The Flesh

Beetow

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2024
Messages
589
Reaction score
51
.
The flesh is translated from a Greek word that basically pertains to the meaty parts
of a creature's body; which of course includes its brain and central nervous system.
But that's only half the story.

The flesh also pertains to the core of a creature's being, i.e. it's essential nature. In
mankind's case, that would be human nature-- defined by Webster's, in so many
words, as the fundamental dispositions, traits, and characteristics of human life.

In the beginning, God was satisfied with the quality of human nature just as it was,
and graded it not just good, but very good, i.e. excellent. (Gen 1:31)

But then came the forbidden fruit incident whereby mankind became a tin God.
(Gen 3:22) Consequently the fundamental dispositions, traits, and characteristics of
human life lost their original quality and human nature became decadent.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
(Jer 17:9)
_
 
.
The flesh is translated from a Greek word that basically pertains to the meaty parts
of a creature's body; which of course includes its brain and central nervous system.
But that's only half the story.

The flesh also pertains to the core of a creature's being, i.e. it's essential nature. In
mankind's case, that would be human nature-- defined by Webster's, in so many
words, as the fundamental dispositions, traits, and characteristics of human life.

In the beginning, God was satisfied with the quality of human nature just as it was,
and graded it not just good, but very good, i.e. excellent. (Gen 1:31)

But then came the forbidden fruit incident whereby mankind became a tin God.
(Gen 3:22) Consequently the fundamental dispositions, traits, and characteristics of
human life lost their original quality and human nature became decadent.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
(Jer 17:9)
_
The obvious follow-on is our need to be born again. By the first birth we partake of human nature, but by the second birth we "become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pe 1:4). Jesus differentiated between these two natures when He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6).
 
The obvious follow-on is our need to be born again. By the first birth we partake of human
nature, but by the second birth we "become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pe 1:4). Jesus
differentiated between these two natures when He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6).

Several years ago, I raised my hand in class and asked a substitute Sunday school
teacher about Joseph, to wit: Do you think Joseph was born again?

Well; the substitute absolutely choked and the class went into an uproar. So I
calmly explained that Jesus said, in so many words, that nobody is getting into the
kingdom of God except they first undergo that birth he spoke of in the third chapter
of John. To my understanding, Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus granted neither
exception and nor exemption; not even for all those luminaries back in the old
testament. Everybody, from first to last, has a tin God's nature, even them, and
it requires attention.

* I didn't find out about John 3:1-8 till I was twenty-four years old; and let me tell
you I was immensely relieved because I instinctively knew, without anybody having
to tell me, there was no possible way I was ever going to qualify for heaven in my
condition. I had a natural-born tendency for dishonesty, prejudice, bias, dark moods,
misogyny, animal cruelty, arson, theft, trespassing, and vandalism. In other words:
me and my predilections were just plain unacceptable in any culture; and I knew it.

To this day I am thoroughly amazed at God's incredible generosity beginning with
His son's crucifixion so He could offer anyone who wants it, a free of charge, no
strings attached, rescue from retribution.
_
 
Last edited:
Several years ago, I raised my hand in class and asked a substitute Sunday school
teacher about Joseph, to wit: Do you think Joseph was born again?

Well; the substitute absolutely choked and the class went into an uproar. So I
calmly explained that Jesus said, in so many words, that nobody is getting into the
kingdom of God except they first undergo that birth he spoke of in the third chapter
of John. To my understanding, Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus granted neither
exception and nor exemption; not even for all those luminaries back in the old
testament. Everybody, from first to last, has a tin God's nature, even them, and
it requires attention.

* I didn't find out about John 3:1-8 till I was twenty-four years old; and let me tell
you I was immensely relieved because I instinctively knew, without anybody having
to tell me, there was no possible way I was ever going to qualify for heaven in my
condition. I had a natural-born tendency for dishonesty, prejudice, bias, dark moods,
misogyny, animal cruelty, arson, theft, trespassing, and vandalism. In other words:
me and my predilections were just plain unacceptable in any culture; and I knew it.

To this day I am thoroughly amazed at God's incredible generosity beginning with
His son's crucifixion so He could offer anyone who wants it, a free of charge, no
strings attached, rescue from retribution.
_
I don't know what a "tin god" is, but it is an interesting term.
 
.
The flesh is translated from a Greek word that basically pertains to the meaty parts
of a creature's body; which of course includes its brain and central nervous system.
But that's only half the story.

