Two is double one, four double two..... large can mean anything more than one. But when someone is caught up in a concept, then this concept influences the way they think.

I explained that the size of the house church is based on the ability of that group to honestly practice the values of the house church movement. And as for adminstration of such groups, there is no more needed then we might need as family get tother, which is essence is what we are doing.

"no more needed...", yet, still, some administration is needed.

And if we were really honest, this "some" can actually be quite time consuming.

People fall away and need to be loved and cherished to build them back up. People have distractions and entanglements that keep them away from meetings, and thus require practicle help at times in order that the body does not suffer loss from their not being available to add their portion to the meeting.

And what of apostleship? Who remains in contact with the one who established the local church? How do you remain in the apostles teaching in a proper manner?

ANd the young ones; the babies, two-year olds, and teenagers..... how do you care for their needs?

All of this is a matter of administration.

Who is putting words where, I in no way make any declared need of administration, there is nothing father from it.

You contradict yourself.....

If we....

Who decides on whether you have an "if we" situation?

..... have grown beyond our ability to practice,

Who established what is proper practice?

.... we pray and the Lord will call on two or three of the men to go and plant another church.

Go where...... and plant how?

Hence we grow by multilplication and not by addition.

Yet scripture says....

Acts 2:41, "Those then who received his word were baptized, and there were added on that day about three thousand souls."

Acts 2:47, "Praising God and having grace with all the people. And the Lord added together day by day those who were being saved."

Acts 5:14, "And believers were all the more being added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,"

Acts 11:24, "For he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a considerable number was added to the Lord."

So you say "by multiplication" and God was by addition.

Who should we trust?

We do not need money to do this, we only need prayer and the lead of the Lord.

This is not true....... who pays for the costs of the house, the food, the lights, the transportation to bring saints who have none? And on and on.

Practical living in this world is a part of our daily walk, and practical living requires money. Even Jesus knew this.

As for the tithe, I have made a biblical argument as to why it is no longer valid. No one has refuted that arguement with scripture, but attacked me with opion.

No, you've made a biblical argument as to why the law that dealt with the Jewish manner of tithing is no longer valid... and I have no problem with that. But the matter of giving, which is really the bottowline principle of what we call tithing, is still very valid in our walk with God.

See, tithing was a matter of bring glory to God, and saved believers are today becoming God's glory. So tell me, how do you think the two are just one matter?

With all due respect you really do not know what we are about.

Perhaps..... but I can read what you write here on these forums.

In love,
cj

 

[Soma-Sight]

If you dont pay tithe there is a high percent chance that you are going tp hell.......

Being born again means you have a desire to give at least 10 percent to God and His Creation.....

I give around 10 percent (or more) to people that need it and find it blesses my relationship with God and others.

I believe if you hoard money you are going to face Asmodeus in the hellfire....... Not recommended by the FDA.

http://www.enworld.org/cc/images/monsters/asmodeus.jpg

 

[Soma-Sight]

If you dont pay tithe there is a high percent chance that you are going tp hell.......

Being born again means you have a desire to give at least 10 percent to God and His Creation.....

I give around 10 percent (or more) to people that need it and find it blesses my relationship with God and others.

I believe if you hoard money you are going to face Asmodeus in the hellfire....... Not recommended by the FDA.

http://www.enworld.org/cc/images/monsters/asmodeus.jpg

 

[Henry]

Soma

Being born again, means that we are going to heaven. And when one is born he is a baby, and will need to grow. You can not judge ones faith, and we can not say who is going to hell merely based on their desire or not to give.

That is just where they are.

But I agree that giving is something that would come naturaly and in time to anyone that has been born again, I would just caution that you are not make judgements so fast about anyones salvation on such a thing.

After all we are not saved by the works that we do, but by the grace of God.

So give, and please give to the needs of poeple, not a place. But in doing so do not judge those who do not, lest your giving is in vane.