The flesh also pertains to the core of a creature's being, i.e. it's essential nature. In
mankind's case, that would be human nature-- defined by Webster's, in so many
words, as the fundamental dispositions, traits, and characteristics of human life.
I agree, thus prompting me to ask "which flesh" is being discussed, in past posts.
Is it the skin and bones of a man?
Or, is it the worldly oriented mind of a man ?
It seems a few blame the skin and bones for sin in their vessel, asserting that they can never be totally cleansed of sin. (Even by the blood of Christ, apparently.)
In the beginning, God was satisfied with the quality of human nature just as it was,
and graded it not just good, but very good, i.e. excellent. (Gen 1:31)
But then came the forbidden fruit incident whereby mankind became a tin God.
(Gen 3:22) Consequently the fundamental dispositions, traits, and characteristics of
human life lost their original quality and human nature became decadent.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
(Jer 17:9)
Thank God for allowing us to destroy the old man, and become new creatures...eh ?
 
I don't know what a "tin god" is, but it is an interesting term.

According to Gen 3:22 the forbidden fruit incident started the Adams down a road
of no return, to wit: they became their own guiding light; which of course makes it
imperative that God's people study the Bible to find out what pleases Him and what
doesn't because their natural intuition is unreliable.
_
 
Last edited:
Thank God for allowing us to destroy the old man, and become new creatures...eh ?

Not only to destroy it, but to shuck it too.

Col 2:11 . . In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

When I finally get around to making my exit, I fully expect to do so 100% free of
human nature. I can't imagine what that will be like, but I sure do look forward to
it.
_
 
...which of course makes it imperative that God's people study the Bible to find out what pleases Him and what
doesn't...
In my study of the Bible, I have found many passages (see examples below) that teach us that we need to lean on God to tell us directly what pleases Him and what doesn't.

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths. (Pr 3:5–6)​

and,

13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. (Jn 16:13–15)​

and,

9 But as it is written:​
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,​
Nor have entered into the heart of man​
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”​
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.​
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Co 2:9–13)​

and,

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. (Jas 1:5–8)​
 
I have found many passages (see examples below) that teach us that we need to lean on God to
tell us directly what pleases Him and what doesn't.

If your examples mean what you say they mean, then I think we can take it that
everyone properly united with Christ is an inspired person which, if true, is a
tremendous advantage over rank and file pew warmers.
_
 
Last edited:
If your examples mean what you say they mean, then I think we can take it that
everyone properly united with Christ is an inspired person which, if true, is a
tremendous advantage over rank and file card-carrying Christians.
I take "properly" in the English sense of the word, lol, and I like it.

And I do believe that the Bible points us to an intimate personal relationship with the Creator of the universe, made possible only by His gracious decision to offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins, and made effective by Him when we first put our trust in Him and He comes to live in our hearts.

And I suppose it is possible that some people who self-identify as Christian are not "properly united with Christ", but that is not something I am fit to judge. I generally take peoples' profession of faith at face value, and I try to help them live a successful Christian life whenever I can.
 
Not only to destroy it, but to shuck it too.

Col 2:11 . . In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

When I finally get around to making my exit, I fully expect to do so 100% free of
human nature. I can't imagine what that will be like, but I sure do look forward to
it.
_
What are you waiting for ?
 
What are you waiting for ?

The information you seek is located in post No.7, to wit: Col 2:11 describes an
operation performed by the hand of God wherein the hand of man is given no role.

That is an extremely valuable operation because there are folks in this world with
some very disagreeable tendencies the likes of Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ed
Kemper etc. who would never be allowed to associate with God in their natural
condition. But with the normal core of their being removed, and replaced with the
divine nature spoken of by 2Pet 1:4, they'd be good to go.
_
 
Some good thoughts, Beetow.

On σαρξ, the important thing is how a general idea functions in each setting. Anthony Thiselton noted that Paul used it as a polymorphous. Douglas Moo noted five basic uses by Paul, including the most common on secular Greek of biological material covering animal bodies (1 Cor.15:39). You are right to see its extended meanings. From https://archive.org/details/the-wor...-bible-versions-2017-231024/page/154/mode/1up, [Paul used sarx 27 times in Romans, and means different things in different places. The TNIV used 28 different words or phrases to translate it, mostly sinful nature (over 30 times) and flesh (16 times) (Scorgie, Strauss, and Voth 2003:366). Sarx speaks of 1# the body’s covering (1 Cor.15:39); 2# the human body (2 Cor.7:1); 3# human beings (1 Cor.1:2-9); 4# human ethnicity (1 Cor.10:18); 5# human sinfulness (Gal.5:1-7). And when contrasting humanity to God, it might carry the idea of mortality. 1 Cor.5:5 speaks of sarx being destroyed—does this mean the mortification of flesh that monks whipped their backs to attain? The ESV and HCSB read flesh, the REB reads body, the NJB reads natural life, the TNIV (likewise the NLT) reads sinful nature with the alternatives flesh and body footnoted. Rm.11:14 causes particular problems for translating flesh—did Paul “move to jealousy his flesh”? If I told my GPs that I was moving to jealousy my own flesh, would they bind my body in a jacket? The KJV paraphrased this by reading “those who are my own flesh”, and the ESV, following the RSV, used “fellow Jews”. The TNIV and HCSB, “my own people”.[1] “Gentiles by birth” (NIV) interprets well what Eph.2:11 means. Is “Gentiles in the flesh” (RSV/‌ESV) better? Is there even any long-term gain through working out, through much study and many readings, Paul’s range of meaning in his use of sarx? Would Paul, who fitted himself into his audience, have wished me to sound like a foreigner by saying “I am English in the flesh”, rather than “I am English by birth”?]

The idea of little tin gods is correct, IMO. C S Lewis’ Out of the Silent Planet, reflects this idea. We each are conceived with an itch to be our own controllers, and although human-to-human slavery can be oppressive, human-to-God slavery, can be true freedom.

I used to ask whether Jesus had had to be ‘born again’. I now see it wasn’t so. But on translating γεννηθη ανωθεν, nowadays I totally reject as reincarnational, the expression ‘born again’: William Tyndale got it right; Nicodemus got it wrong. Jesus used a slightly ambiguous term to test Nicodemus, who kidded that he surely couldn’t be born again, to which Jesus replied that Nicodemus should as an OT scholar really have seen his meaning as spiritual newness, from above, born anew in that sense, not an again-repeat sense. Indeed no one had at that time been born anew, and Nicodemus was already in God’s kingdom at a Sinai level. Jesus spoke of a new level of kingdom, the messianic level which Nicodemus expected soon to arrive, and into which merely being a Sinaite was insufficient: no one can enter or even see the messianic kingdom unless they are born by the spirit, and no one could enter the messianic kingdom until messiah set it up. The OT prophets and Yeshua spoke of the plan they knew.

Within this kingdom we are messianic children of God—again filiality to God has levels of meaning. Yet we still have a nature which is unfit for ultimate salvation to come. In Galatians/Ephesians, from the NIV I noted 41 vices to sort out, and 41 virtues to enjoy, and it hit me that these things would not have been said to Christians, unless necessary! These are…

Say No to hypocrisy, biting & devouring each other, sexual immorality, impurity, dissensions, debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, conceit, provocation, sowing to the sinful nature, insensitivity, old self, lust, falsehood, stealing, unwholesome talk, grieving the spirit, bitterness, rage, anger, brawling, slander, malice, greed, obscenity, foolish talk, coarse talking, foolishness, exasperating your children, threatening your servants, sleeping on anger.

Say Yes to serving each other, loving your neighbour as yourself, living by the spirit, living a life of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self‑control, keeping in step with the spirit, restoring out‑of‑step believers, carrying each other’s burdens, carrying our own load, sowing to the spirit, humility, bearing with each other in love, aiming at keeping unity, building folk up, letting the spirit change us, putting on Christ, obeying your husbands, holiness, truthfulness, being good to your servants, working for your living, loving your wives, compassion, forgiveness, imitation of God, obeying your parents, training up your children, righteousness, heartily obeying your masters, aiming to please God, wisdom, singing to each other, giving thanks to God, submitting to each other.

We qualify for heaven through the cross, and by grace through the cross and by the spirit, we are Christians under construction, forming a new σαρξ. I stand amazed in the presence of Jesus the Nazarene.

As you say, it is sooo important for us that we walk by the spirit, and not by our old Adamic nature.



[1] Some condemn the TNIV as if it promoted the anti-Semitist idea that Paul wasn’t Jewish. But the context of Rm.11:14, in the TNIV, makes it very clear that he was ethnically Jewish. Real readers are unlikely to be mislead; proof-texters may wish to be misled.
 
The information you seek is located in post No.7, to wit: Col 2:11 describes an
operation performed by the hand of God wherein the hand of man is given no role.

That is an extremely valuable operation because there are folks in this world with
some very disagreeable tendencies the likes of Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ed
Kemper etc. who would never be allowed to associate with God in their natural
condition. But with the normal core of their being removed, and replaced with the
divine nature spoken of by 2Pet 1:4, they'd be good to go.
_
The information you seek is located in post No.7, to wit: Col 2:11 describes an
operation performed by the hand of God wherein the hand of man is given no role.

That is an extremely valuable operation because there are folks in this world with
some very disagreeable tendencies the likes of Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ed
Kemper etc. who would never be allowed to associate with God in their natural
condition. But with the normal core of their being removed, and replaced with the
divine nature spoken of by 2Pet 1:4, they'd be good to go.
_
I see now, the "exit" you were referring to was the death of your vessel.
But why wait for something, (the end of the "human's nature"), by physical death, when you can be a partaker of it now through baptism into Christ's death and resurrection ?
 
But why wait for something, (the end of the "human's nature"), by physical death, when you can
be a partaker of it now through baptism into Christ's death and resurrection ?

I do not wish to continue this conversation. Sorry.
_
 
Back
Top